SPLIT: Baha'i: Heaven on earth

  • Thread starter Thread starter DavidMark
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

DavidMark

Guest
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13)

Notice it says “IS IN heaven,” so whoever was in His presence on earth, was in heaven.
And we know He came from heaven, but outwardly from Mary.
So when he returns, it should be in the same manner, and a greater degree of heaven will ultimately appear on earth. Practicing His presence is being in heaven.

I’m sure you personally feel heavenly in the Eucharist, but please don’t limit God by implying He cannot reveal more of His will “on earth, as it is in heaven.”
We’re not done here learning about heaven on earth. God is to rule on earth.
The kings have not yet brought their glory into the New Jerusalem, and the nations have not beaten their swords into plowshares…

“Is there and Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God! All are His servants and all abide by His bidding.” ~The Báb

[The Báb lived 1819-1850, and was executed under circumstances Catholics would be startled to recognize. His Shrine is half-way up Mount Carmel in Israel. Thought you should know.]
 
\[The Báb lived 1819-1850, and was executed under circumstances Catholics would be startled to recognize. His Shrine is half-way up Mount Carmel in Israel. Thought you should know.]\

**But the Shrine of the Transfiguration is on the TOP of Mt. Carmel, where our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ revealed His glory as God to the chosen disciples as far as they could bear it.

The Bab and Bahaullah died and their bodies ROT in the ground.

Jesus rose from the dead in His glorified human body and therewith ascended into Heaven, whence He shall come with glory to judge the living and the dead, including you, me, Bab, and Bahaullah.

Jesus is God Incarnate. The other two are not, but mere mortals.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
\[The Báb lived 1819-1850, and was executed under circumstances Catholics would be startled to recognize. His Shrine is half-way up Mount Carmel in Israel. Thought you should know.]\

But the Shrine of the Transfiguration is on the TOP of Mt. Carmel, where our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ revealed His glory as God to the chosen disciples as far as they could bear it.
The Bab and Bahaullah died and their bodies ROT in the ground.
Jesus rose from the dead in His glorified human body and therewith ascended into Heaven, whence He shall come with glory to judge the living and the dead, including you, me, Bab, and Bahaullah. Jesus is God Incarnate. The other two are not, but mere mortals.
Click to expand...
Friend, i take it you’re not interested in hearing about a new Revelation, that others believe in. I shouldn’t proffer the cup until i find a thirsty one, and this whole blog thing begins and ends with words, when the Lord is waiting for righteous acts. But i will say this:
We believe that when you talk about the Glory of God coming to judge, you cannot ignore Bahá’u’lláh, whose Name means The Glory of God. We see Him as the Return of the Spirit of Christ in the Glory of the “Everlasting Father” promised by Isaiah and others.
It is not Christ’s Body that will save you, but His transcendent Spirit.

The early Church was broken-hearted and inert for three days, until Mary Magdalene alerted the others, including Peter, that He was Risen!
Then they began to teach the rest of mankind, and i’m glad they did.
I never saw the body of Jesus, but His Spirit can find you anywhere.

How many the outwardly pious who have turned away,
and how many the wayward who have drawn nigh, exclaiming:
“All praise be to Thee, O Thou the Desire of the worlds!”
In truth, it is in the hand of God to give what He willeth
to whomsoever He willeth, and to withhold what He pleaseth
from whomsoever He may wish.
He knoweth the inner secrets of the hearts
and the meaning hidden in a mocker’s wink.
How many an embodiment of heedlessness
who came unto Us with purity of heart
have We established upon the seat of Our acceptance;
and how many an exponent of wisdom
have We in all justice consigned to the fire.
We are, in truth, the One to judge.
He it is Who is the manifestation of “God doeth whatsoever He pleaseth”,
and abideth upon the throne of “He ordaineth whatsoever He chooseth”.
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 75)

'Re-read 1 John 4:2 If you don’t test the spirits, you are not using the Lord Christ’s criteria.
‘You SHALL know them by their fruits’ (Matthew 7:16) What are the fruits of His teaching?
Don’t be like a Jew, who thinks he knows all about heaven and has long been taught not to weigh fairly.
 
**At one time We address the people of the Torah and summon them unto Him Who is the Revealer of verses, Who hath come from Him Who layeth low the necks of men… At another, We address the people of the Evangel and say:
‘The All-Glorious is come in this Name whereby the Breeze of God hath wafted over all regions.’… At still another, We address the people of the Qur’án saying:
‘Fear the All-Merciful, and cavil not at Him through Whom all religions were founded.’… Know thou, moreover, that We have addressed to the Magians Our Tablets, and adorned them with Our Law… We have revealed in them the essence of all the hints and allusions contained in their Books. The Lord, verily, is the Almighty, the All-Knowing. ** (Bahá’u’lláh, Promised Day is Come, p. 78, & The Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 87)

All the teaching of the Prophets is one; one faith; one Divine light shining throughout the world. Now, under the banner of the oneness of humanity all people of all creeds should turn away from prejudice and become friends and believers in all the Prophets. As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. He has uplifted the standard of the oneness of faith and the honour of humanity in the centre of the world. Today we must gather round it, and try with heart and soul to bring about the union of mankind. (Abdul-Baha in London 42)
 
bpbasilphx said:
But the Shrine of the Transfiguration is on the TOP of Mt. Carmel, where our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ revealed His glory as God to the chosen disciples as far as they could bear it.

The Bab and Bahaullah died and their bodies ROT in the ground.

Jesus rose from the dead in His glorified human body and therewith ascended into Heaven, whence He shall come with glory to judge the living and the dead, including you, me, Bab, and Bahaullah.

Jesus is God Incarnate. The other two are not, but mere mortals.
Click to expand...
Indeed! 👍
 
I accept with information:
How many the outwardly pious who have turned away,
and how many the wayward who have drawn nigh, exclaiming:
“All praise be to Thee, O Thou the Desire of the worlds!”
In truth, it is in the hand of God to give what He willeth
to whomsoever He willeth, and to withhold what He pleaseth
from whomsoever He may wish.
He knoweth the inner secrets of the hearts
and the meaning hidden in a mocker’s wink.
How many an embodiment of heedlessness
who came unto Us with purity of heart
have We established upon the seat of Our acceptance;
and how many an exponent of wisdom
have We in all justice consigned to the fire.
We are, in truth, the One to judge.
He it is Who is the manifestation of “God doeth whatsoever He pleaseth”,
and abideth upon the throne of “He ordaineth whatsoever He chooseth”.
 
DavidMark said:
**At one time We address the people of the Torah and summon them unto Him Who is the Revealer of verses, Who hath come from Him Who layeth low the necks of men… At another, We address the people of the Evangel and say:
‘The All-Glorious is come in this Name whereby the Breeze of God hath wafted over all regions.’… At still another, We address the people of the Qur’án saying:
‘Fear the All-Merciful, and cavil not at Him through Whom all religions were founded.’… Know thou, moreover, that We have addressed to the Magians Our Tablets, and adorned them with Our Law… We have revealed in them the essence of all the hints and allusions contained in their Books. The Lord, verily, is the Almighty, the All-Knowing. ** (Bahá’u’lláh, Promised Day is Come, p. 78, & The Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 87)

All the teaching of the Prophets is one; one faith; one Divine light shining throughout the world. Now, under the banner of the oneness of humanity all people of all creeds should turn away from prejudice and become friends and believers in all the Prophets. As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. He has uplifted the standard of the oneness of faith and the honour of humanity in the centre of the world. Today we must gather round it, and try with heart and soul to bring about the union of mankind. (Abdul-Baha in London 42)
Click to expand...
I am not one to quibble with Abdu’l-Baha, for whom I retain great affection. He was certainly a better man than I am. However, “should believe” does not get us there. There are real and powerful reasons that Christian minority communities have existed in Islamic lands since the dawn of Islam. I do give Islam credit for being more tolerant than a number of Christian princes have been. Nonetheless, the message of Christ cannot be compared with the message of Muhammad.

And, honestly, I have read the Qur’an in Arabic and I find some of the last surahs hauntingly beautiful. But beautiful words, by themselves, do not save souls.
 
Mickey said:
Indeed! 👍
Click to expand...
On the very top of Carmel is the Obelisk, in a garden, marking the spot where Bahá’u’lláh chanted the Tablet of Carmel …so loudly the monks in Maris Stella came out to hear.
bahai-library.org/writings/bahaullah/tb/1.html

and where a Bahá’í Temple, the “Dawning Place of the Mention of God” will be built.
I love to think of Carmel as the Highest moutain on earth! 🙂

Isaiah 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

These passages stand in need of no commentary. They are shining and manifest as the sun, and glowing and luminous as light itself. **Every fair-minded person **is led, by the fragrance of these words, unto the garden of understanding, and attaineth unto that from which most men are veiled and debarred. Say: Fear God, O people, and follow not the doubts of such as shout aloud, who have broken the Covenant of God and His Testament, and denied His mercy that hath preceded all that are in the heavens and all that are on earth. (Baha’u’llah, ESWf, p. 146)
 
Usbek_de_Perse said:
I am not one to quibble with Abdu’l-Baha, for whom I retain great affection. He was certainly a better man than I am. However, “should believe” does not get us there. There are real and powerful reasons that Christian minority communities have existed in Islamic lands since the dawn of Islam. I do give Islam credit for being more tolerant than a number of Christian princes have been. Nonetheless, the message of Christ cannot be compared with the message of Muhammad.

And, honestly, I have read the Qur’an in Arabic and I find some of the last surahs hauntingly beautiful. But beautiful words, by themselves, do not save souls.
Click to expand...
Imagine what the world would be like if Prophet Muhammad did NOT come. Much worse than it is now. And the Message of Bahá’u’lláh cannot be compared to any of them. Shouldn’t we seek the salvation of the whole Earth, not just our own souls?

The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, God’s perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never rival. ( Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 286)

Either He is a liar, a lunatic, or the LORD.
…so why equivocate?
Do you ‘have respect for’ a liar or a lunatic?

This heavenly Faith cannot be compared to the transitory things of the world of existence, nor can it be identified with or likened to physical and earthly forces. Its tabernacle has been raised through dire oppression, its advancement and promulgation depend upon spiritual and mysterious agencies, and factors that are awesome, alarming and totally unexpected. The Tongue of the Ancient of Days, the Comforter of the people of the world says: ***Naught hath been ordained by the finger of His decree for His loved ones except that which is profitable unto them. We beseech Him to graciously enable them to show forth patience and fortitude that haply trials and ordeals might not deflect them from the path of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. *** (Shoghi Effendi, Fire and Light, p. 33)
 
DavidMark said:
All the teaching of the Prophets is one; one faith
Click to expand...
This is not true, you have shown how your prophet deviates from the Teachings of Christianity in regards to the Trinity which we have from God though Jesus (who is God).
 
Is that all you can say Mickey, is Amen? Are you and ByzCath tired of me yet?
Do I entertain you? I’m posting for people who are curious.

The 3,960 “days” Prophecy
‘Unto thy seed have I given this land.’ [Genesis 15:4-7, 18]
Abraham asked God: ‘How shall I know that I shall inherit it?’
God answered him, this time with a symbol:
‘Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.’ [Genesis 15:9.]
What a strange answer to Abraham’s question as to how and when he, Abraham, would inherit Canaan!
F. Hudgings, in his Zionism in Prophecy, offers the following interesting explanation of this prophecy of the animals and the birds. He suggests that we look at the inward truth behind this outward symbol. The birds are taken to be one year old as the term ‘young’ pigeon is used. Thus we have three, three, three, one, one – or a total of eleven. The meaning is that Abraham will inherit Canaan and the seed inherit the earth when this prophecy came to pass after eleven years: eleven symbolical years of “each day for a year”. Eleven multiplied by 360 equals 3960 years. After 3960 years the prophecy would be fulfilled.
The exact time when this prophecy was revealed to Abraham is not known. However, we do know that it must have been immediately before the birth of Isaac. Authorities differ on the year of Isaac’s birth. However, one of the later dates given is 2007 B.C.; 2007 years from 3960 years, brings us to the year A.D. 1953! (From Thief in the Night, by Bill Sears)

In 1953 the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh launched a great spiritual world crusade, which was destined to culminate in the raising up of a universal House of Justice so that as prophesied by Isaiah, the spiritual ‘Law of God’ would go forth from Zion.
Bahá’u’lláh began his exile one hundred years before, in 1853. He went to the valley of the Tigris and Euphrates, and from there, like Abraham before him, was banished to the ancient land of Canaan. Even more significant are the prophetic words in the Bahá’í teachings concerning this date of 1953, words which say that this date ‘Marks the inception of the Kingdom of God on earth.’ ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, quoted in God Passes By, , p. 351.]
 
It’s OK Mickey. No problem. 🙂 Glory Hallelujah! Can i hear an Amen on that?

Are any of these topics worthy of discussion?

The full emancipation of the Faith itself from the fetters of religious orthodoxy, the essential prerequisite of its universal recognition and of the emergence of its World Order, is still unachieved.

The banner of Ya Bahá’ul-Abhá which, as foretold by Him, must float from the pinnacles of the foremost seat of learning in the Islamic world is still unhoisted.

The Most Great House (in Baghdad), ordained as a center of pilgrimage by Bahá’u’lláh in His Kitáb-i-Aqdas, is as yet unliberated.

The preliminary measures for the institution of Bahá’í courts, invested with the legal right to apply and execute those laws and ordinances, still remain to be undertaken.

The restitution of the first Mashriqu’l-Adhkar of the Bahá’í world (in Ishqabad, Turkmenistan) and the recreation of the community that so devotedly reared it, have yet to be accomplished.

The sovereign who, as foreshadowed in Bahá’u’lláh’s Most Holy Book, must adorn the throne of His native land, and cast the shadow of royal protection over His long-persecuted followers, is as yet undiscovered.

The contest that must ensue as a result of the concerted onslaughts which, as prophesied by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, are to be delivered by the leaders of religions as yet indifferent to the advance of the Faith, is as yet unfought.

The Golden Age of the Faith itself that must witness the unification of all the peoples and nations of the world,
the establishment of the Most Great Peace, the inauguration of the Kingdom of the Father upon earth, the coming of age of the entire human race and the birth of a world civilization, inspired and directed by the creative energies released by Bahá’u’lláh’s World Order, shining in its meridian splendor, is still unborn and its glories unsuspected. (Shoghi Effendi, 1944 CE, God Passes By, p. 411)
 
People of different Faiths base their belief on certain Books. If I were to ask a Christian, for instance, what he offers as support for his belief, he will hold up the Gospel.
In this particuar thread, it is appropriate to look at passages from our Book, which give ground to our belief in the new Revelation.

And the knowledge of the King of everlasting days can in no wise be attained save by recognizing Him Who is the Bearer of the Most Great Name. He is, in truth, the Speaker on Sinai Who is now seated upon the throne of Revelation…Attainment unto the Divine Presence can be realized solely by attaining His presence…True belief in God and recognition of Him cannot be complete save by acceptance of that which He hath revealed and by observance of whatsoever hath been decreed by Him and set down in the Book by the Pen of Glory. ~Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Tajalliyat, p. 50

Bahá’u’lláh is Slava Boga! (“Glory of God” Russian)
 
***Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. ***(Rev. 3:12)

The Greatest Name is the Name of Bahá’u’lláh. (The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Notes, p. 180)
 
DavidMark said:
It’s OK Mickey. No problem. 🙂 Glory Hallelujah! Can i hear an Amen on that?

Are any of these topics worthy of discussion?

The full emancipation of the Faith itself from the fetters of religious orthodoxy, the essential prerequisite of its universal recognition and of the emergence of its World Order, is still unachieved.

The banner of Ya Bahá’ul-Abhá which, as foretold by Him, must float from the pinnacles of the foremost seat of learning in the Islamic world is still unhoisted.

The Most Great House (in Baghdad), ordained as a center of pilgrimage by Bahá’u’lláh in His Kitáb-i-Aqdas, is as yet unliberated.

The preliminary measures for the institution of Bahá’í courts, invested with the legal right to apply and execute those laws and ordinances, still remain to be undertaken.

The restitution of the first Mashriqu’l-Adhkar of the Bahá’í world (in Ishqabad, Turkmenistan) and the recreation of the community that so devotedly reared it, have yet to be accomplished.

The sovereign who, as foreshadowed in Bahá’u’lláh’s Most Holy Book, must adorn the throne of His native land, and cast the shadow of royal protection over His long-persecuted followers, is as yet undiscovered.

The contest that must ensue as a result of the concerted onslaughts which, as prophesied by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, are to be delivered by the leaders of religions as yet indifferent to the advance of the Faith, is as yet unfought.

The Golden Age of the Faith itself that must witness the unification of all the peoples and nations of the world,
the establishment of the Most Great Peace, the inauguration of the Kingdom of the Father upon earth, the coming of age of the entire human race and the birth of a world civilization, inspired and directed by the creative energies released by Bahá’u’lláh’s World Order, shining in its meridian splendor, is still unborn and its glories unsuspected. (Shoghi Effendi, 1944 CE, God Passes By, p. 411)
Click to expand...
DavidMark, do you actually think that citing this passage laced with references that your readers will not understand from *God Passes By * is going to make your argument more intelligible?

Do you remember this quote from the Big Lebowski? "So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You’re like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know… " Consider whom you are addressing.

By the way, were you at Oklahoma City?
 
Usbek_de_Perse said:
DavidMark, do you actually think that citing this passage laced with references that your readers will not understand from *God Passes By * is going to make your argument more intelligible?

Do you remember this quote from the Big Lebowski? "So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You’re like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know… " Consider whom you are addressing.

By the way, were you at Oklahoma City?
Click to expand...
 
DavidMark said:
People of different Faiths base their belief on certain Books. If I were to ask a Christian, for instance, what he offers as support for his belief, he will hold up the Gospel.
In this particuar thread, it is appropriate to look at passages from our Book, which give ground to our belief in the new Revelation.

And the knowledge of the King of everlasting days can in no wise be attained save by recognizing Him Who is the Bearer of the Most Great Name. He is, in truth, the Speaker on Sinai Who is now seated upon the throne of Revelation…Attainment unto the Divine Presence can be realized solely by attaining His presence…True belief in God and recognition of Him cannot be complete save by acceptance of that which He hath revealed and by observance of whatsoever hath been decreed by Him and set down in the Book by the Pen of Glory. ~Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Tajalliyat, p. 50

Bahá’u’lláh is Slava Boga! (“Glory of God” Russian)
Click to expand...
Hello, DavidMark, I agree that the ordinary revelation which does not form part of any sacred book ( bible or Quran) is still continued. It will continue till the day of Judgement. That revelation is only allowed to the saints (Friends) of Allah. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian also believed the same and he said he recieved the revelation from God for about 35 years. He got his revelations published in his life time.

He says that God spoke to him through revelation and visions for many years. God told him the things of the unseen and those things were like miracles and were proved true.

The words of revelations he recieved were in Urdu, Persian, Arabic and English. All the words he heard (received) from God, he informed his friends immediately and got them written down. All those words are printed/ published in a book called “Tadhkirah” and available at the Ahmadia website. (may be a translation in English too).

It appears that bahaullah also received some revelations. But the matter becomes ambigous when the Baha’is say that he was God. So how could a God be sending messages to himself??

I do not know what this subject of revelation has to do with the Topic “Baha’i Heaven on earth.”

It is well known that the Jews and the christians and the Hindus all believe that there will be no more revelation. That all revelation has ended. But that is not true.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top