SPLIT: Changes in lay participation in the Liturgy

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… sacred silence is an integral part of any Liturgy.
I assume you mean that it is so in principle. The question is: At what point is a seemingly good idea that virtually always leads to terrible implementations admitted to be a bad idea?
… that the altar server make a confession of sins on the people’s behalf was simply an awful idea…This is simply a very large problem that the Council sought to rectify.
Context. Context. Context. In order for that to be a convincing description of Prayers at Foot of the Altar in old Mass, we need at least:
  1. Everybody can read.
  2. Everybody can afford books.
  3. Polyglot Missals have been published in local vernacular or
  4. Everybody knows some Latin
  5. And perhaps, Everybody feels comfortable speaking out loud during Mass
Obviously, when the practice emerged, those things weren’t true. So, maybe “outdated,” but not “awful.”

Now, why not say, with Martin Luther, that after vernacular languages had achieved a certain literary status in 14th century or so, there just wasn’t any reason for Mass or Bible to be exclusively in Latin?

I think the answer is: Because if you do, “inclusive” hymnals, ICEL banality, etc, are coming your way, guaranteed.

This is a hard truth about social engineering that conservatives have understood since at least time of Edmund Burke: Perfectly plausible, seemingly good ideas have unintended consequences. It’s wise to appreciate traditions that change organically.
ASD;4659661:
Did people actually say that speaking the altar boys’ responses out loud made them understand better or experience Mass more deeply, or whatever? Or is this something we’re just supposed to assume is true because it sounds plausible?
While I do not have sources to indicate the opinion that people expressed, I think it is fair to say that quite apart from their feelings, the recitation by the people themselves of such prayers as the Confiteor ontologically improved their experience of the Mass.
Fair point.
In other words, quite beyond what they felt, when the people were able to confess their own sins before God rather than standing by as it was done for them, they ontologically …The point is that those aspects of participation in which the Council called for the people to take part were indeed beneficial…making those responses which ought to be personal truly personal, such as confessing sins, wishing peace upon the Priest’s spirit, etc.
Perhaps. But, (1) Most people used to go to confession before Mass to get their ontological fix, so, from one point of view, no big gain there; and (2) the Confiteor at the foot of the altar was, by comparison, sort of ritualistic or symbolic, right? That seems OK to me. Like at Lavabo, the Priest celebrant isn’t really washing his hands.
Now my opinions don’t matter. What does matter is the bishops assembled in general council under the genuine guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our opinions are of little value compared to the decision off the Church in a general council.
Sure, I appreciate that your response to OP involves objectively describing results of council rather than your own opinions. Fine. But it was a pastoral council, right? All these bold, clever innovations are mandated for our good? There has to be some kind of accountability or at least discussion and evaluation of results.
ASD;4659661:
It’s as if the bishops decided that speaking out loud with my neighbors is community; but praying in silence and stillness with them is not.
…The judgment of the bishops was not that silence was not community and communal song or speech is, but rather that both are and that the Mass in its [old] form was lacking in one of these two aspects…
Well, OK. I don’t feel like we gained much community that way.
…Now in practice, clearly the silence has been overshadowed, and in most places even eliminated.
In most contexts, most conversations that one gets into about other stuff, that would be considered tantamount to saying, “It was a bad idea.” It kinda reminds me of old debates about “really existing socialism.” 😉
ASD;4659661:
To clarify, besides maybe lay readers and EMHC, what are the “Liturgical actions taken by the whole congregation” now?
The Psalm response, the Confiteor/Kyrie, giving their assent in the various amens (a very underrated part of the Mass, btw…the “Et cum spiritu tuo,” the Sanctus, Mysterium Fidei, Gloria, the hymns
Hmm. What is a “liturgical action?”
ASD;4659661:
Once people have been told that reverent silence and stillness are inadequate, it’s pretty hard to tell them that they’re now too showy or that they’re merely celebrating themselves. And, once the ball is rolling, it’s not surprising to me that people get caught up in innovation, novelty, tinkering, updating, etc.
…I do see, however, hope that the ball can be stopped.
Yes.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar
 
I assume you mean that it is so in principle. The question is: At what point is a seemingly good idea that virtually always leads to terrible implementations admitted to be a bad idea?
A good idea that always leads to terrible implementation is a bad idea insofar as that an integral part of any idea is its implementability; if something cannot be implemented, then it has no real use.

The problem with this argument is that there is a vast, vast chasm between something virtually always having lead to bad implementations in a finite (and particularly small) number of attempts at implementation and one virtually always leading to bad implementations by something intrinsic to it. Clearly, the reform was the first, but I do not believe it was the latter. Allow me to give several reasons why.

First, there exists a rather clear practical example of such liturgical changes not leading to the sorts of problems we saw in the Latin Church, and that is the Anglican church. When things such as the vernacular were first brought into use in the Anglican church centuries ago, their service remained extremely beautiful and reverential. Of course there were other problems, such as their elimination of the idea of sacrifice from their liturgy, and of course their being separated from Rome. However, both of those are somewhat irrelevant to the question of whether engaging the people in a more active way in the liturgy will by its nature lead to abuses. It is highly doubtful that the mere inclusion of words signifying sacrifice would have changed all of this. The Anglican church today is still an example, for while offshoots such as the Episcopalians in the US have had, dare it be said, even more outrageous examples of irreverance than in the Catholic Mass, the Anglican communion in Britain has maintained something quite nice.

What all of this tells us is that it is not the vernacular, responses on the part of the people, etc., that are the problem, but rather external factors such as the culture into which the liturgy is introduced.

Secondly, Pope Benedict believes the implementation to be correctable, and has written about it in the past.

Third, there has been no real attempt to correct the implementation, or to put it better, no completed attempt. John Paul II tried to begin such a thing, but he did it without fire and brimstone, not forcing it upon the Church but attempting to lead them. Benedict has taken a similar approach. In other words, they have not simply issued a decree which in strong language demands certain practices cease, for that may well do more harm than good, but rather, the effort is to piece by piece - or brick by brick, as Fr. Z would say - bring things aright. And, let it not be forgotten that a major part of that is to correct the orthodoxy and faith of the people itself, so that they will be open to and desire the liturgy restored as it ought to be.

Fourth is a point which follows from this statement about correcting the faithful’s orthodoxy: I firmly believe that, apart from the reform, similar abuses to which we have seen would have occurred under the 1962 Missal. That was the way the world was going, and it was this that needed correction more than anything. There were already a great number of dissident priests and bishops in the Church in the 50s and 60s, and these persons would have had their influence one way or the other, leading to perhaps even more egrigious results given the exact nature of the Pian Missal. Everything I know about the culture of the faithful of the Church in the time immediately preceding, during, and following the Council indicates this to be true.
Context. Context. Context…
Again, I point to Anglicanism as a counterexample to your guarantee. So far as the rest of the point is concerned, it is certainly a good point as regards the merits of the practice at its origin. However, by the 1960s, certainly this was not a limitation, and at this point I believe the practice of having the acolyte speak for the people was a limitation, certainly to the ontological reality of their confessing of their sins and the like, and to other things as well. Shortly put, at a time when people could read, and when people could memorize and repeat certain responses with understanding, there is no reason to have it done for them, and doing so only detracts from the meaning and effect of the Mass. In fact, even if we do not consider the vernacular this is true. Pius XII, for example, ordered that the the bishops see to it that all the world’s faithful learn to sing “at least” a given set of Gregorian chants in Latin, including certain settings of the Gloria and the Sanctus. He did not consider there to be any obstacles to people offering some of the prayers themselves, considered it an imperitive thing to do, and considered the people quite capable of learning chant and Latin.

So far as the vernacular is concerned, the problem is not in its nature - for Latin was instituted in the first place precisely because it was the vernacular of most people in the Church, and that went well for centuries until other languages outmoded it in general use (again, in a different culture, which is the real issue here) - but in the particular place and time and the particular way it was implemented. This could easily be corrected by means of things such as Litugircam Authenticam, and we are seeing that it is. The process is simply slow, in order not to push people out of the Church by this but to draw them along into the proper manner of celebration.
 
Perhaps. But, (1) Most people used to go to confession before Mass to get their ontological fix, so, from one point of view, no big gain there; and (2) the Confiteor at the foot of the altar was, by comparison, sort of ritualistic or symbolic, right? That seems OK to me. Like at Lavabo, the Priest celebrant isn’t really washing his hands.
Regardless of confession before Mass, the Confiteor served - as does the Rentitential Rite today - as a true cleansing of those minor sins which a person may have committed between confession and Mass. We are to approach the altar of God completely pure, and this is the purpose of the Confiteor. However, even were it completely and entirely symbolic, is not it in the very principles of our Catholic faith and practice, and indeed in those of the TLM itself, that better symbolism is better? I have heard time and time again criticisms of the Pauline Missal in that the TLM far more realistically symbolizes certain things, so why in this case is the lesser symbolism appropriate? No, there is no getting around it: confessing one’s sins via proxy - symbolically or not - is a poor thing when the people are capable of doing it themselves.

Yet this gets to a greater point, which is what the Council sought: the Liturgy is a real, true event… it is the true Sacrifice of Christ the Lord. The Church wants the people not simply to be observers with rapt and prayerful focus, but participants on a practical level as well. She wants, as in the quote provided by benedictgal, that our actions begin to be indistinguishable from Christ’s, so far as that is possible. This does not, again, mean infringing on the clerical roles, but it does mean some degree of more active participation as I have tried to explain, and as the Pauline Missal called for (psalm responses, the people saying the Penitential rite, etc.)
Sure, I appreciate that your response to OP involves objectively describing results of council rather than your own opinions. Fine. But it was a pastoral council, right? All these bold, clever innovations are mandated for our good? There has to be some kind of accountability or at least discussion and evaluation of results.
As I said above (and really as I have tried to make more specific points about in my entire writing in this thread), yes I believe it is for our good, where it is properly implemented. I also believe that even in its thus far imperfect implementation, it prevented far, far worse things from happening had this not been the case. We live in a fast world, a microwave culture where we expect things in seconds, and where the internet provides us allll the information we need instnatly. I do not believe that most people in the Church would have continued to sit through entirely Latin Masses as the years went on, but that we would have seen even greater declines in attendance than we have. I believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church, and did in the case, for Her good. Now, certainly we ought to sit through a Mass said in the clicking languages of some African peoples if God asks us to, but the point is that Christ is about coming to us, and removing the barriers we have set up… that is the very essence of the Incarnation, and so I believe that yes, while we ought to sit through Latin Masses, Christ has preferred we sit through ones with some vernacular rather than leave by our own sinful prefences.
In most contexts, most conversations that one gets into about other stuff, that would be considered tantamount to saying, “It was a bad idea.” It kinda reminds me of old debates about “really existing socialism.” 😉
There is a difference. Socialism was implemented as socialism was intended. The reform was not. Of course, one may argue that socialism was implemented apart from the ideas of violence and persecution and these sprang up later, to which I would say two things. First, persecution of religion and the like is not, as some claim, not a part of communism. It has always been an integral part and was understood by the communist regimes to be at the outset. Second, as I explained several times above, the reform does not inherently lead to abuses. It did as implemented, but we have both examples of such “reforms” without the abuses, and we do not have examples of the Church trying to properly implement the reform in an authoritative way, at least not yet. We will see this as the overall plan of changing the culture and hearts
of the Catholic faithful is carried out.
Hmm. What is a “liturgical action?”
I thought I had provided examples?

God bless
 
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