Split: Another Marian Debate

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Trinity and hypostatic union both were alluded to with frequency, unlike Assumption and perpetual virginity.
Go to the Scripture and read about the requiremernt that the Altar of Sacrifice and and the ark of the covenenat be housed in a perfect, purified tabernacle. Do you really beleive that God would require a perfect tabernacle for a slab of stone and gold inlaid chest containing religious artifiacts but would not require the same for the tabernacle(Mary’s Womb) he placed his only begotten Son in???

Of course Mary was conceived without original sin-to place the Son of God in anything less than a purified tabernalce would be blashpemy. To allow another child conceived with origiinal sin to later occupy this tabernacle would likewise be an afront to God.

Now go to Genesis. Here is it clearly stated that the wages of sin are death and corruption of the Body. Mary, the perfect , uncorrupted tabernacle would neither have to die or have her body corrupted.

Mary’s perpetual Virignity, the Assumption and Imaculate Conception are more clearly supported by Scripture than the false Doctrines of Sola Fidelis nad Sola Scriptura clung so blindly to by Protestants.
 
Trinity and hypostatic union both were alluded to with frequency, unlike Assumption and perpetual virginity.
I would disagree that Mary’s perpetual virginity is not alluded to. I can think of numerous indications.
IMHO the Assumption occurred long after the writings of the Bible so why would it mention it? It doesn’t mention what happened to most of the Apostles either.
 
The pereptual virginity of Mary was upheld by several Church Fathers, can be documented back to the Second Century A.D., is taught by the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and was upheld by Martin Luther and John Calvin.

The Assumption, in documentary form, can be traced back to the fourth century and is taught by the Eastern Orthdodox Church as well. The fact that there is no documentary evidence prior to the fourth century does not mean that it cannot be traced to the apostolic age. The incident involving Moses and Satan (Jude) was recorded in an Apocryphal source dating back to the first centruy B.C. And yet, Jude quotes it as being true. How was it preserved all those centuries, since it was not recorded in the Bible? Orally!

While the Trinity and Hypostatic Union were alluded to, the terminology we use to define the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union were not present in the Bible and appeared several centuries later.

The Bible itself wasn’t formally canonized until the fourth century. There was no unanimity among Christians regarding what book s belonged in the Bible. It was the Church that finalized the canon. The same Church that believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, the intercession of the saints, baptismal regeneration, etc.

God Bless,
Michael
Long story short, you agree!
 
IMHO the Assumption occurred long after the writings of the Bible so why would it mention it? .
How old do you think Mary lived, oops I mean how old was she b4 assumption?
in 33 she was 46
in 60 she’d be 79
in 80 she’d be 99
Most of the books were written 60-80.
This makes zero sense.
 
I’m not being disrespectful! I am stating my POV, I didn’t praying to her was satanic. Go reread it.
Only that everything we believe about her is - Mother of God etc etc. How is that not the most heinous disrespect to the Catholics here who have graciously permitted you to join our forum?

Unlike, I may add, numerous Protestant fora where Catholics are not even allowed to sign up!
 
How old do you think Mary lived, oops I mean how old was she b4 assumption?
in 33 she was 46
in 60 she’d be 79
in 80 she’d be 99
Most of the books were written 60-80.
This makes zero sense.
55 Romans, I Corinthians,

c. 57 II Corinthians, James (40 - 60 A.D.)

c. 60 Mark, Luke, John, Colossians, Ephesians, Philippians, Philemon

c. 62 I Timothy, II Timothy, Acts, Titus,

c. 64 I Peter

c. 66 II Peter

c. 68 to 80 Hebrews

c. 90 I John, II John, III John, Jude

c. 95 Revelation
 
Only that everything we believe about her is - Mother of God etc etc. How is that not the most heinous disrespect to the Catholics here who have graciously permitted you to join our forum?

Unlike, I may add, numerous Protestant fora where Catholics are not even allowed to sign up!
Knock it off, I apologized and asked to be forgiven.
 
Many Catholic attitudes owards Mary amounts to worship
  1. they pray to he
  2. neel before her image
  3. trust in her for salvation
  4. attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone
No you got it all wrong.
  1. They ask Mary to pray for us.
  2. Kneeling is reflecting the life of Mary since she followed a good example of a first Christian. We honor her and we do not worship her the way we worship God.
  3. Her titles only reflect on how important her role is as the Mother of God, Jesus, who is both True God, and True Man. In the Litany of the Virgin Mary, these titles does not make her superior or equal to God.
Catholics do not believe that she is a savior. There is no Catholic Church teaching or document that claim she is.
 
Only that everything we believe about her is - Mother of God etc etc. How is that not the most heinous disrespect to the Catholics here who have graciously permitted you to join our forum?

Unlike, I may add, numerous Protestant fora where Catholics are not even allowed to sign up!
Come over to Carm your always welcome.
 
How old do you think Mary lived, oops I mean how old was she b4 assumption?
in 33 she was 46
in 60 she’d be 79
in 80 she’d be 99
Most of the books were written 60-80.
This makes zero sense.
The Death of Paul is not wtritten about in scripture. Does that mean it didnt happen. Peters Crucifixion is not mentioned in Scripture . Does that mean it did not happen.?

Why would God place his Son in a dirty tabernacle?
 
This thought brings me to the question of the Assumption. Again, having read the Dogma on the Assumption a few things stand out that this Dogma is rooted in Divine Revelation. However, I must admit by saying this I am also confirming my belief in what the Catholic Church teaches ( I am Catholic after all) that Revelation comes to us through Scripture and Sacred Tradition. However, from what I understand, although it is not specifically written in the NT the Dogma of the Assumption does have a scriptural foundation (by the way, as Benedict XVI points out in more than one of his writings - Chapter 5 of his "Introduction to Christianity for example - There is no specific mention of the Trinity but this Dogma is rooted in the Tradition of the Church and is found throughout the OT and NT). From what I have read the foundational principle of the Assumption is Christ’s Resurrection. This is the only way the Assumption can be understood, again not as something merited but by special favor (Grace) given to Mary. St Paul’s writings are full of references to our belief in the Resurrection and in the Resurrection is belief that we do not die, life has not ended but merely changed. So in praying to Mary, we are not praying to a dead person, but one who is truely alive. (This my sound a bit cynical, but for those who reject the Assumption on the grounds that it cannot be found in the NT, how do they know the Assumption did not occur until after the Gospels were written?). The belief in the Dogma of the Assumption is rooted in the Resurrection, then I would think it is scriptually based. Also, and this is where my Catholic belief comes in, the Assumption has been a belief in the Church from very ancient times. I am not talking about pious stories but has been proclaimed in the Liturgies of both the East and Western Church. Would the Holy Spirit allow this in the Liturgies of the Church of both East and Western from ancient times if it was not so?

Also, along the lines that Christ is the Way to the Father thus is the sole mediator, first I agree that is how it is. But a couple more points on Mary. As I wrote above, for most Christians we do practice in our every day lives mediation by others. However, Christ already pointed out that this is not wrong. Wasn’t Christ answer to his disciples, when they were unable to exorcise a particular demon that the only way acheive the exorcism (and others like that one) was through prayer and sacrifice? This to me sounds like mediation on the part of his disciples.

Also, I think the concept of mediation is often too one way, that is Man through Christ to the Father. But doesn’t mediation work both ways. Doesn’t the Triune God work through human instruments as well? Most of us here in this forum were born into a Christian Family. Isn’t this the mediation of God to us through human instruments? Wasn’t our Catholic/Christian given to us through human mediation, from parents, teachers people who have inspired us either by their lives or writings or teachings? I think this is another way in which I should look at Mary’s role as mediator. Above I wrote how Mary has served as a guide for ones life to accept God’s will and grow in the understanding of what it means to accept the will of God in my life, I think I pointed out how this type of mediation of Mary is scripturally based.

Also, in God’s plan for us, the first mediator I know we should experience is our mother. Did not Jesus give Mary to us to be our mother in John 19 vs.26-27? In light of this and as I wrote earlier that Mary was the one who Luke has present at the birth of Christ and the Church (Acs) I think there is a scriptural basis for calling Mary the Mother of the Church especially in light that the Church is the Body of Christ, and at Saul’s conversion Christ told Saul that he was persecuting Him (Christ Jesus) when Saul was persecuting the Church.

Is Mary omnipotant? My answer is yes with the understanding that all power she may have is not hers but God’s. Here I would say there is a strong scriptural base as found in the Canticle of Mary (Lk 1: 46 -55) Here Mary is acknowledges that all her power, if power is the correct term, comes from God’s greatness and what he has done for her. She is just His handmaid, but isn’t this the lesson of greatness that Jesus taught the Twelve when he washed their feet?

We are humans, and as such far from perfect. The veneration of Mary, I admit, at times seems like worship or magic and yes this could be a terrible distraction. But this is not the true role the Church understands and teaches about Mary. Not to understand the Church’s true teachings but to hold onto misconceptions, perhaps based on prejudice, for me is not the right thing to do.

I think the best example of Mary and her role in the Church is found in scripture itself, John 2 vs. 5.
 
The Death of Paul is not wtritten about in scripture. Does that mean it didnt happen. Peters Crucifixion is not mentioned in Scripture . Does that mean it did not happen.?

Why would God place his Son in a dirty tabernacle?
Why would God place the Mother of Christ in a dirty human?
 
The Death of Paul is not wtritten about in scripture. Does that mean it didnt happen. Peters Crucifixion is not mentioned in Scripture . Does that mean it did not happen.?

Why would God place his Son in a dirty tabernacle?
I was giving a rebuttal to mousey saying this…

mousey said “IMHO the Assumption occurred long after the writings of the Bible so why would it mention it?”

I was correcting her… unless she meant the 1950’s by long after, but I don’t think she did.
 
The Death of Paul is not wtritten about in scripture. Does that mean it didnt happen. Peters Crucifixion is not mentioned in Scripture . Does that mean it did not happen.?

Why would God place his Son in a dirty tabernacle?
Same reason he’d send his Son to a filthy sinning race of humans.
 
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to His essence, deny also that He took true human flesh from the Ever-Virgin Mary” (St. Athanasius, Discourses Against the Arians, 2:70, c. 358 AD)

“I have heard from someone that certain people dare to say of Mary that after she bore the Savior she had sexual relations with a man. I am not surprised. The ignorance of those who have no exact knowledge of the sacred scripures and who have not applied themselves to the histories turns from one thing to another and distracts the one who wishes to trace something of the truth with his own mind” (Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:7:1; 374 AD)

👍 :cool:
 
John the Baptist was unmarried, the prophet Jeremiah refrained from marriage (Jeremiah 16:1-2) Jewish tradition also tells us that Moses refrained from relations with his wife after encountering God, and that the prophets Elijah and Elisha were never married. So even in Ancient Israel some people clearly chose to remain celibate in order to serve God. Mary did the same.

🙂
 
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to His essence, deny also that He took true human flesh from the Ever-Virgin Mary” (St. Athanasius, Discourses Against the Arians, 2:70, c. 358 AD)

“I have heard from someone that certain people dare to say of Mary that after she bore the Savior she had sexual relations with a man. I am not surprised. The ignorance of those who have no exact knowledge of the sacred scripures and who have not applied themselves to the histories turns from one thing to another and distracts the one who wishes to trace something of the truth with his own mind” (Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:7:1; 374 AD)

👍 :cool:
**Irenaeus refers to Mary giving birth to Jesus when she was **]“as yet a virgin” (Against Heresies, 3:21:10). The implication is that she didn’t remain a virgin. Irenaeus compares **Mary’s being a virgin at the time of Jesus’ birth to the ground being “as yet virgin” before it was tilled by mankind. **The ground thereafter ceased to be virgin, according to Irenaeus, when it was tilled. The implication is that Mary also ceased to be a virgin. Elsewhere, Irenaeus writes:

“**To this effect they testify, saying, that before Joseph had come together with Mary, while she therefore remained in virginity, ‘she was found with child **of the Holy Ghost;’” (Against Heresies, 3:21:4)

Irenaeus seems to associate “come together” with sexual intercourse. The implication is that Joseph and Mary had normal marital relations after Jesus was born.
 
**Irenaeus refers to Mary giving birth to Jesus when she was **]“as yet a virgin”
(Against Heresies, 3:21:10). The implication is that she didn’t remain a virgin. Irenaeus compares **Mary’s being a virgin at the time of Jesus’ birth to the ground being “as yet virgin” before it was tilled by mankind. **The ground thereafter ceased to be virgin, according to Irenaeus, when it was tilled. The implication is that Mary also ceased to be a virgin. Elsewhere, Irenaeus writes:

“**To this effect they testify, saying, that before Joseph had come together with Mary, while she therefore remained in virginity, ‘she was found with child **of the Holy Ghost;’” (Against Heresies, 3:21:4)

Irenaeus seems to associate “come together” with sexual intercourse. The implication is that Joseph and Mary had normal marital relations after Jesus was born.

Ireneaus is older I win
Merry Christmas
 
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