SPLIT: Baptism should be only for adults

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JustaServant said:
Genesis 17
1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2And I will **make my covenant **between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee;** Every man child among you shall be circumcised. **

11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12And** he that is eight days old **shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money,** every male among the men of Abraham’s house**; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

27And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Genesis 21:4
4And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Colossians 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Acts 16:15 (King James Version)

15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Corinthians 1:16 **
And I baptized also the household **of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

**Acts 2: **

38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made to you** and to your children** and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
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Better yet, answer this post.
 
JustaServant said:
Off topic, but I’ll answer.
From your own Reformed Confession:

It begs the question, what are “unelect” infants? And where do they Go? I spent much time among Calvinists. and this question often came up. It was squirted, spinned, and otherwise. I witnessed more than a few Calvinists tell a woman who had three miscarriages, that her unborn children perhaps were ‘unelect’.
I can still feel the anger welling up in me.
So lets get back on topic.
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Could you please skip to the part where it says that children below the age of accountability are automatically damned? Could you please also show where it says that children are no longer damned once they reach the age of accountability?

For that matter, can you show us where it says anything about the age of accountability in the first place?
 
kcmekim said:
Could you please skip to the part where it says that children below the age of accountability are automatically damned? Could you please also show where it says that children are no longer damned once they reach the age of accountability?

For that matter, can you show us where it says anything about the age of accountability in the first place?
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I think JustaServant is drawing two separate ideas that we’ve heard from two separate strains of thought, perhaps neither of which you belong to.

So do you adhere to a Reformed theology that does not embrace predestination and does not take there to be an age of accountability?

I’ve had discussions with folks in the Prebsyterian Church of America who argue from a predestination approach. I gather this is not universally taught within the PCA.

When I was involved in the International Church of Christ, they taught age of accountability. That may have been a peculiarity of that individual church (Church of Springfield), but I’ve heard similar arguments from non-denominational friends.

Maybe it would help move this discussion forward if we talked about what we understood of baptism in an affirmative light, rather than what we understand Baptism to not be.
 
losh14 said:
Maybe it would help move this discussion forward if we talked about what we understood of baptism in an affirmative light, rather than what we understand Baptism to not be.
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That is what I have been trying to do.
Baptism is God’s Grace to us. It leaves an invisible mark on the Baptized that can never be removed. It is God’s ‘brand’, in which He says ‘that one’s mine’.
 
Is Baptism a symbolic witness or God’s seal upon the believer? Is it my commitment or God’s committment?
In the Old Testament, circumcision was the mark on one’s body that gave testimony to the Covenant God has made. The sign IN the body represents a change in the heart.
Baptism is the ‘brand’ or the ‘seal’. Salvation is conveyed to us by the operation of the Spirit through Baptism. It is God’s declaration, not ours. A helpless infant is the recipiant of God’s Grace.
A Grace that awaits our response.
 
kcmekim said:
And I understand that you, as a Catholic, believe that. But we believe the BIblical teaching on baptism, that it is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.
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I realized that this poster is no longer with us, but for the benefit of any lurkers, I submit that Catholics do, indeed, believe the Biblical teaching on baptism, that it is how we are born again. Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again “of water and the spirit.” We are baptized in water and given the gift of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River the Holy Spirit descended upon Him - why would God not do the same for his adopted children?
 
Baptism is our initiation into the new covenant and was commanded by Jesus. Jewish parents still circumcise their sons according to the custom on the 8th day after birth because God told them that was what they should do. It is not the baby boy’s personal choice. Yet he is bound by that covenant as he grows. When we baptise our infants, we promise to raise them in the faith teaching them the Gospel. The sacrament bestows on them the grace of God to assist them in their journey of faith. It is through baptism that we are reborn “of water and the spirit” as Jesus said. Why would we wish to deny them that grace?
 
sckcd said:
I know it’s off topic, but why is he no longer on here?
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Only Michael Francis truly knows, but judging from his last post on a sub-forum, it ain’t hard to figure out. He made a pretty inarpropriate comment.
 
Debra_C said:
Baptism is our initiation into the new covenant and was commanded by Jesus. Jewish parents still circumcise their sons according to the custom on the 8th day after birth because God told them that was what they should do. It is not the baby boy’s personal choice. Yet he is bound by that covenant as he grows. When we baptise our infants, we promise to raise them in the faith teaching them the Gospel. The sacrament bestows on them the grace of God to assist them in their journey of faith. It is through baptism that we are reborn “of water and the spirit” as Jesus said. Why would we wish to deny them that grace?
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A proper understanding of Baptism is what draws many converts and reverts to the Church. It is the greatest of evangelistic tools.
 
Think of Baptism as John the Baptist taught it.

Matt 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, … ; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.

Did/Do anyone ever get their Water Baptism from Christ ? Does the Church even teach that another Christian perform our water Baptisms ?

Yet, we still obtain our H.S. Baptism from Christ alone.

After immersion in H20 … the H.S. came upon Christ. Same for us. In some cases it is immediately upon our water Baptisms, in other cases there may be a slight time separation. There are even occasions when the H.S. Baptism preceeded the H20 Baptism … Paul, Cornelius & family, etc.
 
When, in Matthew 19, Jesus insists that the “little children” be allowed to come to Him and that He be allowed to place His hands on them, that is not just a quaint story showing how Christ was a “child magnet.” It is a picture of a larger thing.

The *point * of the story, in Matthew 19, is that these kids are not just offspring, but “paidion” – little kids, way, way before the age of accountability.

Those who limit the availability of Baptism to non-psychotic people who have entered the age of accountability misunderstand Original Sin and God’s responsive grace.

In the Original Sin story, Eve’s response to the command respecting the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a picture of how each of us, in the absence of grace, would handle each and every moral decision.

From conception, each of us is a “sin machine,” whose innate potential for good, without grace, is zero.

Under the internal barrage of demands for sin, as six trillion cells scream at each of us, “WHEN DO WE EAT!!!,” adults after the commencement of the Age of Accountability are as helpless to find their own salvation as little children. The problem of children is no different – each, adults and kids, need God to make the first move, with grace.

There is no good reason to limit the free gift of salvation to adults.

So, Christ lays His hands upon – “Christifies” – all, including little kids.

So, Baptism is for them, too.
 
Peter_Dawson said:
When, in Matthew 19, Jesus insists that the “little children” be allowed to come to Him and that He be allowed to place His hands on them, that is not just a quaint story showing how Christ was a “child magnet.” It is a picture of a larger thing.

The *point * of the story, in Matthew 19, is that these kids are not just offspring, but “paidion” – little kids, way, way before the age of accountability.

Those who limit the availability of Baptism to non-psychotic people who have entered the age of accountability misunderstand Original Sin and God’s responsive grace.

In the Original Sin story, Eve’s response to the command respecting the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a picture of how each of us, in the absence of grace, would handle each and every moral decision.

From conception, each of us is a “sin machine,” whose innate potential for good, without grace, is zero.

Under the internal barrage of demands for sin, as six trillion cells scream at each of us, “WHEN DO WE EAT!!!,” adults after the commencement of the Age of Accountability are as helpless to find their own salvation as little children. The problem of children is no different – each, adults and kids, need God to make the first move, with grace.

There is no good reason to limit the free gift of salvation to adults.

So, Christ lays His hands upon – “Christifies” – all, including little kids.

So, Baptism is for them, too.
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That is very good and clear.

The question beyond this is why those who receive sacramental grace of one kind or another respond differently to God’s call. Many are called and few are chosen. Trying to explain this we end up talking about free will, but it really does not explain it. It gets close, but we are left not knowing why evil exists in the universe and our souls.
 
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