Split: Another Marian Debate

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The_Catholic said:
I could go on and on but these should sum things up. It is crystal clear that the early church were very “Catholic” similar to the Catholic Church today. What John Henery Cardinal Newman said: “To study church history is to cease to be Protestant,” is in fact quite true.

Please read these writtings slowly, clearly, and thoroughly and you should see their Light. I’m sure anti-catholics will twist and turn the church fathers writtings anyways just to fit their own agenda, just like so many people do to the Holy Bible. But I think it’s clear that the early church fathers were far more “Catholic” like the Catholic Church of today than the Protestant churches of today. The early Church fathers were far more “Orthodox” like the Orthodox Church of today than they were Protestant. It’s very clear, and very simple.

God bless you.
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Sure, you can take a few passages from the early church and try to show that they were “Catholic”, we all know that they thought like Protestants.
If you don’t believe me then listen to some James White’s debates. You can quote the early fathers all you want, but I can quote James White.
😉

sorry, just joking.
 
The_Catholic said:
I could go on and on but these should sum things up. It is crystal clear that the early church were very “Catholic” similar to the Catholic Church today. What John Henery Cardinal Newman said: “To study church history is to cease to be Protestant,” is in fact quite true.

Please read these writtings slowly, clearly, and thoroughly and you should see their Light. I’m sure anti-catholics will twist and turn the church fathers writtings anyways just to fit their own agenda, just like so many people do to the Holy Bible. But I think it’s clear that the early church fathers were far more “Catholic” like the Catholic Church of today than the Protestant churches of today. The early Church fathers were far more “Orthodox” like the Orthodox Church of today than they were Protestant. It’s very clear, and very simple.

God bless you.
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The Catholic- May God bless you and keep you strong in body, mind, and spirit, that you may continue leading souls to Him. Amen
 
runandsew said:
Sure, you can take a few passages from the early church and try to show that they were “Catholic”, we all know that they thought like Protestants.
If you don’t believe me then listen to some James White’s debates. You can quote the early fathers all you want, but I can quote James White.
😉

sorry, just joking.
Click to expand...
At first I thought you were serious until I looked at your profile and saw that you were Catholic. But I’m sure we are going to hear coments like that from serious Protestants. They will interpret obvious truth that’s so clear to see and delude it to fit their own “personal” beliefs.

Watch, they’ll be coming 🙂

God bless you
 
Well done, but not so fast.

For space reasons, I shall simply refer you to another website. Fortunately, I don’t have to show all the Church Fathers agreed at all times with the Evangelical position. According to Trent, I just have to show that some did. Trent said the burdon of proof is on the RC church to show that they are in substantial agreement, as I am sure you know.

All of the following can be seen as disagreeing in part or entirely with current teaching from the RC church and more in line with the Evangelical position: Alexander of Alexandria (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/23/02)
Ambrose (the sinlessness of Mary, 8/29/02)
Ambrose (original sin, 9/3/02)
Ambrose (the atonement, 11/3/02)
Ambrose (salvation, 11/15/02)
Ambrose (sola scriptura, 3/12/03)
Ambrose (salvation, 3/15/03)
Ambrose (the perspicuity of scripture, 5/1/03)
Ambrosiaster (eternal security, 4/5/03)
Ambrosiaster (eschatology, 5/3/03)
Amphilochius (the canon, 4/26/03)
Anastasius (the papacy, 6/25/02)
Aphrahat (Purgatory, 1/12/03)
Aphrahat (scripture interpretation, 2/6/03)
Apostolic Constitutions (papal infallibility, 7/6/02)
Apostolic Constitutions (moral requirements for bishops, 8/3/02)
Apostolic Constitutions (the canon, 11/27/02)
Apostolic Constitutions (the canon, 12/2/02)
Apostolic Constitutions (ecumenism, 2/12/03)
Apostolic Constitutions (the papacy, 2/28/03)
Apostolic Constitutions (baptism, 3/23/03)
Archelaus (the papacy, 6/21/02)
Aristides (infant salvation, 3/24/03)
Arnobius (Hell, 6/6/02)
Arnobius (veneration of images, 12/23/02)
Arnobius (salvation, 3/30/03)
Arnobius (the perspicuity of scripture, 4/8/03)
Athanasius (tradition, 6/16/02)
Athanasius (the canon, 7/16/02)
Athanasius (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/22/02)
Athanasius (unity, 8/14/02)
Athanasius (discerning the canon, 10/8/02)
Athanasius (the faithfulness of Rome, 11/11/02)
Athanasius (baptism, 2/17/03)
Athenagoras (discerning the canon, 10/10/02)
Athenagoras (veneration of images, 12/25/02)
Athenagoras (marriage, 12/27/02)
Athenagoras (Purgatory, 1/15/03)
Athenagoras (prayer to the dead, 1/20/03)
Athenagoras (the eucharist, 2/5/03)
Augustine (authority, 5/19/02)
Augustine (papal infallibility, 7/8/02)
Augustine (the papacy, 7/9/02)
Augustine (the papacy, 7/10/02)
Augustine (John 19:26-27, 7/14/02)
Augustine (John 16:13, 7/15/02)
Augustine (the canon, 7/18/02)
Augustine (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/27/02)
Augustine (sola scriptura, 8/6/02)
Augustine (sola scriptura, 8/23/02)
Augustine (the sinlessness of Mary, 8/30/02)
Augustine (John 6, 9/4/02)
Augustine (the eucharist, 9/10/02)
Augustine (the church, 9/25/02)
Augustine (discerning the canon, 10/9/02)
Augustine (the phrase “man of God”, 11/1/02)
Augustine (the atonement, 11/5/02)
Augustine (infant salvation, 11/30/02)
Augustine (infant salvation, 12/1/02)
Augustine (Psalm 132, 12/12/02)
Augustine (Psalm 45, 12/13/02)
Augustine (the perspicuity of scripture, 12/20/02)
Augustine (interpretation of scripture, 12/21/02)
Augustine (when life begins, 12/30/02)
Augustine (salvation, 1/21/03)
Augustine (Purgatory, 1/28/03)
Augustine (sin, 4/9/03)
Augustine (penance, 4/12/03)
Augustine (eschatology, 4/15/03)
Basil (the sinlessness of Mary, 5/20/02)
Basil (tradition, 6/17/02)
Basil (the papacy, 8/31/02)
Basil (John 6, 9/7/02)
Basil (the papacy, 9/8/02)
Basil (the perspicuity of scripture, 9/27/02)
Basil (marriage, 12/28/02)
Basil (penance, 2/16/03)
Basil (baptism, 3/21/03)

You can follow the link:

ntrmin.org/catholic_but_not_roman_catholic_index_by_writer.htm
 
Callistus (the Trinity, 2/27/03)
Callistus (clerical celibacy, 3/31/03)
Church of Smyrna (Purgatory, 8/27/02)
Clement of Alexandria (original sin, 6/5/02)
Clement of Alexandria (sola scriptura, 8/7/02)
Clement of Alexandria (John 6, 9/5/02)
Clement of Alexandria (the eucharist, 9/11/02)
Clement of Alexandria (veneration of images, 9/20/02)
Clement of Alexandria (the church, 9/24/02)
Clement of Alexandria (the sinlessness of Mary, 10/2/02)
Clement of Alexandria (discerning the canon, 10/24/02)
Clement of Alexandria (tradition, 10/28/02)
Clement of Alexandria (salvation, 11/6/02)
Clement of Alexandria (salvation, 11/14/02)
Clement of Alexandria (prayer to the dead, 1/24/03)
Clement of Alexandria (baptism, 3/22/03)
Clement of Alexandria (ecumenism, 5/7/03)
Clement of Rome (salvation, 8/9/02)
Clement of Rome (confession of sins, 8/10/02)
Clement of Rome (Purgatory, 8/25/02)
Clement of Rome (church government, 2/9/03)
Commodianus (eschatology, 6/27/02)
Commodianus (Purgatory, 1/16/03)
Council of Ancyra (penance, 5/9/03)
Council of Antioch (the papacy, 5/8/03)
Council of Carthage (the papacy, 5/14/03)
Council of Chalcedon (papal legitimacy, 5/16/03)
Council of Chalcedon (the papacy, 5/17/03)
Council of Constantinople (unity, 8/16/02)
Council of Constantinople (the papacy, 5/10/03)
Council of Constantinople (baptism, 5/11/03)
Council of Jerusalem (the papacy, 6/24/02)
Council of Laodicea (baptism, 5/12/03)
Council of Laodicea (ecumenism, 5/13/03)
Cyprian (the papacy, 5/18/02)
Cyprian (the papacy, 7/4/02)
Cyprian (the papacy, 7/5/02)
Cyprian (the eucharist, 9/9/02)
Cyprian (authority, 10/22/02)
Cyprian (eschatology, 11/25/02)
Cyprian (infant communion, 11/29/02)
Cyprian (killing, 1/2/03)
Cyprian (baptism, 1/8/03)
Cyprian (Purgatory, 1/17/03)
Cyprian (prayer to the dead, 1/25/03)
Cyprian (succession of truth, 1/30/03)
Cyprian (church government, 2/10/03)
Cyprian (sola scriptura, 3/6/03)
Cyprian (prayer, 3/7/03)
Cyprian (the eucharist, 3/8/03)
Cyprian (salvation, 3/9/03)
Cyprian (penance, 4/11/03)
Cyprian (ecumenism, 4/16/03)
Cyril of Alexandria (the sinlessness of Mary, 4/23/03)
Cyril of Jerusalem (the canon, 7/19/02)
Cyril of Jerusalem (sola scriptura, 8/5/02)
Cyril of Jerusalem (baptism, 2/18/03)
Cyril of Jerusalem (the sinlessness of Mary, 3/26/03)
The Didache (the resurrection of the dead, 10/6/02)
The Didache (authority, 10/21/02)
The Didache (church government, 2/8/03)
Dionysius of Alexandria (sola scriptura, 6/4/02)
Dionysius of Alexandria (baptism, 1/10/03)
Dionysius of Alexandria (the Trinity, 3/19/03)
Dionysius of Alexandria (ecumenism, 4/1/03)
Dionysius of Alexandria (succession of truth, 4/3/03)
Dionysius of Rome (the perspicuity of scripture, 9/30/02)
Ephraim (the sinlessness of Mary, 12/11/02)
Epiphanius (the papacy, 6/26/02)
Epiphanius (veneration of images, 9/22/02)
Epiphanius (the Assumption of Mary, 5/2/03)
The Epistle of Barnabas (eschatology, 6/28/02)
The Epistle of Barnabas (tradition, 8/18/02)
The Epistle of Barnabas (the canon, 12/4/02)
Eusebius (the canon, 12/7/02)
Eusebius (the eucharist, 3/16/03)
Eusebius (the eucharist, 3/17/03)
Eusebius (the deity of Christ, 3/18/03)
Eusebius (veneration of images, 4/10/03)
Firmilian (tradition, 6/14/02)
Firmilian (unity, 8/15/02)
Firmilian (baptism, 1/9/03)
Gaius (the canon, 11/26/02)
Gaius (the perspicuity of scripture, 1/19/03)
Gelasius (the eucharist, 4/20/03)
Gregory the Great (Mary’s relationship with Jesus, 4/21/03)
Gregory Nazianzen (infant baptism, 5/28/02)
Gregory Nazianzen (authority, 10/20/02)
Gregory Nazianzen (the phrase “man of God”, 11/2/02)
Gregory Nazianzen (the sinlessness of Mary, 3/27/03)
Gregory Nazianzen (the canon, 4/25/03)
Gregory of Nyssa (Satan, 6/7/02)
Gregory of Nyssa (the perspicuity of scripture, 11/20/02)
Gregory of Nyssa (sola scriptura, 4/6/03)
Gregory Thaumaturgus (Mary as mediator, 2/15/03)
Gregory Thaumaturgus (Purgatory, 3/25/03)

You can follow the link:

ntrmin.org/catholic_but_not_roman_catholic_index_by_writer.htm
 
Hegesippus (the perpetual virginity of Mary, 8/20/02)
Hegesippus (succession of truth, 4/2/03)
Hermas (tradition, 6/18/02)
Hermas (marriage, 12/29/02)
Hermas (salvation, 3/29/03)
Hilary of Poitiers (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/30/02)
Hilary of Poitiers (the perspicuity of scripture, 12/22/02)
Hilary of Poitiers (sola scriptura, 4/24/03)
Hilary of Poitiers (the sinlessness of Mary, 5/5/03)
Hippolytus (sola scriptura, 8/4/02)
Hippolytus (unity, 8/11/02)
Hippolytus (the ark of the covenant as typology, 10/5/02)
Hippolytus (eschatology, 10/12/02)
Hippolytus (Purgatory, 10/15/02)
Hippolytus (Revelation 12, 12/9/02)
Hippolytus (eschatology, 2/20/03)
Hippolytus (the papacy, 3/1/03)
Hippolytus (the church, 5/4/03)
Ignatius (the papacy, 5/23/02)
Ignatius (the papacy, 6/22/02)
Ignatius (authority, 10/17/02)
Ignatius (salvation, 1/23/03)
Ignatius (salvation, 2/21/03)
Ignatius (ecumenism, 3/10/03)
Irenaeus (the papacy, 5/21/02)
Irenaeus (the millennium, 5/29/02)
Irenaeus (the atonement, 6/8/02)
Irenaeus (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/24/02)
Irenaeus (the perpetual virginity of Mary, 8/21/02)
Irenaeus (Purgatory, 8/28/02)
Irenaeus (the eucharist, 9/12/02)
Irenaeus (the ark of the covenant as typology, 10/4/02)
Irenaeus (authority, 10/18/02)
Irenaeus (the canon, 10/30/02)
Irenaeus (the atonement, 11/4/02)
Irenaeus (John 2:4, 12/16/02)
Irenaeus (infant salvation, 1/5/03)
Irenaeus (ecumenism, 2/22/03)
Irenaeus (veneration of images, 2/26/03)
Irenaeus (sola scriptura, 3/3/03)
Irenaeus (penance, 4/13/03)
Irenaeus (the eucharist, 4/29/03)
Jerome (the papacy, 6/1/02)
Jerome (the papacy, 6/23/02)
Jerome (the canon, 7/17/02)
Jerome (unity, 8/13/02)
Jerome (marriage, 8/19/02)
Jerome (apostolic succession, 9/19/02)
Jerome (unity, 11/8/02)
Jerome (the faithfulness of Rome, 11/10/02)
Jerome (the sinlessness of Mary, 12/17/02)
Jerome (overpopulation, 1/1/03)
Jerome (eternal security, 4/4/03)
Jerome (sola scriptura, 4/7/03)
John Cassian (the perspicuity of scripture, 11/18/02)
John Chrysostom (the papacy, 5/27/02)
John Chrysostom (the sinlessness of Mary, 7/1/02)
John Chrysostom (the papacy, 7/3/02)
John Chrysostom (John 19:26-27, 7/13/02)
John Chrysostom (Romans 1:8, 7/21/02)
John Chrysostom (interpretation of scripture, 7/31/02)
John Chrysostom (Acts 8:30-31, 8/1/02)
John Chrysostom (the distribution of scripture, 8/2/02)
John Chrysostom (salvation, 9/13/02)
John Chrysostom (the perspicuity of scripture, 9/21/02)
John Chrysostom (the phrase “man of God”, 10/31/02)
John Chrysostom (the papacy, 11/7/02)
John Chrysostom (unity, 11/9/02)
John Chrysostom (the status of Mary, 12/15/02)
John Chrysostom (Matthew 20:23, 12/18/02)
John Chrysostom (salvation, 1/22/03)
John Chrysostom (infant salvation, 2/13/03)
John of Damascus (the canon, 7/20/02)
John of Damascus (tradition, 10/25/02)
John of Damascus (the canon, 10/26/02)
Julius Africanus (the perspicuity of scripture, 11/23/02)
Julius Africanus (discerning the canon, 11/24/02)
Justin Martyr (the millennium, 5/30/02)
Justin Martyr (the church, 6/2/02)
Justin Martyr (the eucharist, 6/30/02)
Justin Martyr (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/26/02)
Justin Martyr (Purgatory, 10/14/02)
Justin Martyr (infant baptism, 12/19/02)
Justin Martyr (veneration of images, 2/11/03)
Justin Martyr (sola scriptura, 3/2/03)
Justin Martyr (the sinlessness of Mary, 3/28/03)

ntrmin.org/catholic_but_not_roman_catholic_index_by_writer.htm
 
Lactantius (veneration of images, 6/13/02)
Lactantius (prayer to the dead, 7/12/02)
Lactantius (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/25/02)
Lactantius (eschatology, 9/17/02)
Lactantius (Purgatory, 10/16/02)
Lactantius (killing, 12/26/02)
Lactantius (salvation, 2/7/03)
Lactantius (the church, 2/24/03)
Lactantius (Israel’s future, 3/14/03)
Lactantius (the Trinity, 4/27/03)
Leo I (the sinlessness of Mary, 10/1/02)
Leo I (doctrines and disciplines, 4/18/03)
Leo I (canon 6 of Nicaea, 4/19/03)
Mathetes (salvation, 8/8/02)
Melito of Sardis (the canon, 5/26/02)
Melito of Sardis (discerning the canon, 10/7/02)
Melito of Sardis (the perspicuity of scripture, 1/29/03)
Methodius (eschatology, 10/13/02)
Methodius (Revelation 12, 12/8/02)
Minucius Felix (veneration of images, 2/1/03)
Minucius Felix (Purgatory, 2/2/03)
Minucius Felix (salvation, 2/3/03)
Minucius Felix (the eucharist, 2/4/03)
Nepos (eschatology, 9/18/02)
Origen (the papacy, 5/25/02)
Origen (the papacy, 6/20/02)
Origen (prayer to the dead, 7/11/02)
Origen (unity, 8/12/02)
Origen (Mary as mediator, 10/3/02)
Origen (the perspicuity of scripture, 10/27/02)
Origen (the canon, 10/29/02)
Origen (the soul, 11/28/02)
Origen (salvation, 12/3/02)
Origen (veneration of images, 12/24/02)
Origen (marriage, 1/4/03)
Origen (the historicity of scripture, 1/11/03)
Origen (Purgatory, 1/14/03)
Origen (the fall, 2/14/03)
Origen (the Trinity, 3/20/03)
Origen (eschatology, 4/14/03)
Origen (the sinlessness of Mary, 4/22/03)
Origen (the resurrection, 4/30/03)
Origen (the eucharist, 5/6/03)
Paphnutius (clerical celibacy, 11/22/02)
Papias (tradition, 6/15/02)
Papias (Purgatory, 8/24/02)
Papias (eschatology, 9/16/02)
Peter of Alexandria (church discipline, 4/17/03)
Phileas (the papacy, 1/18/03)
Polycarp (Purgatory, 8/26/02)
Polycarp (church discipline, 10/23/02)
Polycarp (salvation, 11/17/02)
Polycarp (ecumenism, 3/11/03)
Polycrates (the papacy, 5/24/02)
Roman Church (the canon, 6/19/02)
Roman Church (penance, 11/21/02)
Rufinus (the canon, 6/3/02)
Second Council of Constantinople (unity, 8/17/02)
Second Council of Nicaea (papal legitimacy, 5/15/03)
Socrates Scholasticus (clerical celibacy, 5/31/02)
Socrates Scholasticus (salvation, 11/16/02)
Sozomen (the faithfulness of Rome, 11/12/02)
Tatian (the recognition of scripture, 9/28/02)
Tatian (the afterlife, 9/29/02)
Tertullian (the papacy, 5/22/02)
Tertullian (the sinlessness of Mary, 6/9/02)
Tertullian (veneration of images, 6/12/02)
Tertullian (the papacy, 7/2/02)
Tertullian (papal infallibility, 7/7/02)
Tertullian (the perpetual virginity of Mary, 8/22/02)
Tertullian (infant baptism, 9/2/02)
Tertullian (John 6, 9/6/02)
Tertullian (salvation, 9/14/02)
Tertullian (eschatology, 9/15/02)
Tertullian (authority, 10/19/02)
Tertullian (confession of sins, 11/13/02)
Tertullian (the canon, 12/5/02)
Tertullian (Luke 11:28, 12/14/02)
Tertullian (overpopulation, 12/31/02)
Tertullian (marriage, 1/3/03)
Tertullian (infant salvation, 1/6/03)
Tertullian (baptism, 1/7/03)
Tertullian (Purgatory, 1/13/03)
Tertullian (prayer to the dead, 1/26/03)
Tertullian (the church, 2/23/03)
Tertullian (the faithfulness of Rome, 2/25/03)
Tertullian (succession of truth, 3/4/03)
Tertullian (tradition, 3/5/03)
Tertullian (the status of Mary, 3/13/03)
Tertullian (the eucharist, 4/28/03)
Theodoret (the eucharist, 6/10/02)
Theodoret (sola scriptura, 6/11/02)
Theodoret (Mary, 6/29/02)
Theodoret (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/28/02)
Theodoret (the perspicuity of scripture, 7/29/02)
Theodoret (the papacy, 9/23/02)
Theodoret (tradition, 9/26/02)
Theonas (the perspicuity of scripture, 2/19/03)
Theophilus of Antioch (the eucharist, 9/1/02)
Theophilus of Antioch (the perspicuity of scripture, 11/19/02)
Victorinus (eschatology, 10/11/02)
Victorinus (the canon, 12/6/02)
Victorinus (Revelation 12, 12/10/02)
Victorinus (Purgatory, 1/27/03)
Victorinus (Revelation 11:19, 1/31/03)

ntrmin.org/catholic_but_not_roman_catholic_index_by_writer.htm
 
I didn’t know anyone still read the NTRMIN. website. Eric Svendsen took a little hiatus a while back when he was defeated in the heos hou debacle against Robert Sungenis.

In any event, please JesusForMadrid, take it to the Eastern Catholicism forums on Catholic Answers and as them if St. John Chrysostom or St. Ambrose were Evangelicals. 😃 Please, I really am asking you.

Secondly, quite a few of the men mentioned in your list were Popes: Clement of Rome, Leo I and Gregory the Great.

Thirdly, St. Augustine, St. Ambrose and St. Jerome are doctors of the Catholic Church. Why don’t you read the multitude of quotes from these Early Church Fathers at www.scripturecatholic.com to find out why Eric Svendsen’s website has failed with this “list”?

Let’s see just how “Evangelical” the ECFs you listed actually were. (A miracle if they were I’d say, since Evangelical Protestantism didn’t even exist in their day.)

I’ll examine each of the ECFs and see just how “Evangelical” or not in following posts.
 
St. Ambrose on the Primacy of Peter
“But he was not so eager as to lay aside caution. He called the bishop to him, and esteeming that there can be no true thankfulness except it spring from true faith, he enquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is, with the Roman Church?” *Ambrose, The death of his brother Satyrus, 1:47 (A.D. 378). *
“Your grace must be besought not to permit any disturbance of the Roman Church, the head of the whole Roman World and of the most holy faith of the Apostles, for from thence flow out to all (churches) the bonds of sacred communion.” *Ambrose, To Emperor Gratian, Epistle 11:4 (A.D. 381). *

“For they [Novatians] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.’” *Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, 7:33 (A.D. 384). *

ST. AMBROSE IS AFFIRMING THE PAPACY
St. Ambrose on the Real Presence in the Eucharist:
“Perhaps you will say, ‘I see something else, how is it that you assert that I receive the Body of Christ?’ And this is the point which remains for us to prove. And what evidence shall we make use of? Let us prove that this is not what nature made, but what the blessing consecrated, and the power of blessing is greater than that of nature, because by blessing nature itself is changed…The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: ‘This is My Body.’ Before the blessing of the heavenly words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body is signified. He Himself speaks of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood. And you say, Amen, that is, It is true. Let the heart within confess what the mouth utters, let the soul feel what the voice speaks.” *Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 9:50 (A.D. 390-391). *
*
St. Ambrose on Justification by Grace through Faith and Works:

“You see indeed, then, how the strength of the Lord is cooperative in human endeavors, so that no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can undertake anything without the Lord.” *Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, 2:84 (A.D. 389). *

St. Ambrose Salvation through faith and works, not faith alone:

“Innocence, then, and knowledge make a man blessed. We have also noted already that the blessedness of eternal life is the reward for good works…Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.’ And again: ‘He that will come after Me, let him take up his cross and follow Me.’” *Ambrose, Duties of the Clergy, 3:9 (c. A.D. 391). *

ST. AMBROSE WAS AN “EVANGELICAL PROTESTANT”? NO!
 
The origin of the Apostolic Constitutions and legitimacy of their authority is a matter of debate. The pretended compiler was St. Clement of Rome. Since the Trullan Council in 692 rejected the work on account of the interpolations of heretics, I am not going to spend any more time responding to the assertion that they were Evangelical Protestant in belief.

I suggest you research the controversy over the “Apostolic Confessions” rather than rely on Eric Svendsen’s website to sell you their legitimacy:

newadvent.org/cathen/01636a.htm

I’ll follow with the next ECF in alphabetic order as soon as I have time to spend on this claim that these ECFs were Evangelical Protestants.
 
I don’t rely on Erik Svendson, but a researcher of his has put much of the patristic authors in searchable format, which is nice.

For a good treatment of how this subject, I would suggest Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today’s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity by David W. Bercot. You can read the reviews on Amazon, he is pretty honest where the Early Church doesn’t agree with modern some Evangelical strands (e.g. on baptism and the Real Presence).
 
JesusforMadrid said:
I don’t rely on Erik Svendson, but a researcher of his has put much of the patristic authors in searchable format, which is nice.
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Eric Svendsen has a phony Ph.D. which he purchased. He is not a scholar and his “credentials” are dishonest. He’s been revealed for having a phony degree from a diploma mill. I’ve looked through your list from Mr. Svendsen. The amount of quotes from the ECFs that illustrate that they were Catholic in belief and practice is way too overwhelming for me to post here. I was going to list each one with a few quotes from each to contradict Svendsen’s assessment that the ECFs were Evangelical Protestant in thought, but there is so much to contradict his assertions that it would literally take me days post the lists!
For a good treatment of how this subject, I would suggest Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today’s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity by David W. Bercot. You can read the reviews on Amazon, he is pretty honest where the Early Church doesn’t agree with modern some Evangelical strands (e.g. on baptism and the Real Presence).
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Are you sure you’re not relying on Mr. Svendsen blog to supply all the answers? He champions that “book” on his blog.

Here is a critique of David W. Bercot’s “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up”:

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bercot.aspx
 
Eden said:
Eric Svendsen has a phony Ph.D. which he purchased. He is not a scholar and his “credentials” are dishonest. He’s been revealed for having a phony degree from a diploma mill. I’ve looked through your list from Mr. Svendsen. The amount of quotes from the ECFs that illustrate that they were Catholic in belief and practice is way too overwhelming for me to post here. I was going to list each one with a few quotes from each to contradict Svendsen’s assessment that the ECFs were Evangelical Protestant in thought, but there is so much to contradict his assertions that it would literally take me days post the lists!

Are you sure you’re not relying on Mr. Svendsen blog to supply all the answers? He champions that “book” on his blog.

Here is a critique of David W. Bercot’s “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up”:

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bercot.aspx
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As I wrote, I have not relied on Svendsen but rather his associate’s rather convenient summary of the Early Church Father’s views on various issues.

Um Eden, I respect your interest in church history. But this is hardly a damning critique of David W. Bercot’s perspective on Marian dogma. This critique focuses on if there is apostolic succession in the Anglican church, (i) a relatively minor point in Bercot’s book and (ii) absolutely irrelevant to this thread!

The fact is that pre-nicene church history does not support many of the current doctrine of the RC church, including Marian devotion, sinlessness, immaculate conception, perpetual virginity and assumption. This is clear and casting doubt on Svendsen’s credentials does not change this fact.

Again, I recommend that you read Bercot’s book.
 
The early church fathers writtings in harmony with the CURRENT Catholic Church:

The Sacraments in general:
St. Theophilus of Antioch
Tertullian
St. Cyprian
St. John Chrysostom
St. Augustine
St. Ambrose
St. Basil
St. Jerome
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
St. Fulgentius
St. Gregory Nazianzen
Novatian
Aphraates
Firmilian
St. Gregory the Great
Origen

Baptism:
The Didache
Letter to Barnabas
St. Justin Martyr
Tertullian
Aphraates
St. Ephraem
St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
St. Cyprian
The Shepherd of Hermas
St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Gregory Nazianzen
St. Jerome
Firmilian
St. Fulgentius
St. John Chrysostom
St. Irenaeus
St. Theophilus of Antioch
St. Clement of Alexandria

Confirmation:
NEARLY EVERONE SITED ABOVE PLUS ST. BASIL.

The Eucharist:
AGAIN, SAME AS ABOVE PLUS ST. HILARY, ST. JUSTIN MARTYR, ST. LEO THE GREAT, ST. JOHN OF DAMASCUS, ORIGEN, ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA.

PENANCNE:
NEARLY SAME AS ABOVE

HOLY ORDERS:
NEARLY SAME AS ABOVE PLUS ST. CLEMENT OF ROME, ST. ATHANASIUS,

(I apologize for exessively saying “same as above” but I’m too tired to write out every single name ) 🙂
 
And there are many on St. Mary as well, as I’ve already shown in my previous posts.

I’m not at all trying to say anything about Trent, or that all ECF must agree in order to have True Doctrine, I’m only showing how the ECF are in harmony with the Catholic Church of today, and not Protestants. Just like the Bible, you interpret the ECF the way you want, delude them to fit and please your own personal beliefs. I am NOT condeming Protestantism, I actually respect it (I used to be a Calvinist), and I am not saying the ECF were EXACTLY like the Catholic Church on all issues, I’m saying (and I think you truley know this too) that the ECF writtings are clearly “Catholic” AND “Orthodox” (Orthodox Church) in comparison to “Protestant.”

There are numerous Protestant Churches all over the world with preachers here and there preaching their doctrines. Yet NONE of them are ever mistaken for “Catholic” or “Orthodox.” They are clearly taken as Protestants.

When one reads Protestant doctrines for the very first time it’s easy to tell they’re “Protestant.” And when one reads the ECF for the very first time, it is strikingly clear that they sound, IN CONTEXT AS WELL, AS ALWAYS, Catholic/Orthodox.

To deny this is just plain illogical.

God bless you.
 
It is true that there are not so many early writtings on St. Mary, especialy “the Assumption” (though there are a few). And there are some on “the Immaculate Conception, Mary Ever-Virgin and Mary as the Mother of God.” As I’ve already shown. But again I admit they are few. Neverthertheless these doctrines are not my point. I’m more interested in the Sacraments, the Papacy, Grace and Salvation, etc. And ALL of these Doctrines are found among the ECF in harmony with the current Catholic Church, and (except the Papacy) the Orthodox Church.

I have a great respect for the Orthodox Church, even though they deny a Pope. Because they see as well that the ECF were in harmony with the Sacrements, Salvation, etc., rather than the Protestant Church (no disrespect to Protestants).

I am truley amazed at how modern Protestents can claim the early Christians believed in the many “Biblical” doctrines as they now believe. Wow that is truley something amazing to say (no pun intended).

God bless you.
 
It would make more sense to say that the ECF and Christians went way off the rails after the last Biblical Apostle when regarding the sacrements, grace/salvation, apostolic succession, papacy, etc., then to rather say they believed as modern Protestants.
 
If the early Christians believed everything that the RCC believes today, what would have been the need for the Reformation? Just so you know, I believe there was a drastic need for the Reformation.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
If the early Christians believed everything that the RCC believes today, what would have been the need for the Reformation?
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There was no need for the reformation as it came down and if you go back and read the history of it you’d agree.

Try this book: How the Reformation Happened by Hilaire Belloc
Just so you know, I believe there was a drastic need for the Reformation.
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Based on what actual research you have done?

Or…is this an opinion passed on to you by someone else? Your preacher? Some evangelist? A website?

Just because you believe it doesn’t make it so my friend. Anyone can be wrong. I was for over 34 years! :bible1:
Pax tecum,
 
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