SPLIT: Answers from Protestants to "Questions For Protestants"

[mgrfin]

You mean to tell me that St. John did not take care of Mary after Pentecost? After the direct command from Jeus himself, his ‘death-bed’ wish.

I guess you’d like us to believe that Mary died, and she was buried. And evidence for that is where? We have a tomb of Mary’s burial? No.

The sinless Mother of God - she was not touched by Original Sin, and it was right that she should not die, and that she should remain incorruptible.

You misread Epiphanius. All he is saying is something we already know, Scripture is silent on the matter. Of course, we don’t accept the Scriptures as being the full deposit of faith - they are only a part

I’ll check with St. Iranaeus et.al., and get back to you.

peace

The earliest record is from the 7th Century. I wasn’t able to find the documents from St. Iraenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of St. John.

Documents from antiquity are alway problematical. We have not extant originals of the Old or New Testament. It doesn’t mean of itself that the Scriptures are fake, or not true.

That is why we have an infallible Church to guide us through all these mysteries.

peace

 

[kaycee]

You mean to tell me that St. John did not take care of Mary after Pentecost? After the direct command from Jeus himself, his ‘death-bed’ wish.

Where did I ever say that?

I guess you’d like us to believe that Mary died, and she was buried. And evidence for that is where? We have a tomb of Mary’s burial? No.

Your free to believe whatever you want. We don’t know where most of the Apostles are buried, must we assume they were all taken bodily into heaven? Not knowing where someone is buried means we dont know where they are buried.

The sinless Mother of God - she was not touched by Original Sin, and it was right that she should not die, and that she should remain incorruptible.

Thats about as many baseless “assumptions” as one can get in a single sentence.

You misread Epiphanius. All he is saying is something we already know, Scripture is silent on the matter. Of course, we don’t accept the Scriptures as being the full deposit of faith - they are only a part

Yes, it is clear that the 5th-6th century Church started importing legends from Gnostic writings, like Pseudo Melito and the Dormition and began calling it “Tradition”.

No one ever mentioned the “assumption” until 4 hundred years after the supposed event. The first to mention it were Non Christians Gnostics.

 

[mgrfin]

Where did I ever say that?

Your free to believe whatever you want. We don’t know where most of the Apostles are buried, must we assume they were all taken bodily into heaven? Not knowing where someone is buried means we dont know where they are buried.

Thats about as many baseless “assumptions” as one can get in a single sentence.

Yes, it is clear that the 5th-6th century Church started importing legends from Gnostic writings, like Pseudo Melito and the Dormition and began calling it “Tradition”.

No one ever mentioned the “assumption” until 4 hundred years after the supposed event. The first to mention it were Non Christians Gnostics.

I don’t believe whatever I want. I believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

As for the apostles, they were not sinless from conception. According to you, carrying it to the logical extreme, all religion is a myth. Importing legends…can you prove that the Assumption of Mary was an imported legend?

What your missing is that the Catholic Church is the depository of the faith, per the words of Jesus: “And on this Rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”
“And I will send to you the Paraclete, the Comforter”.
“As the Father has sent me, I also send youl And when he said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”.

Friend, if you don’t believe in the forgiveness of sins through the Sacrament of Penance, as is told in John 20, why should you believe in the doctrine of the Assumption.

You are not a believer as we. Tell us, what do you believe. I assume you are not here just to criticize. I’d be happy to hear about your beliefs. Maybe you have some ‘cool’ things you have to say in a positive way.

peace be with you

 

[kaycee]

I don’t believe whatever I want. I believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

As for the apostles, they were not sinless from conception. According to you, carrying it to the logical extreme, all religion is a myth. Importing legends…can you prove that the Assumption of Mary was an imported legend?

The Transitus Beatae Mariae / Pseudo Melito and the Dormition / Pseudo St. John were the first appearance of the assumption story and condemned by 2 popes. It was eventually accepted a couple of hundred years later.

Friend, if you don’t believe in the forgiveness of sins through the Sacrament of Penance, as is told in John 20, why should you believe in the doctrine of the Assumption.

Certainly belief in the Savior for the forgiveness of sins is what the Apostles taught. The assumptions was not taught for 500 later.

You are not a believer as we. Tell us, what do you believe. I assume you are not here just to criticize. I’d be happy to hear about your beliefs. Maybe you have some ‘cool’ things you have to say in a positive way.

former Catholic, radically saved by God and now contending for the Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints

 

[Teflon93]

.

former Catholic, radically saved by God and now contending for the Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints

Which faith is that? How do you know it was once and for all delivered to the saints? How do you know you personally are saved?

 

[mgrfin]

kaycee:
The assumption story? You mean the Doctrine of the Assumption infallibly taught by Christ’s Church?

"What the Apostles taught (about penance)? Did that doctrine die with the 12. Or did the Church hand it down through its teaching magisterium.

Heresy comes up often, and leads to an explanation of the Faith because of ‘contenders’. Like the story that Arius taught in the 4th Century. It was up to the Council of Nicea to come up with a definition of Trinitarian theology. When a truth ‘arrives’ on the scene is totally irrevelant.

The Church had been in existence for hundreds of years when someone questioned the divinity of Jesus Christ, and that there were three persons in one God.

How do you know that the Assumption story was told ‘500 later’, cause there was no ‘documents’ to make you happy.
I have no problem with St. John knowing what happened to the Virgin Mary.

I hardly believe that your problem with the Church is related to the doctrine of the Assumption. BTW, what is your problem with the Church? You found something better, or you founded your own? Is it a matter of faith, or morals, or both?

If you won’t accept the infallibility of the Church, you can believe what you want, form your own religion, pick and chose what beliefs fit your particular frame of mind.

pax

 

[kaycee]

Which faith is that? How do you know it was once and for all delivered to the saints? How do you know you personally are saved?

The Faith that saves.

Jude was written in the 1st century.

Because I have trusted Jesus death on the cross as my payment for sin. I Love The Lord, The Scripture, the brethren, holiness, and seek to do His will and before I did Not and was not interested.

 

[Teflon93]

The Faith that saves.

Jude was written in the 1st century.

Because I have trusted Jesus death on the cross as my payment for sin. I Love The Lord, The Scripture, the brethren, holiness, and seek to do His will and before I did Not and was not interested.

Kaycee—let me be very clear because my questions were not facetious and because I by no means wish to belittle your faith in any way, shape, or form:

How do you KNOW you are saved? I certainly understand trusting in Christ, as we all should, but you seem to know with certainty. How do you know?

How is your faith defined? I presume from your answer that your faith is not dependent upon Jude although you have referenced it. Many denominations claim Scriptural basis, although I’m certain you would argue that many of these do not have equal validity. So how is YOUR faith defined?

 

[kaycee]

Well, I think we also need to make very clear that while we may argue this doctrine or that historical event, often passionately, we will not jump on someone’s pious faith. I have several friends who are part of Kenneth Copeland’s Word of Faith movement. While I disagree almost completely with its theology and doctrine, I respect my friends’ deep devotion to Christ and charitable works.

So while I disagree with Kaycee on lots of things, I doubt not for an instant that he is a devout Christian and our brother.

It is true that specificity invites specific discussion, which folks sometimes aren’t really comfortable having. That’s fine; I just wondered where he was coming from as he seems to have a great deal of certainty regarding salvation and the teachings of his faith without having the benefit of Tradition and Magisterium we Catholics draw upon.

In response, I found it much quicker to google the question and provide quick link with a response that lines up with my beliefs.
here is the link.

seekgod.org/bible/howtoknowyoursaved.html

 

[Teflon93]

In response, I found it much quicker to google the question and provide quick link with a response that lines up with my beliefs.
here is the link.

seekgod.org/bible/howtoknowyoursaved.html

Fair enough—thanks for your response and the link.

 

[geauxtigers]

1. Question: Where in the Bible does it say:
   A) Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith for Christians?
   B) We are saved, or justified, by faith alone?
   C) Baptism is a symbolic gesture that the already saved believer makes to show his commitment to God?
   D) That every individual, Christian or not, has the right to interpret every single passage of Scripture on their own in order to determine, by their own authority, what is true doctrine and what is false doctrine?
   E) That you are to have altar calls?
   F) That you are to meet at your church every Wednesday night?
   G) That it is okay to disagree on the “non-essential” doctrines as long as you agree on the “essential” doctrines?
   H) That there is even such a thing as a non-essential doctrine…a non-essential part of the Word of God?

Why is that important to you? An altar call is just an invitation to respond to the Holy Spirit, and does it matter if my church meets on Wednesday nights? For practical reasons, my church meets on Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, and Wednesday nights. Sunday AM we have our regular worship service, with children’s church, sermon, etc. Sunday night, we have teaching. Wednesday nights, we have a prayer meeting.

 

[Teflon93]

Why is that important to you? An altar call is just an invitation to respond to the Holy Spirit, and does it matter if my church meets on Wednesday nights? For practical reasons, my church meets on Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, and Wednesday nights. Sunday AM we have our regular worship service, with children’s church, sermon, etc. Sunday night, we have teaching. Wednesday nights, we have a prayer meeting.

Altar calls and Wednesday night church, if they are not in the Bible, are traditions of men, are they not?

 

[mgrfin]

Why is that important to you? An altar call is just an invitation to respond to the Holy Spirit, and does it matter if my church meets on Wednesday nights? For practical reasons, my church meets on Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, and Wednesday nights. Sunday AM we have our regular worship service, with children’s church, sermon, etc. Sunday night, we have teaching. Wednesday nights, we have a prayer meeting.

I like your list. I’m a bit naive. What is ‘an altar call’?

peace

 

[geauxtigers]

Altar calls and Wednesday night church, if they are not in the Bible, are traditions of men, are they not?

You know what, you’re right. Cars are also not mentioned in the Bible. As a Protestant, I should probably get rid of mine. I’ll go out and do that right away. Sorry.

And to mgrfin, at the end of a (typically) Baptist service, the preacher will have the pianist play a hymn of invitation (Just As I Am, or something like that) and invite people to come to the front for prayer, to accept Christ or join the church or pray for other needs.

 

[Teflon93]

You know what, you’re right. Cars are also not mentioned in the Bible. As a Protestant, I should probably get rid of mine. I’ll go out and do that right away. Sorry.

And to mgrfin, at the end of a (typically) Baptist service, the preacher will have the pianist play a hymn of invitation (Just As I Am, or something like that) and invite people to come to the front for prayer, to accept Christ or join the church or pray for other needs.

You have cars within the sanctuary of your church?

That must be some altar call!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Why is that important to you? An altar call is just an invitation to respond to the Holy Spirit, and does it matter if my church meets on Wednesday nights? For practical reasons, my church meets on Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, and Wednesday nights. Sunday AM we have our regular worship service, with children’s church, sermon, etc. Sunday night, we have teaching. Wednesday nights, we have a prayer meeting.

I think there’s another thread for answers.

 

[mgrfin]

The Church alsways accepted most of the Books except Heb, James, II, III John and Rev. This was never huge confusion over this as you seem to be implying.

I understood that the Synod of Laodicea named the canon of the New Testament in 364 AD, with the exception of Revelations.

peace

 

[Michael_Francis]

I think there’s another thread for answers.

Correct!

That thread is at the other end of this link.
SPLIT: Answers from Protestants to “Questions For Protestants”
MF

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Why is that important to you? An altar call is just an invitation to respond to the Holy Spirit, and does it matter if my church meets on Wednesday nights? For practical reasons, my church meets on Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, and Wednesday nights. Sunday AM we have our regular worship service, with children’s church, sermon, etc. Sunday night, we have teaching. Wednesday nights, we have a prayer meeting.

So you’re saying those are practices in your church that have no basis in Scripture?

 

[mozart-250]

Oh goodie questions:

1. Question: If everything that we need to know as Christians is in the Bible, then where in the Bible does it give us the list of books that are supposed to be in the Bible? How do we know all of those books are supposed to be in the Bible if there is no list in the Bible?

Do Christians need to know what books are in the Bible? Most Christians I know haven’t given the issue an ounce of thought. They just accepted the Bible that was handed to them by whatever church they started attending.

1. Question: If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyone - even God! - in order to be saved, right?

Not on day 0. When I first came to Christ, He did not reject me because I did not love him.

Since that time of course, He has changed my life so that there is a love for Christ that was not there before.

1. Question: If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?

See above answer and change love to works. When I first came to Christ, He did not reject me because I had no works.

1. Question: If salvation by faith alone is the most central and most important Christian doctrine, then why does the phrase “faith alone” appear only once in all of Scripture…and that is to say that we are not justified by “faith alone” (James 2:24)?

Who says that salvation by faith alone is the most central and most important Christian doctrine.

Christians can and do disagree over the precise mechanics of our salvation. For example google Lordship Salvation.

1. Question: If God alone can forgive sins, and we are to confess our sins only to God, and not to men, then why does Matthew say that God gave the authority on earth to forgive sins to “men”…plural (Matt 9:6-8); and why does James tell us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16)? And why does Jesus give His disciples the power to forgive or retain sins (John 20:23)?

I don’t believe that it is wrong to confess our sins to men in addition to confessing our sins to God.

1. Question: Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation?

If you change the words to “living faith”, yes.

1. Question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground…in other words, the upholder and foundation of the truth…is it the Bible?

No, the church is. This does not mean one denomination is or does it mean that one denomination somehow is guaranteed to be without error when teaching on faith and morals.

1. Question: Is God’s revelation to men ongoing, or did it end with the death of the last Apostle?

Does God still speak to folks today? Of course he does.

1. Question: Jesus tells us in John 6:27 to “labor for the food that leads to eternal life” which He will give us. In John 6:55, Jesus tells us that His Flesh is real food and in verse 54 He says that whoever eats this flesh (this food) has eternal life. What does Jesus mean when He tells us to “labor” for the food that will lead to eternal life and that by eating this food (His flesh) we will have eternal life?

Well I did not take communion on day 0 of my Christian life, so either I did not receive eternal life on day 0 of my Christian life (and do not have it now, being woefully deceived), or somehow on that day in some sence I did eat his flesh and drink his blood.

1. Question: Christ redeemed all men with His death on the cross. In other words, He paid the price for all men’s sins. Yet, not all men are saved. What is the difference between those who are merely redeemed and the subset of those who are redeemed and saved? Is it something Jesus did, or is it something each saved individual did?

Who says all men are redeemed. I know plenty of folks who are not redeemed (yet).

1. Question: Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God?

Again, on day 0 of my Christian life, Christ did not reject me and tell me to come back later after I forgave everyone whom I had a grudge against.