SPLIT: Can't believe that impotent couples can't marry.

[MJJean]

That can’t possibly be true, otherwise a man and a woman who can’t have sex would be allowed to marry because they have the option to adopt. They can still raise a family, they just can’t do it through the Church.

I believe the idea is that without the ability to have sexual intercourse the relationship between the couple is more or less a friendship. Marriage requires sexual intercourse to unite the couple in a way friendship simply cannot. Fertility isn’t required for that special unity. Physical ability, however, is required.

 

[MJJean]

I guess this doesn’t make sense to me either. If a couple is chaste until marriage, which is proper, how will they know if they can’t consummate the marriage until the wedding night…?

There are quite a few medical conditions that can be diagnosed without the person attempting to have sex.

For example, males become erect in their sleep and partially erect at random times so that the blood vessels remain operational. If that’s not happening it’s a pretty good indicator of a potential problem achieving intercourse.

 

[Vico]

[edited]

The Church says sexual ability is required for marriage, but fertility is not. Plain and simple.

Do you believe that an impotent couple (say a one is quadriplegic) cannot have a loving lifetime bond? Do you believe that such a couple could not be loving parents to adopted children? I don’t, but the Church does.

This is one of the doctrines that caused me to leave the Church. In my heart of hearts, I believe this is not what God intended. The bottom line then becomes that I don’t believe something that the Church teaches, but that same Church says that it is impossible for them to teach doctrinal error. At this point, I don’t see myself changing my mind ( I really have studied this a lot) and I know that the church will not change.

Impotence is inability to consummate the marriage by which the couple becomes one flesh, therefore no marriage can be established. In the absence of fertility there is still the ability to provide some remedy for concupiscence where there is not impotence. It is logical since it is not acceptable to remedy concupiscence without sexual intercourse.

However, you do not have to understand it, only you must give assent to it.

 

[St_Francis]

I’m sure you’re not the only one. It’s contradictory to refuse to marry a couple that can’t perform the act while promoting adoption as a good thing. But those same rules that reject an impotent couple are the same rules that reject same sex marriage, remarriage, and cohabitation.

I think the problem here is that sacramental marriage is an actual thing in and of itself. Humans do not *determine *what it is, we *discover *what it is. Marriage can be seen as God’s permission to have sex, and if it is not possible to have sex, then the permission sort of collapses.

 

[cycleman]

I was wondering why you posted that this was one of the reasons you left the Church?

The Church requires belief (and if one cannot believe assent) to ALL of Her teachings. The Church has no provision for lawful dissent, so my only choice was to leave.

 

[Vico]

The Church requires belief (and if one cannot believe assent) to ALL of Her teachings. The Church has no provision for lawful dissent, so my only choice was to leave.

One that is a baptized Catholic, can never “leave” although it is possible to stop practicing the faith.

 

[cycleman]

One that is a baptized Catholic, can never “leave” although it is possible to stop practicing the faith.

OK, I stopped practicing the faith. Whatever are the proper words.

 

[Vico]

Okay, one or both members of a couple is/are impotent. They have a lifetime loving bond and they want to get married, but they can’t get married in the Church. But they CAN get a civil marriage and live together. Impotence = no sex = no sin. What would be wrong with that?

Being impotent does not imply being without desire so there can be sin in this situation. We are to avoid the near accessions of sin. Certainly, a Catholic or Catholics living together civilly married without being married in the Church is giving scandal.

The two could be friends and live in different residences.

 

[cycleman]

Being impotent does not imply being without desire so there can be sin in this situation. We are to avoid the near accessions of sin. Certainly, a Catholic or Catholics living together civilly married without being married in the Church is giving scandal.

The two could be friends and live in different residences.

Where this comes apart for me, is that I don’t believe impotence should prevent a couple from having a lifelong bond living together, companionship, and in fact provide a loving home to adopted children.

The Church, according to you which I do not dispute, teaches:

• A couple, one or both who is/are impotent, cannot marry sacramentally
• Also cannot not marry civilly
• Also cannot live together in what would by physical limitation a pretty chaste life
• And worst of all despite potentially being able to be loving parents to adopted children cannot raise those children.

You believe that is God’s will as that is what the church teaches. Bottom line, I don’t believe God is that cruel or that he would reject marriage and parenthood for two people in such a situation.

 

[Vico]

Where this comes apart for me, is that I don’t believe impotence should prevent a couple from having a lifelong bond living together, companionship, and in fact provide a loving home to adopted children.

The Church, according to you which I do not dispute, teaches:

• A couple, one or both who is/are impotent, cannot marry sacramentally
• Also cannot not marry civilly
• Also cannot live together in what would by physical limitation a pretty chaste life
• And worst of all despite potentially being able to be loving parents to adopted children cannot raise those children.

You believe that is God’s will as that is what the church teaches. Bottom line, I don’t believe God is that cruel or that he would reject marriage and parenthood for two people in such a situation.

If you lead others into sin is it uncharitable. That is an offense to God and your neighbor.

 

[Elizium23]

Where this comes apart for me, is that I don’t believe impotence should prevent a couple from having a lifelong bond living together, companionship, and in fact provide a loving home to adopted children.

The Church, according to you which I do not dispute, teaches:

• A couple, one or both who is/are impotent, cannot marry sacramentally
• Also cannot not marry civilly
• Also cannot live together in what would by physical limitation a pretty chaste life
• And worst of all despite potentially being able to be loving parents to adopted children cannot raise those children.

You believe that is God’s will as that is what the church teaches. Bottom line, I don’t believe God is that cruel or that he would reject marriage and parenthood for two people in such a situation.

This is the problem with the sexual revolution. It denies that sex and marriage go hand-in-hand. Now people want their sex without marriage and they even want their marriage without sex.

There are several problems with your assertions. First, “a couple, one or both who is/are impotent, cannot marry sacramentally” - they cannot marry validly. Sacramentality only enters the picture for a valid marriage. “A pretty chaste life” - if this couple did live together it would necessarily be as brother and sister. No impure thoughts, no nudity or immodesty, no sharing a bed, no masturbation, making out, showers together, etc. etc. If I had a functioning libido this would drive me quite crazy after a while and I’d willingly move out. “Cannot raise adopted children” well, we all pay a price and suffer in this life.

Antecedent and perpetual impotence is, as I understand it, an exceedingly rare condition, given modern medical technology. As to women, it is naturally hard to see how they would be impotent, other than having mutilated sexual organs or being some form of intersex. It is especially difficult for me to imagine how two Catholic impotent people would meet and fall in love to the point where marriage was on the table. Is there a checkbox for it in online dating sites?

Sex is part of marriage because it is procreative and unitive. The procreative aspect is for children, and the unitive is for the couple to become “one flesh” and come together in love. This country has gone through a major redefinition of marriage last week, and it seems that that isn’t enough for some of us, who want marriage to be even more and more meaningless.

 

[Rence]

Being impotent does not imply being without desire so there can be sin in this situation. We are to avoid the near accessions of sin. Certainly, a Catholic or Catholics living together civilly married without being married in the Church is giving scandal.

The twocould be friends and live in different residences.

Soooooo, your interpretation is that someone wanting/wishing/pining to have that sexual relationship with ones spouse, which is required by the church, is sinful. I’m sure I’m not the only one who doesn’t see that as quite right.

 

[Rence]

Where this comes apart for me, is that I don’t believe impotence should prevent a couple from having a lifelong bond living together, companionship, and in fact provide a loving home to adopted children.

The Church, according to you which I do not dispute, teaches:

• A couple, one or both who is/are impotent, cannot marry sacramentally
• Also cannot not marry civilly
• Also cannot live together in what would by physical limitation a pretty chaste life
• And worst of all despite potentially being able to be loving parents to adopted children cannot raise those children.

You believe that is God’s will as that is what the church teaches. Bottom line, I don’t believe God is that cruel or that he would reject marriage and parenthood for two people in such a situation.

I’m sure there are others who have difficulty believing those things to being true teachings. I’d have to talk to a priest about all that before believing it. All together it doesn’t sound right. Did you leave the church after being tutored by online communities or did you actaually sit down with a priest?

 

[Vico]

Soooooo, your interpretation is that someone wanting/wishing/pining to have that sexual relationship with ones spouse, which is required by the church, is sinful. I’m sure I’m not the only one who doesn’t see that as quite right.

No, not for validly married. The original quote did not get included, it referred to those not validly married:

Okay, one or both members of a couple is/are impotent. They have a lifetime loving bond and they want to get married, but they can’t get married in the Church. But they CAN get a civil marriage and live together. Impotence = no sex = no sin. What would be wrong with that?

 

[cycleman]

I’m sure there are others who have difficulty believing those things to being true teachings. I’d have to talk to a priest about all that before believing it. All together it doesn’t sound right. Did you leave the church after being tutored by online communities or did you actaually sit down with a priest?

No, I have not talked to a priest. I first found out about this from a news article about someone being denied marriage, and started reserarching it mostly looking at Canon Law. I don’t remember the specific article, but I just went back and googled for news stories and found at least these two.

The first is case from Italy, the second is a case from Brazil whose story was made into a documentary.

So based on these bishop’s actions, as well as Canon Law, it is clear that the Church denies marriage to the permanently impotent.

From Italy
dw.com/en/italian-bishop-refuses-wedding-to-impotent-man/a-3398632

From Brazil
dsq-sds.org/article/view/379/505

 

[St_Francis]

Where this comes apart for me, is that I don’t believe impotence should prevent a couple from having a lifelong bond living together, companionship, and in fact provide a loving home to adopted children.

The Church, according to you which I do not dispute, teaches:

• A couple, one or both who is/are impotent, cannot marry sacramentally
• Also cannot not marry civilly
• Also cannot live together in what would by physical limitation a pretty chaste life
• And worst of all despite potentially being able to be loving parents to adopted children cannot raise those children.

You believe that is God’s will as that is what the church teaches. Bottom line, I don’t believe God is that cruel or that he would reject marriage and parenthood for two people in such a situation.

OK, so if a person is impotent, he cannot marry because he cannot consummate the marriage. Well, he has no need to marry, because he cannot have sex.

Moreover, someone who is impotent is unable to fulfill the marital obligation, and that is cery important as the other person, living in close proximity, could fall inti serious temptation or sin.

Now, people can maintain close, loving relationships for a long time. They don’t have to live together, they don’t have to marry.

As to adoption: adoption is for the good of the child. It is not for some desire of the adult. People do not have some sort of right to acquire children.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

As to adoption: adoption is for the good of the child. It is not for some desire of the adult. People do not have some sort of right to acquire children.

 

[Antegin]

Bottom line, I don’t believe God is that cruel or that he would reject marriage and parenthood for two people in such a situation.

It’s not a punishment. It’s about fitting a square peg in a round hole; it just won’t go in. Justice is TRUTH tempered with Charity. No matter how much charity we have in our hearts when faced with impotence or same sex attraction, if we do not teach correctly and absolutely what is the TRUTH, what we do is not just. The image of God is

• One man, one woman
• In a permanent (till death do us part)
• Conjugal union
• Open to life

Any thing added or removed from a marriage adulterate the image of God.

 

[ericc]

Hypothetically a person with normal desires but had an accident/sickness where his member was damaged or severed would not be able to marry. He is not impotent but structurally unable to perform.

But with surgery or in future, lab grown parts, permitting reattachment of the member or genetic treatment to coax a regrowth of the member would be able to if treatment is successful. Comments? Genetics is a difficult and often grey area.