SPLIT: Baptism should be only for adults

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The Church doesn’t agree…since in teaching of the highest authority, they’ve condemned people who say that Baptism should not be given to infants, but only to adults.

***Second Lateran Council

Canons***
  1. Those who, simulating a kind of religiosity, condemn
  2. the sacrament of the Lord’s Body and Blood,
  3. the Baptism of children,
  4. the priesthood and other ecclesiastical orders, and
  5. legitimate marriages,
we expel from the Church of God and condemn as heretics, and prescribe that they be constrained by the secular powers. We also bind up their defenders in the fetter of the same condemnation.

***The Council of Vienne

Decrees***

All are faithfully to profess that there is one Baptism which regenerates all those baptized in Christ, just as there is one God and one faith’.

We believe that when Baptism is administered in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, it is **a perfect means of salvation for **both adults and children.

***The Council of Trent

Session 5***

If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam, - which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, - is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the One Mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath reconciled us to God in His own Blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of Baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life
everlasting,- whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of Baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, - let him be anathema.

– Nicole
I know this, having been raised by Catholic parents, attended Catholic schools, etc. Each of my children was baptized in the Church when they were little. I’m not questioning the Church’s view on baptism. I just think it would be kind of nice if we could make such a committment as adults. Of course, there are times when we do make a re-affirmation of our baptismal vows so I guess that counts.
 
Before I came to understand more about the Catholic Church I, too, strongly disagreed about infant baptism. The reason being, as a Baptist I had an entirely different view of baptism. To us, baptism isn’t like an initiation into the faith, but an outward sign of obedience *after *receiving Christ as Lord and Saviour. It’s a step we take after receving salvation to ceremoniously “wash away” our sins and “be born again” of water and spirit. As a Baptist who is learning more about Catholicism, I see the Catholic view of it clearly now and agree with it.

Before, I thought it was so wrong to baptize an infant who obviously had no choice or say in the matter. From a Baptist POV, baptism is the last step, not the first, and we view it differently so it’s understandable why many non-infant-baptizing people think it doesn’t make sense. So to me it was like a Catholic confirming an infant. But I now see what it really means in the Catholic Church and I really like the idea of it.

So I think that if other Protestants think the way I did, then you can see why it’s such an issue to them. They have probably never had it explained properly. My Catholic husband explained it to me, but not very well, and when we had our first son baptized I was very unsettled about it. Now we are having our 10wk old baptized in a couple of weeks and I am very happy about it after finding out more about the meaning of it. :love:
There are two issues to consider when the topic of infant baptism arises.

The first is what happens to a person when they are baptized. Is it really someonthng an adult does as a sign of obedience? Is that it? Jesus just wants us to take some action that has no meaning other than a demonstration that has no other significance. All that really happens to you when you are baptized is you get wet.

There are several places in the Old Testament where God promises through His prophets that He will raise up for Himself a royal priesthood. In another place the term is a priestly people, and a nation of priests in yet another. That is intersting. Has He done that? What does that mean? There is a lot of theology here. What is a priest? Many religions have priests, maybe most. A priest is someone who offers sacrifice.

Jesus is called the eternal high priest. Think about the two adjectives there. He is a priest forever, eternally. That means He offers sacrifice eternally. He is not called the only priest, or THE priest, but the high priest. That presumes there are others, but not as important, maybe as in an entire nation of priests God promises He will raise up for Himself. If there is such a royal nation of priestly people who are they? The eraly fathers of the Church said they were all the baptized. It is through baptism that people come to be part of this priestly people.

The Catechism of the Catohlic Church says that through baptism we come to share in Christ’s threefold office of priest, prophet and king. Jesus is the ETERNAL HIGH PRIEST, and He is KING OF KINGS. Interseting titles! And all the prophets point to Him.

He says of us people that unless we take up our cross and follow Him we are not worthy of Him, and in another translation, not worthy to be called His disciples. Jesus gave Himself as sacrifice and He tells us to follow Him. Take up an instrument of torture, suffering and death, or else you are not worthy of being among His followers. Pretty gruesome, but what is the point?

The priestly people, royal priesthood, nation of priests, if they are priests at all, have to offer some sacrifice, He offered Himself, and we do also. But what is the point? Why do we have to do this? What does it accomplish? His sacrifice was for the redemption of the world. It made our peace with God. It atoned for our sin.

The Church, all the baptised, is the body of Christ. His body is broken for the redemption of the world. He allows His priestly people to share with Him in His work.

At Pentecost tongues of fire came down from heaven and rested on the heads of those present in the room. What did that mean? When fire came down from heaven in the Old Testament it was to signify that the sacrifice of the prophet was acceptable to God. That fire was kept burning in the temple to consume the animals that were sacrificed. That is how the Jews knew their sacrifice was acceptable. At Mass listen to the words about acceptable sacrifice. The miracle of the lamps in the temple being kept burning with no oil was important, because it was the fire that came down from heaven. The tongues of fire at Pentecost signified those in the room themsleves were acceptable sacrifice.

What did those people tell others to do? Get baptized and join them.

Babies get sick and suffer and die on occassion. Is that suffering meaningless evil? If they are baptized their innocent suffering is joined to that of Jesus, as part of the priestly people, for the redemption of the world. They are incorporated into His Body and prieslty office through baptism.

Finally, think about when this idea that only adults should be baptized first came up. It was very recent in terms of Church history. Those who espouse it use their personal understanding and decide that they have the right to declare the Church from its very inception was wrong in her doctrine. These moderns are enlightened and know better than all the ages of Christians who were wrong. But Jesus promised that He would send His Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and be with us until the end of time. Was the Church of the first, second, tenth century wrong as Protestants say? What arrogance! I can read scripture and delcare the Church of ages past was wrong about this and that. My understanding rules.
 
Grandfather-

I wasn’t arguing against infant baptism. I believe in it. I am just explaining why some Protestants don’t get it. Their whole outlook on baptism is different.
 
Grandfather-

I wasn’t arguing against infant baptism. I believe in it. I am just explaining why some Protestants don’t get it. Their whole outlook on baptism is different.
My comments were not necessarily to you. Sorry I copied your post in.

There was a local Priotestant radio host who everyday makes a call in radio show out of discussing some controversial doctrine. The participants calling in are probably 99% Protestant. The controversies are generally among Protestants. Whatever the topic the conversations are almost the same everyday. The topic changes, but you could say the same things everyday and fill in the blanks where the topic fits in.

"I used to believe that it was true that --------------(salvation could not be lost----------or could be)-------
The reason I believed that was such and such a scripture.

But now I have changed my mind and believe-----------------this about that---------- because although that one scripture said this, this other scripture says that.

Can you see how the person makes himself the arbiter of truth, by using his own personal understanding of scripture? There is no doctrine no matter how long the Church consistently holds and teaches it that is not attacked by someone. Is there a Trinity? Not according to Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians. Should I have five wives or am I limited to one? Can I divorce her if I get tired of her and remarry a later model I think I like better? Is Christ present in the Eucharist or is it symbolic? There is no truth that we can hold with certainty.

A Baptist minsiter told me once that no church has all of its doctrines correct. All are mistaken about something and to think otherwise is arrogant. But Jesus said we would be led into all truth, I said. He said your Church believes it has all of its doctrines true. I agreed. I asked him which of the Baptist doctrines he believes are false. He looked at me as if I were crazy and said if he knew he would not believe them. I said, If you say some of your doctrines are false, but do not know which ones, then neither do you know which of your beliefs are true.

Jesus said He would lead us into ALL truth. If His promises are true then His Church has always believed that which is true in matters of faith. His promises say that we will not believe things that are false about sacraments, heaven, hell, morals, the communion of saints, etc.

If the Church believed infants should be baptized for 1800 or 1900 plus years and was wrong until some Protestant denomination figured it out, then Jesus has not led us into truth for all these centuries.

Imagine the person studying scripture who believes he has the authority to determine truth for himself in doing it, making the claim that there are no sacraments. That is what George Fox the Quaker did. The arrogance is beyond belief and yet my Baptist preacher friend says the opposite. He says the Catholic Church is arrogant for thinking its doctrines are true. How confused can people be?
 
Maybe this illustration will help:
Reading thru a magazine once I came upon an interesting collection of photos. The first picture is of a tiny infant wearing a pair of oversized adult bluejeans. One could hardly see the baby. The next photos showed every year for the next fifteen years. At the age of fifteen the child has grown into his bluejeans.
That’s Baptism.
You grow into who you are. Baptism is not my announcment that I have enough faith to recieve it. It is finally recieving by faith what was freely given to me in Baptism.
Hello Justaservant,I was asked the question many years ago, ‘Why do Catholics baptize babies’?

In searching for the answer I found this teaching… Catholics believe the **power **is in the
**sacrament of Baptism **even though the power cannot be seen.

That is why they baptize babies.

Now the way I understand Protestant belief on Baptism is that for them they have to have the faith before they can believe in the power.So they baptize only adults.

Protestants have to believe in the sign firstthat is why they only baptize adults.
For Catholics- the **faith is in believing the power **in the sign of Baptism. I hope I’ve put that clearly, and that it makes sense.😃 Carlan
 
I think I’m going to need some Divine Intervention to navigate this site.
 
Baptism starts the process.
We don’t have to accept every gift given us.
 
I had a non-Catholic friend when I was little.
He said the same thing, then you can decide for yourself.
As a child, that made sense to me.
Now, not so much.
There is ONE baptism, it needs to be in the name of the Trinity.
It does not guarantee your entrance into heaven.
Catholics don’t have a lot of the terms you constantly hear…
like Saved, Born Again, etc.
Doesn’t mean we don’t believe in their power, if not agreeing down to the tee.
 
Can you see how the person makes himself the arbiter of truth, by using his own personal understanding of scripture? There is no doctrine no matter how long the Church consistently holds and teaches it that is not attacked by someone. Is there a Trinity? Not according to Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians. Should I have five wives or am I limited to one? Can I divorce her if I get tired of her and remarry a later model I think I like better? Is Christ present in the Eucharist or is it symbolic? There is no truth that we can hold with certainty.

Jesus said He would lead us into ALL truth. If His promises are true then His Church has always believed that which is true in matters of faith. His promises say that we will not believe things that are false about sacraments, heaven, hell, morals, the communion of saints, etc.
Very wise assessment, Grandfather. All of what you said was good, I just quoted my favorite part. 👍
 
I know this, having been raised by Catholic parents, attended Catholic schools, etc. Each of my children was baptized in the Church when they were little. I’m not questioning the Church’s view on baptism. I just think it would be kind of nice if we could make such a committment as adults. Of course, there are times when we do make a re-affirmation of our baptismal vows so I guess that counts.
That’s a good point - there’s not a declarative moment in Catholic soteriology when you can say “I’m saved forever going forward no matter what!” like in some Protestant churches.

There’s also nothing preventing you from renewing your commitment to Christ as an adult. This could (and should) even be part of your daily prayers, a re-committment of yourself and your life to your Savior. That is entirely in line with Catholic theology. Sacramentally, receiving the Eucharist is also a re-committment to Christ, a very public declaration of your faith as well as a personal and intimate re-connection.
 
This question made me think of the many infants who have been baptized. They certainly hadn’t had the chance to know or believe anything. Personally, I think it makes a lot more sense to be baptized as an adult when you can know, understand and, hopefully, believe.
True, but remember, it isn’t just about understanding. An infant cannot meet the Biblical requirements, such as being born again, to be baptised.
 
Why isn’t God’s grace extended to infants through baptism? Makes no sense.
  1. Catholics allow for God’s grace to be effective through baptism for the infant.
  2. The Church simply appeals to God’s mercy for those who have not been baptized and die.
    This is very different from the assumptions made by evangelicals that
  3. infants should not be baptized because there is no grace in baptism (a form of dualism believing that grace cannot be found in the physical.).
  4. Either an age of accountability which is uncertain, or an assumtion that those not of that age are automatically damned or saved, depending on the denomination, both of which cannot be proven through scripture.
 
Why isn’t God’s grace extended to infants through baptism? Makes no sense.
  1. Catholics allow for God’s grace to be effective through baptism for the infant.
  2. The Church simply appeals to God’s mercy for those who have not been baptized and die.
    This is very different from the assumptions made by evangelicals that
  3. infants should not be baptized because there is no grace in baptism (a form of dualism believing that grace cannot be found in the physical.).
  4. Either an age of accountability which is uncertain, or an assumtion that those not of that age are automatically damned or saved, depending on the denomination, both of which cannot be proven through scripture.
What denomination teaches that children below the age of accountability are “automatically damned”?
 
This question made me think of the many infants who have been baptized. They certainly hadn’t had the chance to know or believe anything. Personally, I think it makes a lot more sense to be baptized as an adult when you can know, understand and, hopefully, believe.
(1) Grace at any point in our lives is free, and calls to one profoundly alienated from God. An adult sinner is no less alienated – and no less a salvation problem – than a baby.

So, why shouldn’t God extend free grace to babies?

Was not Mary conceived immaculately by grace?

(2) Adults who have, by their perverse wills, interposed sin and pride between themselves and Gods may be a bigger problem than babies.

Christ asked, “Which is easier – to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven?,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk!’?” There’s a joke built into Christ’s words – to say, “Your sins are forgiven” is the more difficult thing – the deeper problem.
 
What denomination teaches that children below the age of accountability are “automatically damned”?
Many Reformed and Calvinist churches do.

“We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death.” - John Calvin
 
Many Reformed and Calvinist churches do.
That’s really interesting because I belong to a church that is Reformed in it’s theology, went to a seminary that is Reformed, and travel in Reformed circles and have never heard of any Reformed denomination that teaches this.

I asked you for examples and you just said “many” but that’s not really an example, is it?

Can you give the name of a denomination that teaches this. To make it a little simpler for you, let’s say that you got a letter from this denomination and you looked in the upper left hand corner of the envelope. Who would it say sent you the letter?
 
True, but remember, it isn’t just about understanding. An infant cannot meet the Biblical requirements, such as being born again, to be baptised.
We are born again when we are baptized, not before. 👍
 
Many Reformed and Calvinist churches do.

“We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death.” - John Calvin
Do you have a reference for this statement from Calvin? Where did he write this?
 
We are born again when we are baptized, not before. 👍
And I understand that you, as a Catholic, believe that. But we believe the BIblical teaching on baptism, that it is a response to salvation, not a means of salvation.
 
That’s really interesting because I belong to a church that is Reformed in it’s theology, went to a seminary that is Reformed, and travel in Reformed circles and have never heard of any Reformed denomination that teaches this.

I asked you for examples and you just said “many” but that’s not really an example, is it?

Can you give the name of a denomination that teaches this. To make it a little simpler for you, let’s say that you got a letter from this denomination and you looked in the upper left hand corner of the envelope. Who would it say sent you the letter?
Off topic, but I’ll answer.
From your own Reformed Confession:
  1. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. WCF 10.3
It begs the question, what are “unelect” infants? And where do they Go? I spent much time among Calvinists. and this question often came up. It was squirted, spinned, and otherwise. I witnessed more than a few Calvinists tell a woman who had three miscarriages, that her unborn children perhaps were ‘unelect’.
I can still feel the anger welling up in me.
So lets get back on topic.
 
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