SPLIT: Can one be both Catholic and Protestant?

[cameron_157]

Yes, i don’t deny that Jesus references practices but relationships where the key element in everything he tought/adviced. The TC gave a good example with what Jesus said to the prostitute and Christians should think about the order of words because in these days every area thinks that you will only be forgiven/salvation when you sin no more and sinning no more is by following our rules.

Let me ask you something. You have one catholic kid who grew up and did all these sacraments but only because this how he was raised. He has no feelings in it, not as much care, and is just robotic to it. Repeating the same our fathers with random stuff being imagined in his head. But you have a protestant who was not raised in this tradition, when he prays he fully means it. When he sings, he sings loud and full of joy, and when he is outside of the church, he brings and shares the goodness of God he feels to everyone around him. Tell me, who is being more of a servant to God, the catholic boy who is participating on the rules of the church like a robot (no desire just out of requirement) during Sundays or the protestant who actually gives his full span of attention to God? What do you think will matter more to God, the rules followed or the heart that is given? After thinking of this you will agree that the TC is right, relationships matter more. Not only was it the major of jesus’ teachings but because we are creations with a soul and not robot creations. What you do at church doesn’t define Christian living, it’s what you project from it.

 

[cameron_157]

It’s great that you both respect each other’s religions and have found similarities. But respecting another person’s religion does not mean you’re actually a part of it. I respect a lot of Eastern Orthodox teachings and agree with them on quite a bit. I agree a lot with Lutheran teachings. But I am not a “Catholic-Lutheran” I’m Catholic.

You’re both setting up straw men and knocking them down. I’m not judging you. I’m saying that Protestants can’t be Catholic. It’s a matter of definition, not judgment

Brother, Protestantism and Catholicism are not different religions. Maybe if you would stop seeing them as different religions than you would realize that it is possible for a person to consider themselves both. Both means that they see equality with the two as there should be.

 

[C_Del86]

When i say rules i mean traditional church rules/laws, Practices, Worship principles. You are confusing that with SOCIAL rules as seen in this. Social Rules are obviously needed to make the relationship an HONEST one.

Everything that makes success in this world is RELATIONSHIPS. That is the secret success in Business, family, marriage, and even Christian-Church life. You are not following a system but you are giving your actual being into it, positively.

If you study the ministry of Jesus, ask yourself, why didn’t he use the laws of Moses as part of his influence? I already gave the biggest proof to back up my argument. When Jesus was asked, what are the important commandments of the law? Did Jesus give worship/practice related answers? So it’s rather odd that this was strayed away and yet some are still arguing that the present church laws are of great necessity to a christian. It is great to practice and do the traditions made by the church, but please be open minded and know that is only YOUR specific way of honoring, other people have different ways of honoring God and no matter what/how they do it, as long as they are acknowledging the divinity of christ and following the important commandments of God --love him and your neighbors-- then there is nothing wrong with his/her church.

 

[C_Del86]

Jesus also said, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)

Can you quote what those commandments where, i believe it’s in the verse after that.

Well, can you be a follower of Karl Marx and Ludwig von Mises at the same time?

Nope, because they are two different people. You can’t serve two masters, right? Good thing that Protestant and Catholic Churches have the same master.

I was under the impression you thought Catholicism was all about following rules?

And what about the statements of Jesus pertaining to baptism in Matthew 28:19 and communion in John 6:48-58?

Yes those are rules that are done in both Catholic and Protestant churches, but as i have been trying to remind you all, it’s relationships that matter most to God not rules.

Do you have any sources for this claim?

Try debating with Atheists who were former christians.

 

[C_Del86]

Catholic and Protestant theology conflict in serious ways. How can you believe in two contradictory things at the same time?

I can’t disagree, the reason why i embraced Catholicism was because the majority of catholics i knew had better theology. Protestants on the other hand took the bible too literally. But at the same sense, both sides have their equal wrongs. I’ve seen catholic parades of third world countries and it is idolatry like. A bunch of statues (no Jesus statues) being marched for miles with dozens of roses while people put their entire faith in that image. That is 3rd world -bad theology- Catholicism. They only contradict each other because both sides have been corrupted by narcissism, both sides being raised to believe that anyone out side their church is not part of the heard and is just wrong, unchristian. So the reason why i call myself protestant/catholic is because i don’t see a right/wrong church because it is still all under the same God. Saying and forcing that there are different sides and you can only chose one makes our God to be false in the eyes of a non-christian. When he is the right one. You don’t need to be concerned of theologies involving Saints, other protestant philosophies because the only important theology is that God exist, and that he is Trinity.

Where is this in the Bible?

Read the part where Jesus was asked on what were the important commandments. The later part of your post already shows “this part” in the bible.

But all relationships, as another poster mentioned, have rules–otherwise they’d fall apart. Can I cuss my best friend out or give his mom a black eye without expecting some kind of indignant response on his part?

Yes, in order for a relationship to be honest, there are social/conscious effecting rules. Regardless, i never said rules where inexistent, i’m saying that relationships matter more than rules. Just re-read your own example, it’s all involving another person it’s relationship based than it is on rules.

What “rules” of the Catholic and Protestant churches do you have in mind?

The “rules” such as “you should/shouldn’t pray to saints”, “you should believe/shouldn’t believe in the immaculate conception”, you shouldn’t confess/should confess your sins to a priest… “if you do these things/don’t do these things, then you are rejecting the church/God… it is a sin…”

Also, the Catholic Church teaches that those visibly outside of that communion can be saved. Most Protestants say that all true believers in Christ will be saved.

Really? You had a guy over here say “there is no salvation outside the mother church”, and the rest of you are arguing that rules matter more. I can’t be both because both have different rules/theology. Apparently, Worshiping and Growth in the same God matters less than a church or it can only be done in one church?

What teachings of Christ am I ignorant of? Please cite chapter and verse.

The teachings of christ involving relationships not rules. I already gave verses, please be nice enough to actually read my post instead of skimming it or hitting the reply first.

Your lack of charity (i.e., making an accusation without backing it up) is disappointing.

I actually backed it up very well, and sadly you guys are unintentionally saying that the Church is the bigger master than God. If you deny that is what you are imposing, then you would not see any absurdity in someone who is opened to both sides. The reason why it doesn’t make sense to you because you think only follow one church regardless if the church has the same master.

Sure… how does that prove that all Church authority was made null and void? Jesus was criticizing the bad behaviour of the Pharisees

Actually, Jesus would attack the Pharisees for not following their own “rules” properly. From Matthew chapter twenty-three:

[4] “They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.
[5] They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
[6] and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues,
[7] and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.”

Why did you start at 4 and not at verse 2?

1. “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
   3.** So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.** But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Now read the whole chapter and see what their hypocrisy was,it was all RELATIONSHIP based. They where religious people, who lived their lives of the rules to the point of conceit. That whole chapter shows that. They did the laws, followed the laws and to them their ways/rules had to be imitated and if it was not they would treat the person as an outcast.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘ Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold* or the temple** that sanctified the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19 You blind men, which is [m]more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering?

Re-read 16-20 very carefully, Jesus makes it clear that there is no organized systematics that matters more than what is in the heart. What matters more in a church, The God and the heart/love given to him, or the way the church orders to worship?

23 “ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and [v]cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness ← Relationship oriented.

Why did God hand down the Mosaic law in the first place?

During the time of Moses, the Jews where not yet a dominant nation so civil to religious laws where made to assure that the Jews would build rightfully into a nation. It doesn’t matter why they where handed down anyway because the only important commandments, as Jesus said was to love God and others.

Of course, but she had to repent in order to be forgiven.

She was forgiven first before being given something to follow.

“Child, does anyone here still condemn you”. She replied, No lord. “Neither do i, you are forgiven, therefore sin no more”. Following a rule was not given before the forgiveness (the relationship), forgiveness is part of relationships and that is an additional event where Jesus shows that a relationship matters more than organized-doctrinated worship rules.

They both say that contrite penitants will be forgiven (though Catholics add that confession is vital for serious sins–see John 20:19-23).

Great, but in the end relationships still matter more. Read Camron’s example, a person can do all of that all due to obligation but have little to no care inside their head (refer to Matt 23:16-20), the confession and all that becomes redundant.

What do you make of there being only one form of liturgy employed in heaven as depicted in the book of Revelation?

Don’t take revelations to literally or think that is one specific sect of a religion.

Brother, don’t take my posts as of any offense. Honestly, i’ve debated with more Protestants than i have with Catholics because growing up as one, i found these same arguments “you should go to our church… because this church… yadda”, some are that ignorant to think that Catholics are not christian. Some ask, “are you catholic or are you christian”… that question really eats me up. Isn’t it sad that the one religion with the true God doesn’t even know their own religion. Therefore, do not be like them. Because in the end, God doesn’t take your worshiping styles, dogmatic beliefs, your theology, or your churches as a big factor over your spirtuality and goodness towards him, yourself, and others. There you can be both, because one church isn’t more right than the other. Because in the end, the rules are inferior to the persons relationship with God. As Jesus said to the prostitute, it is the relationship (forgiveness) before the rules not the rules before the relationship.*

 

[jam070406]

Can you quote what those commandments where, i believe it’s in the verse after that.

Nope, because they are two different people. You can’t serve two masters, right? Good thing that Protestant and Catholic Churches have the same master.

Yes those are rules that are done in both Catholic and Protestant churches, but as i have been trying to remind you all, it’s relationships that matter most to God not rules.

Try debating with Atheists who were former christians.

We come into relationship with God by the working of the Holy Spirit through Baptism and Confirmation. We are transfigured through turning away from sin and cooperating with grace. The greatest of which is receiving our Lord’s body and blood in the Eucharist.
If we fall we can receive absolution from sin through the sacrament of confession. These are not “rules” in the sense that you are attempting to make them. They are gifts. They are life giving means of grace that Jesus gave to humanity through the Church that has the authority, by Him, to distill these graces. Other ecclesiastical Protestant communities not only lack the authority, they reject these gifts. Particularly the Eucharist. Loving God and neighbor and receiving the sacraments are not mutually exclusive. It’s not either/or.
That’s what you need to realize and admit that you are in error about.
Again, we must take Scripture as a whole. Not cherry pick quotes to fit your argument. Truth is not relative and the Apostles warned of individual interpretation that is not inline with the mind of the Church.

 

[C_Del86]

We come into relationship with God by the working of the Holy Spirit through Baptism and Confirmation. We are transfigured through turning away from sin and cooperating with grace. The greatest of which is receiving our Lord’s body and blood in the Eucharist.
If we fall we can receive absolution from sin through the sacrament of confession. These are not “rules” in the sense that you are attempting to make them. They are gifts. They are life giving means of grace that Jesus gave to humanity through the Church that has the authority, by Him, to distill these graces. Other ecclesiastical Protestant communities not only lack the authority, they reject these gifts. Particularly the Eucharist. Loving God and neighbor and receiving the sacraments are not mutually exclusive. It’s not either/or.
That’s what you need to realize and admit that you are in error about.
Again, we must take Scripture as a whole. Not cherry pick quotes to fit your argument. Truth is not relative and the Apostles warned of individual interpretation that is not inline with the mind of the Church.

Those are rules, seeing these as gifts is your own point of view, you are not wrong by that because you have a relationship along with it, your own way of relationship to God is what matters and if you see these practices and traditions as part of your relationship, then you have every right to think so. HOWEVER, just because one christian church does not give a big factor to these religious codes does not mean they are the inferior/invalid faith. They just do not see the same qualities or necessities in those things in their growth to God. So even if they do not do these Catholic things, as long as what they do builds them into a relationship with God, than they are not wrong themselves. Do you think Messianic Jews do these sacraments or confessions to priests too? No. Yet, the Messianic Church is still another house of God, a much interesting one because these Jews acknowledge Jesus and the trinity and defend that it is true.

I’ve known others who went into baptism and did all that growing up and yet ended up as horrible people. And i’m not cherry picking quotes, i’ve even extended the verses given to me and in an extended format it clarifies my argument that Relationship > Rules. So you can’t say i cherry picked.

 

[Michael_Francis]

*** This thread was split from off topic posts in the thread the Christian Dogma on Satan.**

Please remain on topic here as per the Forum Rules.*

 

[benjammin]

Actually, you can be. One parent could be Protestant and the other can be a catholic, and they can each respect each others different views by allowing to alternate sundays between protestant church to catholic mass. Catholic and Protestantism isn’t a different religion, there is no reason why one person can believe in both philosophies (not entirely both philosophies) thinking there can be only one side of the fense is simply close minded,.

How does this work exactly. I come from a situation like you describe (protestant lutheran mother and a Catholic father, and I consider myself Catholic. We did the whole switch churches for a while but it didn’t work out and my mom felt it was better to raise us Catholic since it was part of the marriage requirement. Anyway, I’m sure there are people who do this all the time, but they are not Catholic, i’m sorry. If your’e only going to be half catholic, either step up and go to mass only or leave. That being said I hope you step up. I’ve seen too many people who consider themselves both and end up falling away, much like a friend of mine who joined cru in college and still considers herself catholic, unfortunately she’s fallen so far it will take a lot to bring her back

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Brother, Protestantism and Catholicism are not different religions. Maybe if you would stop seeing them as different religions than you would realize that it is possible for a person to consider themselves both. Both means that they see equality with the two as there should be.

Ummmm…yes, they are.

Seriously, it’s just a definition. They’re two DIFFERENT sects of Christianity. You can’t be both.

We’re both Christians, but you’re a Protestant and I’m a Catholic. Why do you insist on changing the definition of these two words?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Yes.

You guys are setting up and knocking down straw men. I haven’t condemned Protestants on this thread even once. I’ve never claimed Catholics superior. I’ve never said we’re not both Christians.

I said Catholics are not Protestants. That’s it. Why is it such a big problem to realize that there’s a difference between a Catholic and a Protestant? It’s a simple matter of definition.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Okay. Let’s get matters straight here. Here is the definition of “Protestant”:

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Protestant

noun

a member or follower of any of the Western Christian Churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church in accordance with the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran Churches.

It’s settled. A Protestant, by definition, cannot be a Catholic.

[EDIT: Oxford is considered to be the most definitive dictionary. But just in case, here are a few more definitions of Protestant:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/protestant

1
capitalized a : any of a group of German princes and cities presenting a defense of freedom of conscience against an edict of the Diet of Spires in 1529 intended to suppress the Lutheran movement b : a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth;** broadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church **

thefreedictionary.com/Protestantism

Protestantism ˈprɒtɪstənˌtɪzəm]
n

1. (Christianity / Protestantism) the religion or religious system of any of the Churches of Western Christendom that are separated from the Roman Catholic Church ]

 

[Trebor135]

History books.

Do you have any in particular to recommend?

You don’t need an ancient manuscript,

I’ll clarify that point about the ancient manuscript. What I meant was this: if I was handling such a fragile item and you told me there was only one specific way to do so, would it be right for me to say that you were acting conceited?

the book of Acts is good enough

Does the book of Acts state that, two thousand years in the future, members of an online message board would have to derive from its pages the true doctrine and practice of doing church because no one else had gotten it right in all the years before?

but if you want outside sources then read a bunch of history books.

Again, which ones?

Catholicism did not exist until Christianity was adopted by rome.

I’m confused by this statement. How do you distinguish between “Christianity” and “Catholicism”? What changes marked the transition between the two?

So if only one church is supposed to be the right one, then both Catholicism and Protestantism should be out of the water

Actually, I agree. (I’m becoming an Eastern Orthodox inquirer.)

because the Apostles worshiped like Jews did.

For a few decades or less–they were thrown out of the synagogue at some point, if I’m not mistaken. Plus, given that Christians were under persecution for centuries, it seems reasonable to also look at how they worshipped when they could conduct their spiritual lives in full freedom. Apart from the reign of Julian the Apostate, anti-Christian persecution stopped during the fourth century after 313 A.D., and it’s from that century that we get the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great, which are still used today in the Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches.

So Messianic Judaism should be the right church due to them being identical to how christianity was during the beginning.

Messianic Judaism is Evangelical Protestant in flavour though, and early Christianity wasn’t.

But, there is not only one right way of practice. Christianity is about relationships not religious rules.

You replied to my other posts where I got into this issue in more depth, so I won’t comment about it in this particular message.

 

[johnnyjones]

Shocking in itself is that one could think they could be both. One (Protestant), protests the the teachings of the other as evidenced by it’s name alone, PROTEST----TANT.

 

[Trebor135]

Can you quote what those commandments where, i believe it’s in the verse after that.

Sure:

[18] He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
[19] Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
[20] The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?”
[21] Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
[22] When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
[23] And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
[24] Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

I quoted Christ’s statement to follow the commandments in verse 17 to show that he brought more than a hippy-style message of “love God and neighbour”. The Ten Commandments are very serious moral innjunctions.

Nope, because they are two different people. You can’t serve two masters, right? Good thing that Protestant and Catholic Churches have the same master.

In one sense, you’re correct. But in another, they don’t have the same master–Protestants “serve” Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli by adhering to their teachings, while Catholics “serve” the pope and the bishops in communion with him by following their doctrines.

Yes those are rules that are done in both Catholic and Protestant churches, but as i have been trying to remind you all, it’s relationships that matter most to God not rules.

It’s both, as Christ’s words clearly indicate. No need to set up a false dichotomy here.

Try debating with Atheists who were former christians.

Those I’ve read or dealt with seem to leave for reasons as varied as disliking Catholic sexual ethics to finding the “problem of evil” persuasive. But you may be right that some Christians become atheists on account of Catholic or Protestant claims to offering the faith of Christ full and complete.

 

[Trebor135]

I can’t disagree, the reason why i embraced Catholicism was because the majority of catholics i knew had better theology.

What’s “good” theology?

Protestants on the other hand took the bible too literally.

How so?

But at the same sense, both sides have their equal wrongs.

No. Catholicism doesn’t inspire anti-intellectualism like some forms of Protestantism do.

I’ve seen catholic parades of third world countries and it is idolatry like.

Were you there to interview those involved? How do you know that there was any idolatry going on?

A bunch of statues (no Jesus statues) being marched for miles with dozens of roses while people put their entire faith in that image.

Again, how do you know that people were putting “their entire faith” in those statues? It’s an uncharitable assumption.

That is 3rd world -bad theology- Catholicism.

This doesn’t say anything about whether Catholicism is true or not. The pope and bishops wouldn’t approve of any idolatry going on.

They only contradict each other because both sides have been corrupted by narcissism, both sides being raised to believe that anyone out side their church is not part of the heard and is just wrong, unchristian.

No. They don’t consider each other to be part of their communion because they disagree on fundamental issues, such as whether a visible church exists.

So the reason why i call myself protestant/catholic is because i don’t see a right/wrong church because it is still all under the same God.

But not under the same “earthly masters”. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli on the one hand and the pope and bishops on the other haven’t taught and don’t teach the same things.

Saying and forcing that there are different sides and you can only chose one makes our God to be false in the eyes of a non-christian.

Actually, I would suggest that all the divisions in Christianity make the faith look preposterous in the eyes of non-Christians. Earlier this year I met a girl who pointed to all the disagreement she saw among Christians of the same and varying confessions to try to justify her apostasy to Islam from nominal Catholic Christianity.

When he is the right one. You don’t need to be concerned of theologies involving Saints, other protestant philosophies because the only important theology is that God exist, and that he is Trinity.

Truth seems to have no part to play here, though. What if asking the intercession of the saints is true or salvation by faith alone false?

Continued in next post.

 

[Trebor135]

Read the part where Jesus was asked on what were the important commandments. The later part of your post already shows “this part” in the bible.

You’ve set up a false dichotomy between “religious growth” and “spiritual growth” when the two can and should go hand in hand.

Yes, in order for a relationship to be honest, there are social/conscious effecting rules. Regardless, i never said rules where inexistent, i’m saying that relationships matter more than rules. Just re-read your own example, it’s all involving another person it’s relationship based than it is on rules.

But participating in the sacraments and attending the sacrificial Liturgy strengthen that relationship immensely, which is why Christ instituted them.

The “rules” such as “you should/shouldn’t pray to saints”, “you should believe/shouldn’t believe in the immaculate conception”, you shouldn’t confess/should confess your sins to a priest… “if you do these things/don’t do these things, then you are rejecting the church/God… it is a sin…”

If Christ wishes for us to believe in some or all of these things, why not take his word for it?

Really?

Yes. You can read it in the Catholic Catechism.

You had a guy over here say “there is no salvation outside the mother church”, and the rest of you are arguing that rules matter more.

I’ll allow them to address your concerns.

I can’t be both because both have different rules/theology. Apparently, Worshiping and Growth in the same God matters less than a church or it can only be done in one church?

What we’re saying is that claiming to be two contradictory things at the same time is inconsistent and illogical. That’s all.

The teachings of christ involving relationships not rules. I already gave verses, please be nice enough to actually read my post instead of skimming it or hitting the reply first.

I simply disagree that verses you offer necessarily say what you argue they say.

I actually backed it up very well, and sadly you guys are unintentionally saying that the Church is the bigger master than God. If you deny that is what you are imposing, then you would not see any absurdity in someone who is opened to both sides. The reason why it doesn’t make sense to you because you think only follow one church regardless if the church has the same master.

We simply believe in consistency. If the Church is the body of Christ, and the body of Christ can’t be divided, one Christian group over another has to be the real deal–otherwise God has failed to keep his promises regarding the Church.

Continued in next post.

 

[Trebor135]

See page #4, posts #59-60, for previous parts of this response.

Why did you start at 4 and not at verse 2?

I wanted to focus on the part that was most relevant to the point I was making.

1. “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
   3.** So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.** But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

It’s odd that you cite this passage, because it shows how Jesus wasn’t against religious authority being followed, even hypocritical religious authority.

Now read the whole chapter and see what their hypocrisy was,it was all RELATIONSHIP based. They where religious people, who lived their lives of the rules to the point of conceit. That whole chapter shows that. They did the laws, followed the laws and to them their ways/rules had to be imitated and if it was not they would treat the person as an outcast.

Are you actually claiming that all the people here have no relationship with God and you’re the only one that does? No greater conceit have I encountered in some time.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘ Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold* or the temple*** that sanctified the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19 You blind men, which is [m]more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering?

Re-read 16-20 very carefully, Jesus makes it clear that there is no organized systematics that matters more than what is in the heart. What matters more in a church, The God and the heart/love given to him, or the way the church orders to worship?

23 “ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and [v]cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness ← Relationship oriented.

He appears to have thought that both were pretty important. Otherwise he wouldn’t have instructed his audience to follow the teachings, or “rules”, of the Pharisees…

Plus, how are the sacraments or a particular form of liturgy prescribed by Catholicism akin to the laws handed down by the Pharisees, especially since Christ instituted them?

During the time of Moses, the Jews where not yet a dominant nation so civil to religious laws where made to assure that the Jews would build rightfully into a nation. It doesn’t matter why they where handed down anyway because the only important commandments, as Jesus said was to love God and others.

The reasons they were handed down are important because it doesn’t make sense to blame the Pharisees for wanting to follow the Mosaic laws yet not fault God for giving them in the first place.

She was forgiven first before being given something to follow.

“Child, does anyone here still condemn you”. She replied, No lord. “Neither do i, you are forgiven, therefore sin no more”. Following a rule was not given before the forgiveness (the relationship), forgiveness is part of relationships and that is an additional event where Jesus shows that a relationship matters more than organized-doctrinated worship rules.

Would Christ have forgiven her if she didn’t feel contrition for her actions?

Great, but in the end relationships still matter more. Read Camron’s example, a person can do all of that all due to obligation but have little to no care inside their head (refer to Matt 23:16-20), the confession and all that becomes redundant.

Sure. But Christ participated fully in the Jewish “system” of his day in a sincere manner without condemning everything about what he was believing and practicing. Because he was God incarnate, Jesus could modify and revoke one or another part of the Mosaic law as he saw fit.

Don’t take revelations to literally or think that is one specific sect of a religion.

Why not? What do you think Revelations chapter four-five and seven-eight mean?

Brother, don’t take my posts as of any offense. Honestly, i’ve debated with more Protestants than i have with Catholics because growing up as one, i found these same arguments “you should go to our church… because this church… yadda”, some are that ignorant to think that Catholics are not christian. Some ask, “are you catholic or are you christian”… that question really eats me up.

I appreciate your desire for both parties to be fair and charitable towards one another.

Isn’t it sad that the one religion with the true God doesn’t even know their own religion.

Yes, lack of good teaching is a big problem.

Therefore, do not be like them.

I don’t deny that Catholics and Protestants are Christian.

Because in the end, God doesn’t take your worshiping styles, dogmatic beliefs, your theology, or your churches as a big factor over your spirtuality and goodness towards him, yourself, and others. There you can be both, because one church isn’t more right than the other. Because in the end, the rules are inferior to the persons relationship with God. As Jesus said to the prostitute, it is the relationship (forgiveness) before the rules not the rules before the relationship.

One thing preceding another doesn’t mean that the former trumps the latter. To drive a car one must have both tires in good shape and gas in the tank.

 

[livingwordunity]

It’s impossible to be for and against a belief at the same time. Protestantism contains the word “protest” because the first Protestants protested against the Catholic Church. Every Protestant to this day has strong objections to one or more doctrines of the Catholic Church. If they would accept all of the teachings of the Magisterium, as is required to be Catholic, they would cease to be Protestant. I converted to the Catholic faith as an adult. But I was never a Protestant since I never objected to any Catholic doctrine in my pre-Catholic life.

 

[benjohnson]

. Protestantism contains the word “protest” because the first Protestants protested against the Catholic Church.

Not quite… The ‘protesters’ were protesting the decision of Charles V at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. The name was considered derogatory - being a good bit of propaganda, the name stuck

From dictionary.reference.com/browse/protestant : (originally) any of the German princes who protested against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which had denounced the Reformation.