Split: Another Tradition Debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter hoosierdaddy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A church that claims speaking in tongues is a sign that you are saved is not the problem. They are just wrong. However, a church that would say you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved would not be Christian. No confusion there, it’s as simple as that.

You said it; it’s enough to unite you to us Protestants. But you won’t…because you don’t consider us Christians. 👍
Here is the Catholic view on non-Catholic Christian’s

CCC
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church”
 
Here is the Catholic view on non-Catholic Christian’s

CCC
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church”
Good. Then we are considered Christians, united in Christ, and therefore welcome to partake of communion in the Catholic church. 👍
 
“This is not true. Look, You are the one who believes that everything has to be spelled out in the Bible, even when every early church father that lived and died for the faith disagrees with Sola Scriptura and plainly teaches the Eucharistic Real Presence.”

I am? I believe that something has to be supported by Scripture. If something doesn’t stand up to the test of Scripture it’s not acceptable. Take the Trinity for example. I believe it is explicitly spelled out in Scripture but even if it weren’t, that doesn’t mean I would reject it.

Never have I said something has to be explicitly spelled out in the Bible but it defnitely has to be 'biblical". It has to stand up to the test. With all due respect, please confer with me before you post what “I believe” when you aren’t sure. Thanks.
Hoosier – please help us out here. Use the “quote” feature when responding to a post so we can track your responses against what they are responding to.

thanks.
 
You are Christians, but you are not welcome to partake of Holy Communion because you do not accept it as the actual Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If a Church says that speaking in tongues is a sign you’re saved, it is not Christian? How can you call a fellow sola scriptura church not Christian?

God Bless,
michael
 
Good. Then we are considered Christians, united in Christ, and therefore welcome to partake of communion in the Catholic church. 👍
We believe that communion is the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. If we allow you to recieve it while knowing you do not believe it, we are insulting Christ. It is not about being Christian, it is about Catholic belief.

Think about it this way, you believe the Bible is the word of God. Would you give someone a Bible so they could burn it? It has less to do with belief and respecting the others belief than it has to do with respecting your own belief and showing respect to God.

A lone Raven
 
Good. Then we are considered Christians, united in Christ, and therefore welcome to partake of communion in the Catholic church. 👍
It’s truly most disturbing and sad when Christians cant simply admit when they are mistaken. IMHO It is nothing short of pride which produced your response. I dont pretend to be above it, but when I mispeak and then have clearly been shown to have been mistaken - like you have - I will admit it.
Your attempt to deflect and obscure the fact that you were wrong by introducing a new topic for debate only reduces your credibility further, detracts from everything else you have to say and appears rather juvenile.
 
It’s truly most disturbing and sad when Christians cant simply admit when they are mistaken. IMHO It is nothing short of pride which produced your response. I dont pretend to be above it, but when I mispeak and then have clearly been shown to have been mistaken - like you have - I will admit it.
Your attempt to deflect and obscure the fact that you were wrong by introducing a new topic for debate only reduces your credibility further, detracts from everything else you have to say and appears rather juvenile.
Maybe it was pride. But it was also a sense of humour. I suggest you buy one.

You don’t know me from Adam. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. I wasn’t introducing a new topic for debate Einstein. I was using my sense of humour. The topic was related though; if we are Christians as well, then according to our unity in Christ we are welcome to partake in communion at your church.

As for my credibility you are hardly the judge of that.

Oh yeah…I think it was your pride that lead you to respond the way you did.👍
 
Hoosier – please help us out here. Use the “quote” feature when responding to a post so we can track your responses against what they are responding to.

thanks.
Sorry, usually I do. When I don’t, it is for one reason or another. And it is not to be deceptive as the gentleman above would accuse me of.
 
You are Christians, but you are not welcome to partake of Holy Communion because you do not accept it as the actual Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It’s not your business to exclude someone who claims to be a Christian from partaking of communion. They are accountable to God. Maybe Protestants think you are worshipping a piece of bread and that is why some of them don’t welcome you to take communion with them. They feel you are insulting God and blaspheming Him. I’m not saying you are; I’m telling you what they may feel. But you don’t take the time to see where they are coming from, do you?

If a Church says that speaking in tongues is a sign you’re saved, it is not Christian? How can you call a fellow sola scriptura church not Christian?

Because the Bible (specifically Galatians) says if anyone preaches another gospel let him be accursed. To say that one needs to speak in tongues in order to be saved is heresy. Anyone who subscibes to that belief is not a Christian. Ergo, my conclusion.

God Bless,
michael
 
We believe that communion is the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. If we allow you to recieve it while knowing you do not believe it, we are insulting Christ. It is not about being Christian, it is about Catholic belief.

This has to be the first clear explanation I’ve been given. Thank you. I can understand that, even if I don’t agree with it. 👍

Think about it this way, you believe the Bible is the word of God. Would you give someone a Bible so they could burn it? It has less to do with belief and respecting the others belief than it has to do with respecting your own belief and showing respect to God.

No, I wouldn’t. Although I don’t agree on the communion issue I understand where you are coming from.

A lone Raven
 
The major problem with sola scriptura is that it does not work from a historical perspective.

For example, the New Testament (NT) books were not completed till the end of the first century and even then certain Christian communities did not accept as inspired all of the New Testament books that we have today.

The earliest New Testament writings are Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians, I believe, which were written around 20 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection. The Gospels were completed later (the years vary according to which scholar you read but I think it is safe to say that none of them were completed prior to 50 A.D.)

So, let’s say that I am a Christian believer going to Church in the year 60 A.D. Remember there is no New Testament as we have today and maybe three out of the four Gospels that we consider inspired today are even complete (I believe St. John’s Gospel was the last one to be written and it would not have been completed prior to 60 A.D.). Also, not all of the Churches would have all of the letters of St. Paul and some Churches rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Book of Revelation as inspired so they would not use those books in their Church services.

In addition, remember that there was no such thing as a printing press in 60 A.D. and all people had was parchment. To make copies of any writings was long and laborious and expensive. Most people could not afford to have copies of parchment laying around and even if they did there was no guarantee that they could even read it because the average joe in the 1st century was not necessarily literate either. So, you have this problem that even if a person could read they probably could not afford to have copies of parchment laying around the house. (It was not uncommon for a single copy of some book on parchment could cost at least a years’ wages or more.)

Since the above was the case historically, how did a Christian in 60 A.D. learn of Christ and determine what was true when it came to faith and morals since he really had no New Testament or Old Testament books to read on his own?

This is a real historical problem for our Protestant friends who believe that the Early Church practiced sola scriptura as they do today. From a practical perspective the Early Church could not have had anything like sola scriptura. It was just a practical and cultural impossibility.

However, what the Early Christians did have was the oral tradition of the Apostles handed down to the people through the Apostles and their successors and then as the NT canon developed over time, Sacred Scripture, (which consisted of the Old Testament and the developing New Testament) was used to pass the faith along to the community. This idea that people in the 1st Century somehow sat at home and read their NT and OT parchments themselves and then went to the house Churches to discuss their own private interpretations is just fiction and has no basis in fact.

If you want to read a really good book on the development of the New Testament Canon get the book “The Canon of the New Testament its Origin, Development and Significance” by Bruce Metzger. This book went a long way in helping me to see that Sola Scriptura is a later invention and was not something that the early church used or could have used as a final authority on matters of faith and morals. I should point out that Bruce Metzger is not Catholic.

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
 
Good. Then we are considered Christians, united in Christ, and therefore welcome to partake of communion in the Catholic church. 👍
Yes: Christians.
Yes: United in Christ, though imperfectly.
Yes: Welcome to partake of Communion in the Catholic Church, presuming you are validly baptized, when you have made your public profession of faith: “I believe and profess all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches,” and in a state of grace: i.e., if you have grave sin on your conscience, you will have made a Sacramental Confession . . .
 
hosierdaddy said:
When is a marriage valid before the eyes of God? When two people commit to each other for life and do it according to the laws of the land. That was easy. God bless.

So you’re saying that marriage is a civil contract only? The Church was in the business of solemnizing marriages long before the government got involved. The Church holds marriage to be divinely ordained by God, elevated to a Sacrament by Christ, and it is defined as a covenant between one man and one woman, freely given, for life, and open to life.

That’s why masturbation is wrong. Catholics vow to “keep themselves” only for their spouse. Masturbation squanders that.
 
Dear Hoosierdaddy,

Why did you refer to Philthy as “Einstein”?

Thanks,
Jacobaer
 
With all due respect, **please confer with me before you post what “I believe” **when you aren’t sure. Thanks.
But you won’t…because you don’t consider us Christians. 👍
Is it just me, or are there some inconsistencies evident here?
Catholics want us to find our doctrines from just the Scriptures so if you want us to do that, then you have to as well.
And I may be late to this thread, but am I reading this correctly? Catholics are to be bound by sola scriptura in arguing the invalidity of sola scriptura? Is this what I am reading here?

Peace all.
 
Good. Then we are considered Christians, united in Christ, and therefore welcome to partake of communion in the Catholic church. 👍
I’m guessing you skipped over the part that said “imperfect communion”.

Of course, whenever you accept the Real Presence of Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist, well, let’s talk more then.
 
So you’re saying that marriage is a civil contract only? The Church was in the business of solemnizing marriages long before the government got involved. The Church holds marriage to be divinely ordained by God, elevated to a Sacrament by Christ, and it is defined as a covenant between one man and one woman, freely given, for life, and open to life.

**No I’m not saying that at all. However, marriage IS a civil contract as it is something God intends for ALL people and not just Christians. I take offense that you imply that I don’t think marriage is divinely ordained, because I do. I do not believe it is a sacrament though; you’re talking to a Baptist.

I am also going by NT commands; those being that we must follow the laws of the land unless they directly contradict God’s law. This means we follow the laws of the land when it comes to marriage. **

That’s why masturbation is wrong. Catholics vow to “keep themselves” only for their spouse. Masturbation squanders that.

Not to be too blunt, but isn’t this the epitome of “keeping yourself”? You’re not going around committing adultery. Last I saw, adultery was a sin. I don’t see masturbation called a sin anywhere in Scripture, however if you can show me I am open to changing my mind. Also, does masturbation have anything to do with the topic of this thread?
 
Yes: Christians.
Yes: United in Christ, though imperfectly.
Yes: Welcome to partake of Communion in the Catholic Church, presuming you are validly baptized, when you have made your public profession of faith: “I believe and profess all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches,” and in a state of grace: i.e., if you have grave sin on your conscience, you will have made a Sacramental Confession . . .
Funny, you just admitted I’m a Christian yet you put unscriptural demands upon me before I am permitted to partake of communion. I don’t see your demands in Scripture. Please show me where Scripture says I have to say “I believe and profess all that the Catholic church believes and teaches” before I am permitted to partake of communion.
 
I’m guessing you skipped over the part that said “imperfect communion”.

Of course, whenever you accept the Real Presence of Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist, well, let’s talk more then.
I might be more willing to accept it when people stop being stuck up ogres. If that ever happens, we’ll talk more then.

Also, it’s funny that you would make up “imperfect communion”. The Bible knows nothing of that; what it does know is something that ALL Christians (including us Protestants) are entitled to partake of it. The ONLY thing they have to do is make sure they have no unconfessed sin in their life and if they do, they confess it to God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top