SPLIT: Bible verses that show God is mean

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SanctusEnigma40

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Who says that God is mean? Naaah, that cannot be. That is until I started reading the Old Testament. Lets see:

Beligerence and Ruthlessness of Jehovah:
Gen. 35:5, Ex. 14:14, 14:25-28, 15:3 and 17.16; Deut. 4:33-35, 7:21-24, 10:17-21, 11:25, 20:1-4, 20:16-17, 31:3, 32:21-26 and 32:39-42; Josh. 5:13-14, 10:25; 1st Sam. 2:25, 17:45-47; 2nd Sam. 22:25; 2nd Chr. 20:15-17; Neh 4:20; Psalms 18:34-40, 24:8 and 144:1; Isaiah 13:4, 31:4, 42:13 and 66:15-17; Jer 1:19, 21:5-12, 48:10, 50:25 and 51:11; Joel 2:10-11 and 3:10; Zech 8:10, 9:14-16 and 14:3; 2nd Cor. 5:11; and Heb. 10:31

Cannibalism - Threatened, Predicted, or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:29; 2nd Kings 6:27; Is. 49:26; Jer. 19:9; Lam. 2:20; Lam. 4:10; and Ezek. 5:10

Infants or Children killed, Suggested or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:22; Num 31:17; Deut. 3:6; 1 Sam. 15:3; 2nd Sam. 12:15-18; Ps. 137:8-9; Isa. 14:21, 13:18; Jer. 2:30, 15:7 and 18:21; Lam. 4:10; Ezek. 9:6; Hos. 2:4, 9:12 and 13:16

Innocent People Punished by Jehovah
Gen. 9:20-25, 20:18; Ex. 12:29-30, 20:5; Lev. 21:17-21; Deut. 5:9; 1st Sam. 3:11-14; 2nd Sam. 5:8; Job 1:1-19, 2:1-7, 30:20-31; and Isa. 14:21

Vindictiveness of Jehovah
Num. 11:31-34; Ps. 94:1; Isa. 34:1-15; Jer. 5:29-31, 9:9, 46:10, 50:13-15 and 51:36; Rom 12:19; Heb. 10:30-31

Commandments given, with extreme punishment for breaking by Jehovah
Ex. 31:14-15; Lev. 20:10-21, 21:9 and 24:10-16; Num. 5:12-27, 15:32-36; Deut 13:6-10, 13:12-16,17:2-6,21:18-21, 22:21; and Zech. 13:3

Hostility of Jehovah
Ps. 2:12, 6:1, 7:6, 7:11, 21:9, 27:9, 38:3, 47:2, 56:7, 59:13, 68:35, 69:24, 74:1-2, 76:12, 77:12, 77:9, 78:21, 78:31, 78:49-50, 78:58-66, 79:5, 80:4-6, 106:29, 106:32 and 106:40

Mercilessness of Jehovah
Deut. 7:2, 7:16 and 20:12-17; Ps. 1:4-9; Isa. 9:17-20; Jer. 20:16

Deception by Jehovah
1st Kings 22:23; 2nd Chr. 18-22; Is. 19:14, 66:4; Jer. 4:10, 18:11, 20:7, and 51:11; Ezek. 14:9 and 20:25-26

Evil Carried Out or Threatened by Jehovah
Jud. 2:15, 9:23; 1st Sam. 16:14-15, 18:10; 2nd Sam. 21:11, 24:15-16; 1st kings 14:10, 22:23; 2nd Kings 21:12-15; 2nd Chr. 18:22; Isa. 19:14, 31:2 and 45:7; Jer. 1:14-16, 11;11, 11:17, 11:23, 18:7. 18:11, 19:15, 21:9-12. 25:29, 32:42, 35:17, 36:3, 44:2, 44:11, 44:27-29, 45:5, and Amos 3:6

Killings by Jehovah, with his help or under his command

Gen. 5:24, 7:21-23, 19:24-25, 38:7 and 38:10, Ex. 12:29-30, 32:25-28 (3,000 killed); Lev. 10:1-2; Num. 11:1, (Many burned to death by Jehovah), 14:26-37, 16:32-35, 16:44-49 (14,700 killed), 21:5-6, 25:1-9 (24,000 killed), 31:7-18 and 33:4; Deut. 2:20-21, 2: 30-34 and 3:3-7 (people of 60 cities and other towns all killed); Josh. 6:21-24, 8:25-28 (12,000 killed), 10:10-13, 10:28-42 and 11:6:14; Jud. 1:4 (10,000 killed), 3:29 (10,000 killed), 8:10 (120,000 killed), 11:32-33, 12:6 (42,000 killed), 18:27, 20:23-25 (18,000 killed), 20:35 (25,000 killed) and 20:48; 1st Sam. 6:19 (Jehovah kills 50,070), 15:1-8 (all Amalekites), 23:1-5, 25:39 (Jehovah murders Nabal), 27:7-11 (all Amalekites again), 30:1-2 and 30:8 & 30:17 (all Amalekites except for 400); 2nd Sam. 5:19-25, 6:6-7 (Uzzah killed by jehovah for steading the Ark), 8:1-5, 8:13 (18,000 killed), 10:18 (more than 40,000 killed), 12:14-18 (David infant child murdered by Jehovah), 23:10-12 and 24:15,(70,000 killed); 1st King 18:19&40 (450 prophets killed), 20:28-30 (100,000 killed); 2nd kings 1:10-12, 2:23-24 (42 children killed), 10:17-30, 17:25 (lions sent by Jehovah to kill people) and 19:35 (Angel of the Lord Kills 185,000); 1st Chr. 5:19-22, 10:13-14 (the Lord kills King Saul); 2 Chr. 13:15-18 (500,000 killed), 13:20 (the Lord murders Jeroboam), 14:8-15 (One Million Killed), 20:22-25, 25:11-12 (10,000 killed on two occasions = 20,000 killed), 28:5-8 (120,000 killed) and 36:15-17; Esther 9:9-13 (510 killed); Jer. 33:5; Lam. 2:1-22, 5:43; Ezek 9:5-10

1 Samuel 15:2-3, 7-8
"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *** …’ 
And Saul … utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
All that amounts to an overuse of “utterly destroy”. You would have thought that after Moses brought down the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20), with the explicit “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), there would be some kind of objection to killing thousands of people, including women and children. Let’s face it - if anyone here today got a vision from God telling him/her to go kill an entire race of people, it’s far more likely the person would be declared insane rather than that becoming acceptable justification for utterly destroying cities and tribes.

No Mercy
Deuteronomy 7:2 
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deutenomomy 20:13-14,16
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Judges 18:27
27 Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.

Yep! He can be pretty mean indeed!
 
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Sometimes I forget that there really are people out there with absolutely no idea what words mean and what justice is. Thanks for the reminder.

Before you read any further (though you have not convinced me that you have actually read any of the passages you referenced, you just pasted them from some atheist site and maybe change it around a bit) you should learn about something call, wait for it, context. And while you are learning what that is, here is another concept you need to understand, it is called, justice.
 
SanctusEnigma40 said:
Who says that God is mean? Naaah, that cannot be. That is until I started reading the Old Testament. Lets see:

Beligerence and Ruthlessness of Jehovah:
Gen. 35:5, Ex. 14:14, 14:25-28, 15:3 and 17.16; Deut. 4:33-35, 7:21-24, 10:17-21, 11:25, 20:1-4, 20:16-17, 31:3, 32:21-26 and 32:39-42; Josh. 5:13-14, 10:25; 1st Sam. 2:25, 17:45-47; 2nd Sam. 22:25; 2nd Chr. 20:15-17; Cannibalism - Threatened, Predicted, or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:29; 2nd Kings 6:27; Is. 49:26; Jer. 19:9; Lam. 2:20; Lam. 4:10; and Ezek. 5:10

Infants or Children killed, Suggested or Carried out by Jehovah
Lev. 26:22; Num 31:17; Deut. 3:6; 1 Sam. 15:3; 2nd Sam. 12:15-18; Ps. 137:8-9; Isa. 14:21, 13:18; Jer. 2:30, 15:7 and 18:21; Lam. 4:10; Ezek. 9:6; Hos. 2:4, 9:12 and 13:16

Innocent People Punished by Jehovah
Gen. 9:20-25, 20:18; Ex. 12:29-30, 20:5; Lev. 21:17-21; Deut. 5:9; 1st Sam. 3:11-14; 2nd Sam. 5:8; Job 1:1-19, 2:1-7, 30:20-31; and Isa. 14:21

Vindictiveness of Jehovah
Num. 11:31-34; Ps. 94:1; Isa. 34:1-15; Jer. 5:29-31, 9:9, 46:10, 50:13-15 and 51:36; Rom 12:19; Heb. 10:30-31

Commandments given, with extreme punishment for breaking by Jehovah
Ex. 31:14-15; Lev. 20:10-21, 21:9 and 24:10-16; Num. 5:12-27, 15:32-36; Deut 13:6-10, 13:12-16,17:2-6,21:18-21, 22:21; and Zech. 13:3

Hostility of Jehovah
Ps. 2:12, 6:1, 7:6, 7:11, 21:9, 27:9, 38:3, 47:2, 56:7, 59:13, 68:35, 69:24, 74:1-2, 76:12, 77:12, 77:9, 78:21, 78:31, 78:49-50, 78:58-66, 79:5, 80:4-6, 106:29, 106:32 and 106:40

Mercilessness of Jehovah
Deut. 7:2, 7:16 and 20:12-17; Ps. 1:4-9; Isa. 9:17-20; Jer. 20:16

Deception by Jehovah
1st Kings 22:23; 2nd Chr. 18-22; Is. 19:14, 66:4; Jer. 4:10, 18:11, 20:7, and 51:11; Ezek. 14:9 and 20:25-26

Evil Carried Out or Threatened by Jehovah
Jud. 2:15, 9:23; 1st Sam. 16:14-15, 18:10; 2nd Sam. 21:11, 24:15-16; 1st kings 14:10, 22:23; 2nd Kings 21:12-15; 2nd Chr. 18:22; Isa. 19:14, 31:2 and 45:7; Jer. 1:14-16, 11;11, 11:17, 11:23, 18:7. 18:11,

Killings by Jehovah, with his help or under his command

Gen. 5:24, 7:21-23, 19:24-25, 38:7 and 38:10, Ex. 12:29-30, 32:25-28 (3,000 killed); Lev. 10:1-2; Num. 11:1, (Many burned to death by Jehovah), 14:26-37, 16:32-35, 16:44-49 (14,700 killed), 21:5-6, 25:1-9 (24,000 killed), 31:7-18 and 33:4; Deut. 2:20-21, 2: 30-34 and 3:3-7 (people of 60 cities and other towns all killed); Josh. 6:21-24, 8:25-28 (12,000 killed), 10:10-13, 10:28-42 and 11:6:14; Jud. 1:4 (10,000 killed), 3:29 (10,000 killed), 8:10 (120,000 killed), 11:32-33, 12:6 (42,000 killed), 18:27, 20:23-25 (18,000 killed), 20:35 (25,000 killed) and 20:48; 1st Sam. 6:19 (Jehovah kills 50,070), 15:1-8 (all Amalekites), 23:1-5, 25:39 (Jehovah murders Nabal), 27:7-11 (all Amalekites again), 30:1-2 and 30:8 & 30:17 (all Amalekites except for 400); 2nd Sam. 5:19-25, 6:6-7 (Uzzah killed by jehovah for steading the Ark), 8:1-5, 8:13 (18,000 killed),

1 Samuel 15:2-3, 7-8
"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *** …’ 
And Saul … utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
All that amounts to an overuse of “utterly destroy”. You would have thought that after Moses brought down the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20), with the explicit “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), there would be some kind of objection to killing thousands of people, including women and children. Let’s face it - if anyone here today got a vision from God telling him/her to go kill an entire race of people, it’s far more likely the person would be declared insane rather than that becoming acceptable justification for utterly destroying cities and tribes.

No Mercy
Deuteronomy 7:2 
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Deutenomomy 20:13-14,16
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Judges 18:27
27 Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.

Yep! He can be pretty mean indeed!
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As the OOP of “Why is God so mean” I felt compelled to respond to this.

***Jehovah in NOT, was NOT, never will be God, Trinue, or God the Yahweh father!

God could not and cannot be God [truly God] if He “were mean!” God is amd must be by virtue of Divine Nature; Just and Fair, it is only human perception that permits US imperfect as we are to judge incorrectly God as “mean” ***👍
 
OP shows how woefully inadequate people’s knowledge and understanding of the bible is.
First verses must be in context- context is extremely important.
second -socio-cultural study can show what is really being said- in the context of a certain place and time.
Third-history/geography-history and geography of an area will determine how and why people act in their timeframe.
fourth-language,syntax idiom determine how something is expressed -and do we really get what they are really saying.
biblical scholarship is complex and things that seem apparent very often are not.
literalistic fundamentalist type read of scripture is often wrong.
 
Well, what did you expect? That God is some sort of hippie who is all about ‘love’ and ‘peace’ (as the world defines them) and losing our spines?

People often look at the “mercy” part of God (which is not a bad thing) too much that at times they tend to lose sight of the “justice” part - even to the point of being shocked when finally noticing it. Yes, God is merciful and loving, but we should not forget that He is also holy. God is not playing games with mankind; He is serious about people serving Him, and about the consequences for people who choose not to serve Him. God is infinite goodness; therefore, He could not tolerate evil.

In Psalm 89:14 it is said:

Righteousness and judgment are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness are in front of your face.
 
juliamajor said:
OP shows how woefully inadequate people’s knowledge and understanding of the bible is.
First verses must be in context- context is extremely important.
second -socio-cultural study can show what is really being said- in the context of a certain place and time.
Third-history/geography-history and geography of an area will determine how and why people act in their timeframe.
fourth-language,syntax idiom determine how something is expressed -and do we really get what they are really saying.
biblical scholarship is complex and things that seem apparent very often are not.
literalistic fundamentalist type read of scripture is often wrong.
Click to expand...
Correct! 👍 One of the reasons why many people keep going to weird conclusions when reading the Bible (and why reading it in the literalistic ‘fundamentalistic’ manner is faulty) is that they expect it to be no different from the morning paper or a modern paperback. They never approach it as one would do an ancient work written in another culture and in another time (like the Homeric epics or even medieval poetry) - they just pick it and expect to understand it smoothly in their 21st century lenses. The idea of historic-cultural-linguistic context never crosses their mind.
 
And, as I have often written in other threads on the same topic, the time before Christ was one of strict justice. There was only one way to repay to God the justice he demands at that time–the keeping of the Law of Moses, and the sacrifices set up for that purpose. The other nations rejected God’s way and preferred to worship idols of their own making.

It’s the same today, except for the fact that Christ is now the expiation for our sins. All we need do is follow Christ in his Church as he set it up. There is still judgment for sin, but it has been tempered with mercy poured out through the redemption Christ gained for us.

The OT had a different covenant and justice was immediate. We are now living under the covenant of Christ, which gives the appearance that God has somehow changed. He hasn’t changed, only the terms of the covenant have changed. We have greater access to God’s mercy, something for which we all ought to thank God on our knees every day instead of bemoaning the fate of people of another time who have long since gone to their just reward, whatever God may have decided it to be.
 
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godsgirl10:
What is your point in saying that God is mean???
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Ahhhhhh…Hummmmm…If your just read the bible verses I posted (in context by all means) and still think that God is a a Loving Father and a Good, Merciful, and Longsuffering God, then you are beyond help. Keep Worshiping your Monst…, I mean your God. Good Luck!
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john7:
FILLED
WITH RIGHTEOUS
WRATH
Click to expand...
 
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godsgirl10:
What is your point in saying that God is mean???
Click to expand...
Ahhhhhh…Hummmmm…If your just read the bible verses I posted (in context by all means) and still think that God is a a Loving Father and a Good, Merciful, and Longsuffering God, then you are beyond help. Keep Worshiping your Monst…, I mean your God. Good Luck!
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john7:
FILLED
WITH RIGHTEOUS
WRATH
Click to expand...
Yeah right, I am sure all the innocent children and babies murdered by your God really deserved the “righteous Wrath” of the monster you worship as God! You are exactly the kind of person that gives Religion a bad reputation. Are you the same Catholic guy who rallies in the abortion clinics to protest and repudiate the murder of innocent babies? When a woman does it is Extremely evil, but when god do it, He is exercising his rightfull wrath! What a joke of a christian you are! Please stay away from me! Your sense of Morality makes me want to puke!

Della said:
“He’s not a tame lion, but he’s good.” C. S. Lewis
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Nahh!, He is not Good. He is in fact so evil that makes Hitler and Stalin look like Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Another thing, a lion at least only kills for food!
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catholic1seeks:
God is just.

But even more so, God is merciful!!
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Let me see, Just : Hmm…Not according to the Old testament! He punishes the innocent for the sins of their fathers (and in doing so he contradicts himself with other verses that declare the opposite) want an example: We all come to this world paying for the sins of Our original Mother and Father Adam and Eve. He Do not only kill Korah in the wilderness, but His Wife and little children with them. I can give you many other examples if you want.

And what is the other one…ahh! Merciful! Hmmm… Merciful?? Merciful?? Are you kidding me?? Have you read at least 10 % of the verses i posted?? You’ve got to be kidding me! Right??
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rpp:
Sometimes I forget that there really are people out there with absolutely no idea what words mean and what justice is. Thanks for the reminder.

Before you read any further (though you have not convinced me that you have actually read any of the passages you referenced, you just pasted them from some atheist site and maybe change it around a bit) you should learn about something call, wait for it, context. And while you are learning what that is, here is another concept you need to understand, it is called, justice.
Click to expand...
I think you repeated justice 2 times! rpp, rpp… what am i going to do with you!
Ok! You are saying that all of the atrocities of your God in the Old testament are basically Justice.
Killing innocents with the guilty (Like what happened with Korah in the wilderness, or with the babies and sucklings of the amalekites, or the firstborns of egypt, or with all the babies killed on Noah’s Flood), or all the rest of the babies commanded to be killed from the rest of the canaanites) is like putting a death row inmate in the middle of a bunch of children and innocent people, and shooting at Him from 18 feet with a 12 gage shotgun!

God can surely be more able of applying his own brand of justice with a little more precision. (Edited) You just want to sound smart! Good Luck Worshiping your Monster God. Be careful though, He might kill you by mistake.
Last but not least, I use to teach Bible for 25 years, and have read the complete freaking Bible over 15 times. Feel free to probe me on this. I did copy some of this verses from some web-sites just because i am so lazy to type them all.
If this is the best you can do, you make me laugh!
I look forward to answer any challenge from you!
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PJM:
it is only human perception that permits US imperfect as we are to judge incorrectly God as “mean”
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Well, we are suppose to use the perception, judging, ability to reason that was given to us, to analyze things. If I am not allowed to Say that the way that God acts in the Old Testament is Evil, then you are not allowed to say that He is Good. You are just trying to play with semantics. If i rescue someone from drowning everybody say that what I did is Good. If God sends a Tsunami and kills hundreds of thousands, we turn around and still call God Good! When you apply to God goodness in this way, the definition of “Good” looses all meaning, because the very definition of “Good” looses all meaning when you are applying it to God. So If I do not get to call your God “Evil”, then you do not get to call your God “Good”. The logical conclusion from all this verses that i posted (read in context) is that God is Evil.
 
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juliamajor:
OP shows how woefully inadequate people’s knowledge and understanding of the bible is.
First verses must be in context- context is extremely important.
second -socio-cultural study can show what is really being said- in the context of a certain place and time.
Third-history/geography-history and geography of an area will determine how and why people act in their timeframe.
fourth-language,syntax idiom determine how something is expressed -and do we really get what they are really saying.
biblical scholarship is complex and things that seem apparent very often are not.
literalistic fundamentalist type read of scripture is often wrong.
Click to expand...
Ok juliamajor, go ahead and illustrate me! apply all your rationalization techniques that you want and try to explain all of them away. Use all the context that you want by all means. Also use all the history and geography that you want if it makes you feel happy. Good Luck. When you are done let me know, there are so many more where this came from.
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patrick457:
Well, what did you expect? That God is some sort of hippie who is all about ‘love’ and ‘peace’ (as the world defines them) and losing our spines?

People often look at the “mercy” part of God (which is not a bad thing) too much that at times they tend to lose sight of the “justice” part - even to the point of being shocked when finally noticing it. Yes, God is merciful and loving, but we should not forget that He is also holy. God is not playing games with mankind; He is serious about people serving Him, and about the consequences for people who choose not to serve Him. God is infinite goodness; therefore, He could not tolerate evil.
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What do I expect?? Excuse me?? WHAT DO I EXPECT!!!
I expect that the God you are trying to shove in my head make some sense. I expect that if you like to defend God so much, that at least you can present a God that makes freaking sense.
Have at least the decency to preach to me a God that is a little bit more consistent.
Don’t talk to me about your Merciful God, and pontificate me for hours about your Long-suffering God, who is Merciful, and Patient, that is Slow to anger, and Loves Children, and Waits like a Loving Father for the unrepentant to come back, and in the same breath then have the unmitigated audacity to tell me that that same guy will send countless Billions of people for ever and ever to fry in an Eternal Hell Forever and Ever in the Most agonizing pains tortures and suffering Forever and ever.

Don’t even start talking to me about a God who is the loving Father of jesus, and then tell me that this is the same Guy Who committed and/or commanded all those Atrocities, Genocide’s, Massive murders, Bloody Revenges, Plain acts of Vindictiveness, and just plain Evil!

Are you the kind of Christian too that rallies on Abortion clinics to protest the killing of children? If you are, you might be in a shock to learn that God Kill many many children and babies in the Old testament.

I couldn’t care less about a hippie God either. You can shove it too! All I am asking is for you to make your mind about your freaking God. Make him a Hippie if you will, or make him a murderous SOB, but just don’t keep preaching me a freaking Dr. Jekill & Mr Hide God in Heaven.
Who do you worship for God?? A freaking Lunatic that suffers from Alzheimer’s?? Is your God forgetting to take his medications lately???

Make up your freaking mind, and then worship him whatever way you want, but make up your freaking mind as to what He is suppose to be.

That will be nice for a change!
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patrick457:
The idea of historic-cultural-linguistic context never crosses their mind.
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Go ahead! Be my guest! Try to rationalize/explain away this verses away with your historic-cultural-linguistic approach. Lets see you do some rationalizing acrobatics with the verses that describe your loving God killing innocent, children and babies. Good Luck! Let me know when you are done. I have more for you!
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Della:
which gives the appearance that God has somehow changed
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Nice try again Della! God is suppose to be the same yesterday, today and forever. Anyone that do not see that the God of the Testament is very different than the one from the New Testament is in delusion.

The God of the Old Testament is much more merciful that the New testament.

For example, in the Old testament, God will impale you, kill you as a baby, as a sukling, or as child, Drown you, Send you to Sheol Alive, Send Beast to Kill you, exterminate you with diverse plagues, and in agonizing or swiftly deaths, burn you alive, or just plain stone you to death.

But at least when He killed you, He was done with you. You are dead and that was all.

In the New testament, we are presented now with another brand of justice. Now after you die, He will have the pleasure, to fry you in Hell forever and ever in the most agonizing pains and physical/mental/emotional tortures ever known to mankind, for all eternity.

And while all this is going on, don’t you forget that he Loves you!

I think He just went from Bad to Worst! Now how is all this suppose to be good news??

hummm… I think I will pass on that!
 
Okaaay, now let’s do something fun (at least, what I consider to be fun, anyway). Since there is a rule that “context is everything”, let’s “rationalize” these passages, shall we?
SanctusEnigma40 said:
Beligerence and Ruthlessness of Jehovah:
Gen. 35:5, Ex. 14:14, 14:25-28, 15:3 and 17.16; Deut. 4:33-35, 7:21-24, 10:17-21, 11:25, 20:1-4, 20:16-17, 31:3, 32:21-26 and 32:39-42; Josh. 5:13-14, 10:25; 1st Sam. 2:25, 17:45-47; 2nd Sam. 22:25; 2nd Chr. 20:15-17; Neh 4:20; Psalms 18:34-40, 24:8 and 144:1; Isaiah 13:4, 31:4, 42:13 and 66:15-17; Jer 1:19, 21:5-12, 48:10, 50:25 and 51:11; Joel 2:10-11 and 3:10; Zech 8:10, 9:14-16 and 14:3; 2nd Cor. 5:11; and Heb. 10:31
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Genesis 35:1-6:

1: Then Elohim said to Jacob, “Arise, go up to Beith-El and dwell there. Make an altar there to 'El who appeared to you you when you fled from the face of Esau your brother.”
2: And Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Take away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and purify yourselves, and change your clothes!
3: Let us arise and let us go up to Beith-El, and I will make an altar there to 'El, who answered me in my day of distress and has been with me in the way which I went.”
4: So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods which were in their hand and the rings that were in their ears. Jacob buried them under the terebinth that was near Shekem.
5: And they journeyed; and the terror of Elohim was upon the cities which were round about them, and they did not pursue the sons of Jacob.
6: And Jacob came to Luz which is in the land of Canaan – that is, Beith-El – he and all the people who were with him.

The phrase “terror of Elohim” (Khitta Elohim; khitta is an hapax legomenon) can be rendered in three main ways:
(1) A fear of God (objective genitive; God is the object of their fear).
(2) “Fear from God,” that is, fear which God placed in them.
(3) Elohim is here used as a superlative here, referring to “tremendous fear”.

Note that this passage happens just after two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, ravaged and plundered Shekem in revenge for their sister Dinah (Genesis 34). So, in one sense, it would be natural for neighboring areas to fear Jacob, his party, or their God (after all, no one wants their lives taken and their riches plundered in retaliation)!

Ex. 14:10-28 (in full)

10: When Pharaoh drew near, the sons of Israel lifted up their eyes; and behold, the Mitzrim (Egyptians) were marching after them, and they feared greatly. The sons of Israel cried out to YHWH,
11: and they said to Moses, “Is it because there are no graves in Mitzraim that you have taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you dealt with us so - to bring us up out of Mitzraim?
12: Is not this the word that we spoke to you in Mitzraim, saying, ‘Let us alone that we may serve the Mitzri?’ because it is better for us to serve the Mitzrim than to die in the wilderness!”
13: And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand firm and see the salvation of YHWH that He will do for you today; for the Mitzrim that you see today, you will no longer see again, for ever.
14: YHWH will make war for you, and you can be still.”
15: YHWH said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Speak to the sons of Israel that they might journey.”
16: And you - lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, so that the sons of Israel may go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.
17: And me - I am about to harden the hearts of the Mitzrim and they shall follow them, and I will be honored over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.
18: And Mitzraim will know I am YHWH when I have gained my honor over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."
19: The angel of Elohim, who was going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the column of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.
20: It came between the camp of Mitzraim and the camp of Israel; and it was the cloud and the darkness, and it gave light by night so that one camp did not come near the other all night.
21: Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and YHWH drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and made the sea into dry ground, and the water was split.
22: And the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on dry ground, and the waters were for them a wall on their right hand and on their left.
23: And the Mitzrim pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea - all the horses of Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24: Now it came to pass, that in the morning watch YHWH looked down on the camp of Mitzrim through the column of fire and cloud, and He threw the camp of Mitzrim into confusion.
25: And He bound the wheels of their chariots that they drove them with difficulty; and the Mitzri said, "Let’s flee from Israel, for YHWH is fighting for them against Mitzraim!"
26:** And YHWH said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may come back on the Mitzrim, on their chariots, and on their horsemen!”**
27: So Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to to its perennial state at the turning of the morning. Now the Mitzrim were fleeing towards it, and YHWH shook off the Mitzrim in the midst of the sea.
28: The water returned and covered the chariots and the horsemen and all the army of Pharaoh was coming after them into the sea - not so much as one remained among them!
 
Exodus 15:1-13

1: Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to YHWH, and spoke, saying:

"I will sing to YHWH, for He is highly exalted;
Horse and rider He has hurled into the sea!
2: YH is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation;
This is my El, and I will praise Him, my father’s Elohim, and I will exalt Him.
3: YHWH is a man of war, YHWH is His name.

4: The chariots of Pharaoh and his army He has thrown into the sea,
And the choice of his officers were sunk in Yam Suph.
5: The deep places have covered them;
They went down into the depths like a stone.
6: Your right hand, YHWH, is glorious in power,
your right hand, YHWH, shattered the enemy!

7: In the abundance of your majesty you have thrown down those who rise up against you;
You sent forth your wrath; it consumed them like chaff.
8: By the the wind of your nostrils the waters were piled up;
The flowing waters stood up like a heap;
The depths were solidified in the heart of the sea.

9: The enemy said, ‘I will chase, I will overtake,
I will divide the spoil; my soul will be filled on them.
I will draw my sword, my hand will root them out.’
10: You blew with your breath - the sea covered them!
They sank like lead in the mighty waters.

11: Who is like you, YHWH, among the gods?
Who is like you, majestic in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12: You stretched out your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13: By your steadfast-love you led the people whom you redeemed;
You guided them by your strength to your holy abode.

No need for explanations for the above two. Now to move on:

Exodus 17:8: And Amalek came and attacked Israel in Rephidim.
9: So Moses said to Yehoshua, “Choose us some men and go out, fight with Amalek. Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the staff of Elohim in my hand.”
10: And Yehoshua did as Moses had said to him, to fight with Amalek. And Moses and 'Aharon and Hur went up to the top of the hill.
11: And it happened that when Moses held up his hand, then Israel prevailed; but whenever he would rest his hands, then Amalek prevailed.
12: Now the hands of Moses were heavy; so they took a stone and put it under him, and 'Aharon and Hur held up his hands, one on one side and one on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
13: So Yehoshua weakened Amalek and his people with the mouth of the sword.
14: YHWH said to Moses, "Write this as a memorial in the scroll, and set it in the ears of Yehoshua; for I will utterly efface the memorial of Amalek from under heaven.
15: And Moses built an altar and called its name, YHWH-Nissi (“YHWH is my banner”),
16: For he said, "For a hand on the throne (banner?) of YH – that YHWH will have war with Amalek from generation to generation."

These examples from Exodus merely show God being called man of war (i.e. a warrior, one who knows how to fight and defeat the enemy) and tells of Him “fighting for” Israel. I can’t see how it would to the headline “Belligerence and Ruthlessness of Jehovah”. The Exodus was a time when God advanced on behalf of Israel for conquest - it is therefore appropriate that this hymn of praise to Him extolled that virtue and practice, calling Him a warrior, a “man of war”.

Plus, in both of these situations, the thread runs the same: some group attacks Israel, and God protects them through Moses - often by supernatural means. Now is protecting somebody from imminent harm and mortal peril being “ruthless”?
 
patrick457 said:
Okaaay, now let’s do something fun (at least, what I consider to be fun, anyway). Since there is a rule that “context is everything”, let’s “rationalize” these passages, shall we?

Genesis 35:1-6:

1: Then Elohim said to Jacob, “Arise, go up to Beith-El and dwell there. Make an altar there to 'El who appeared to you you when you fled from the face of Esau your brother.”
2: And Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Take away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and purify yourselves, and change your clothes!
3: Let us arise and let us go up to Beith-El, and I will make an altar there to 'El, who answered me in my day of distress and has been with me in the way which I went.”
4: So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods which were in their hand and the rings that were in their ears. Jacob buried them under the terebinth that was near Shekem.
5: And they journeyed; and the terror of Elohim was upon the cities which were round about them, and they did not pursue the sons of Jacob.
6: And Jacob came to Luz which is in the land of Canaan – that is, Beith-El – he and all the people who were with him.

The phrase “terror of Elohim” (Khitta Elohim; khitta is an hapax legomenon) can be rendered in three main ways:
(1) A fear of God (objective genitive; God is the object of their fear).
(2) “Fear from God,” that is, fear which God placed in them.
(3) Elohim is here used as a superlative here, referring to “tremendous fear”.

Note that this passage happens just after two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, ravaged and plundered Shekem in revenge for their sister Dinah (Genesis 34). So, in one sense, it would be natural for neighboring areas to fear Jacob, his party, or their God (after all, no one wants their lives taken and their riches plundered in retaliation)!

Ex. 14:10-28 (in full)

10: When Pharaoh drew near, the sons of Israel lifted up their eyes; and behold, the Mitzrim (Egyptians) were marching after them, and they feared greatly. The sons of Israel cried out to YHWH,
11: and they said to Moses, “Is it because there are no graves in Mitzraim that you have taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you dealt with us so - to bring us up out of Mitzraim?
12: Is not this the word that we spoke to you in Mitzraim, saying, ‘Let us alone that we may serve the Mitzri?’ because it is better for us to serve the Mitzrim than to die in the wilderness!”
13: And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand firm and see the salvation of YHWH that He will do for you today; for the Mitzrim that you see today, you will no longer see again, for ever.
14: YHWH will make war for you, and you can be still.”
15: YHWH said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Speak to the sons of Israel that they might journey.”
16: And you - lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, so that the sons of Israel may go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.
17: And me - I am about to harden the hearts of the Mitzrim and they shall follow them, and I will be honored over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.
18: And Mitzraim will know I am YHWH when I have gained my honor over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."
19: The angel of Elohim, who was going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the column of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.
20: It came between the camp of Mitzraim and the camp of Israel; and it was the cloud and the darkness, and it gave light by night so that one camp did not come near the other all night.
21: Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and YHWH drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and made the sea into dry ground, and the water was split.
22: And the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on dry ground, and the waters were for them a wall on their right hand and on their left.
23: And the Mitzrim pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea - all the horses of Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24: Now it came to pass, that in the morning watch YHWH looked down on the camp of Mitzrim through the column of fire and cloud, and He threw the camp of Mitzrim into confusion.
25: And He bound the wheels of their chariots that they drove them with difficulty; and the Mitzri said, "Let’s flee from Israel, for YHWH is fighting for them against Mitzraim!"
26:** And YHWH said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may come back on the Mitzrim, on their chariots, and on their horsemen!**”
27: So Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to to its perennial state at the turning of the morning. Now the Mitzrim were fleeing towards it, and YHWH shook off the Mitzrim in the midst of the sea.
28: The water returned and covered the chariots and the horsemen and all the army of Pharaoh was coming after them into the sea - not so much as one remained among them!
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Forget it Patrick- logic and interpretation mean nothing to this person. He/she wants to be angry-so let them be angry.Spiting invective seems to make them happy-i wonder why.I wonder at people who get angry at something that could be hyberbole and which archaeologists have great doubts about-especially the Joshua stories.My take is if the Israelites went around destroying everybody out around the time of Joshua-then who were those guys Saul and David fought? Why was paganism always a thorn in the side of the Hebrews if they were wiped out so efficiently by Israel?.Many nations named in the Bible as enemies and nations that Israel fought were destroyed - but not by Israel. Other nations invaded and completely wiped them off the face of the earth.
 
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patrick457:
Plus, in both of these situations, the thread runs the same: some group attacks Israel, and God protects them through Moses - often by supernatural means. Now is protecting somebody from imminent harm and mortal peril being “ruthless”?
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Aaaahh! You make it sound Jehovah so cute! Like jehovah was a kind of Superhero protector. There goes Super Jehovah to the rescue.

It will be cool if he was only smiting to protect the people he cared for. I will be Ok with that (as long as he don’t freaking Kill the innocent with the guilty from those countries, you know, like babies, children’s, and the like).

The problem is that Jehovah’s favorite target for Smiting are His own people, the very people He said that HE loves. His chosen People are usually the target for the ruthlessness and cruelty of Jehovah!

Lets see:

The Moab woman invite the israelites to partake in feasts held for local gods, especially Baal, and during this ritual jehovah returns from an excursion to discover this outside worship. Now picture this Patrick: this is like the husband coming home and finding the milkman in bed with his wife! Needless to say, Jehovah goes through the roof. there will be hell to pay! Worshiping some other god behind ol’Jehova’s back just was not kosher!

Jehovah tells Moses to:
“Take all the leaders of the people (the ring leaders) and impale them for Jehovah here in the sun; then the burning anger of Jehovah will turn away from Israel”
Numbers 25:4

So jehovah not only wanted the ringleaders who had turned his people to Baal dead, he wanted them to suffer, and to suffer in the most unspeakable, detestable manner imaginable. Impaling was the most torturous death known, with the victim’s full weight being fixed through the Anus upon a sharp wooden stake, piercing up through the inner organs and sometimes out the mouth. Not only was the agony more terrible than you could ever imagine, victims would often not die for 8 hours or even more!

It seams, however that this orders were not carried out completely, because Jehovah’s anger was turned into joy because of a distraction. The israelites were wailing over this verdict at the Tent of meeting when an israeli man brought a Midianite woman (a Baal worshiper) over to his companions in sight of Moses and the entire distraught community. They headed for a chamber whereby the alert Phineas, grandson of the priest Aaron, followed them inside and fatally impaled both of them.

Jehovah forgot his anger and became overjoyed with these gruesome murders. offering Phineas and his descendants the priesthood from that moment on. Finally some of Jehovah was rubbing off on his people! He was thrilled! Thrilled enough to go from complete blind rage, into total elation! a “mood swing” commonly found in victims of mental illness. If you study history, you will find that Hitler and Stalin both experienced such mood swings. But at least in Jehovah’s case it was enough to save many from a cruel and torturous death.

On this way when all this incredible bloody horror and mayhem commanded by our merciful God was finished, then His anger was placated but not before he decided that he want more people dead. 24,000 dead people later, God anger was now totally placated! (for now!) How freaking Merciful! Hey but something good came out of it! At least they died instantly from the plague and not from a slow and torturous death as impalement as he originally commanded! Wow! God really is Merciful! At east some mercy came out of this!
 
Now, let us not get sidetrack Here patrick457. Lets examine other merciful acts of Ol’Jolly Jehovah in the Old testament and see how Merciful and kind He is with HIS OWN FREAKING PEOPLE!!!

Aaron was the chief of Jehovah’s household. (head slave). He and his sons were in charge of cooking for the Lord, among other things. Nadab and Abihu, were Jehovah’s first murder victims after the israelites came out of egypt. Jehovah murdered Aaron two sons on the day that Jehovah’s tent was being set up!

There was a big celebration occurring and the two sons attempted to please Jehovah by offering burnt incense. Apparently, Jehovah did not like that particular fragrance and, since he had not requested this well-meaning act, killed them both with a “consuming fire” In other words, the All Good and Merciful Jehovah God Barbecue them in an instant! Nice!! Read Leviticus 10:1-2 if you don’t believe this!

This, of course put a damper on the celebration, to say the least. Moses was left to do the dirty work by trying to explain to the grieving Aaron why such an atrocity happened.

You see what I am trying to tell you Patrick457? Is not the concept of God killing people that disturbs me, but the cruelty that He displays even to “His Own People”. If He is Loving Father he is at lest suppose to manifest some Patience, Mercy and Loving Kindness to at least His own People! But in this case, as in many other cases in the scriptures, His own people are his favorite target to display His own brand of Cruelty! What Jehovah display here in this passage (to us and to his people) is how freaking terrifying, vicious, short fused, ill tempered God they are dealing with! Just pure Vicious! I rather serve Saddam Husein anytime than Jehovah! I rather be at the mercy of Hiter or Stalin than being at the mercy of this Jehovah.

Anyway, as I said before, Moses was left to do the dirty work by trying to explain to the grieving Aaron why such an atrocity happened. He does so, from the Merciful Jehovah’s perspective, by saying:

“Through those near me I show myself holy, and assert my authority before the people”
Leviticus 10:3

Holy? Holy?? Excuse me, but no god becomes holy by murdering people! At least none that I worship.

Poor Aaron however who just watched his two sons roast to death, kept his mouth shut - Probably assuming rightly, that he would be next is he objected!

A fine way to greet a grieving family. Talk about kicking someone when they are down!

Then after this thy now spend 11 months at Mt. Sinai, training for warfare. Once done they set out, following the “cloud”. After 3 solid days of marching the people complained, so jehovah burnt one end of the camp with his “fire” but we are not told how many were killed! Same way he murdered the 2 sons of Aaron! I think you are starting to get the idea by now!

Then at a place called Kibroth-Hattavah the people had little food, except for a bread-like substance called Manna, so complained of hunger, weakness, and malnutrition. Moses went to Jehovah on behalf of the people and complained to him once again. They wanted meat and nourishment, something nutritious. Moses also complained to the Lord about the heavy burden he had trying to keep all these people happy. It was a big job for one man, and Moses did not want to take the blame for these types of shortcomings, especially if they should continue. The israelites were being mistreated by Jehovah and wanted some changes.

The Lord gave Moses his answer by saying:
Gather Me seventy of Israel’s elders of whom you have experience as elders and officers of the people, and bring them to the Tent of Meeting and let them take their place with you. I will come down and speak with you, and I will draw upon the spirit that is on you and put it on them; they shall share the burden of the people with you, and you shall not bear it alone. And say to the people: “Be ready tomorrow and you shall eat meat, for you have kept whining before the Lord and saying, If only we had meat to eat! Indeed, we were better off in Egypt!”

The Lord will give you meat and you shall eat. You shall not eat not one day, not two, not even five or twenty, but a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you. For you have rejected the Lord who is among you, by whining to Him and saying, “Oh, why did we ever leave Egypt?”
Numbers 11:16-20, Jewish Torah

Jehovah did in fact come down and “blessed the people with enough quail to make them sick of eating them. But jehovah could not wait for the people to tire and grow sick of eating the quail! With the meat “still between their teeth”, the Lord struck the people down with a severe plague! Many died! An exact number is not recorded but the place was thereafter named Kibroth-Hattavah, meaning “the graves of craving”. These poor people died merely for the sin of being hungry. Jehovah had promised them a land flowing with abundance of Milk and Honey, but when they complained of being malnourished from eating nothing but freaking “Manna”, he got pissed off and killed a bunch of them. If Jehovah was the infinite , loving God that we’re supposed to accept, he should have no problem supplying his people with decent food and water.

But a pattern was beginning here. Jehovah would constantly create situations like this whereby people would complain or break a “rule”, just so he could punish them. It was his favorite game from then on! He reveled in it!
 
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