SPLIT: Charismatic--what it is/means for Catholics

[TheMc]

It is very common for Charismatics to experience tongues during adoration of the blessed sacrament, but no, the Franciscan Friars are not a charismatic community.

I just have to ask: What is it with charismatics and “speaking in tongues”? It just sounds like a bunch of babbling to me. In case they didn’t know, the when real gift of speaking in tongues was given, everyone could understand those blest with the gift (cf. Acts 2:6).

IDK, if someone says they’re speaking in tongues, and no one can understand them, I would be temped to think their “gift” is from the other place…

 

[TrueLight]

It is very common for Charismatics to experience tongues during adoration of the blessed sacrament, but no, the Franciscan Friars are not a charismatic community.

This is where Fr. Benedict Groschel is from, and he is a very conservative orthodox Catholic. He is tolerant of charismatics, but does not show much interest in it himself.

So are you saying if I were to go to such an Adoration of the Blessed sacrament, I am likely to hear someone speaking in tongues next to me?

 

[guanophore]

I just have to ask: What is it with charismatics and “speaking in tongues”? It just sounds like a bunch of babbling to me. In case they didn’t know, the when real gift of speaking in tongues was given, everyone could understand those blest with the gift (cf. Acts 2:6).

IDK, if someone says they’re speaking in tongues, and no one can understand them, I would be temped to think their “gift” is from the other place…

It is a pure form of prayer, because the ego cannot get in the way of it. It is the Spirit praying through the person, speaking the mind and heart of God. I know there are some of you that don’t suffer from mental distractions during prayer, but for those of us who have an overactive mind, being able to bypass it is a great blessing during prayer.

There is one form of tongues that functions that way, but there are many varieties. In this context we are speaking of a private prayer language that is not intended to be understood by others. It is for the building up of the believer.

But, if you don’t believe in this gift, then it would be prudent for you not to concern yourself with it. Whatever does not proceed from faith is a sin, and such things can certainly emanate from “the other place”.

 

[guanophore]

So are you saying if I were to go to such an Adoration of the Blessed sacrament, I am likely to hear someone speaking in tongues next to me?

No, it is not a form of prayer that is to be used aloud in the congregation. Although it is a fact that it is misused frequently in this way by Pentecostals, and others who refuse the instruction of the Apostle that one should not use the gift in the meeting unless there is an interpreter. The Apostle teaches that one is to keep the prayer to themselves.

 

[A_Catholic]

It is very common for Charismatics to experience tongues during adoration of the blessed sacrament, but no, the Franciscan Friars are not a charismatic community.

This is where Fr. Benedict Groschel is from, and he is a very conservative orthodox Catholic. He is tolerant of charismatics, but does not show much interest in it himself.

It is true that the Friars are not a charismatic group, but I have heard Fr. Groeschel on his program say that only good things come from the Charismatic movement. He definitely supports it. For those who do not know the history of Charismatic movement in the Catholic church, it started around 1967 in Pittsburgh with a group of about 4 Catholics in consultation with the Protestants. The Charismatic movement, as we see it today, originated with Protestants. It has since become a recognized movement in the Catholic church, and usually involves guitars and drums and rock music, speaking in tongues, of course, and being slain in the spirit. So even though the charismatic movement is not officially a part of the Friars, judging by the pictures on their website, they do bring that atmosphere to the Catholic underground. It would seem to be a movement aimed at young people. It does not seem to be something that most Traditional Catholics would be comfortable with.

 

[TheMc]

It is a pure form of prayer, because the ego cannot get in the way of it. It is the Spirit praying through the person, speaking the mind and heart of God. I know there are some of you that don’t suffer from mental distractions during prayer, but for those of us who have an overactive mind, being able to bypass it is a great blessing during prayer.

There is one form of tongues that functions that way, but there are many varieties. In this context we are speaking of a private prayer language that is not intended to be understood by others. It is for the building up of the believer.

But, if you don’t believe in this gift, then it would be prudent for you not to concern yourself with it. Whatever does not proceed from faith is a sin, and such things can certainly emanate from “the other place”.

You still haven’t answered my post. This is completely the opposite of the gift of tongues in scripture. On Pentecost, everyone could understand. In this “gift,” no one can.

How can you respond to this?

I just have to ask: What is it with charismatics and “speaking in tongues”? It just sounds like a bunch of babbling to me. In case they didn’t know, the when real gift of speaking in tongues was given, everyone could understand those blest with the gift (cf. Acts 2:6).

IDK, if someone says they’re speaking in tongues, and no one can understand them, I would be temped to think their “gift” is from the other place…

 

[TrueLight]

But, if you don’t believe in this gift, then it would be prudent for you not to concern yourself with it. Whatever does not proceed from faith is a sin, and such things can certainly emanate from “the other place”.

The only thing is guanophore, if I were to go to someplace like the Catholic Underground for adoration and someone next to me started speaking in tongues, it would be distracting to me at best.

So some of us may just stay away from charismatic environments, which is why I’m asking about the Catholic Underground.

 

[guanophore]

It is true that the Friars are not a charismatic group, but I have heard Fr. Groeschel on his program say that only good things come from the Charismatic movement. He definitely supports it. For those who do not know the history of Charismatic movement in the Catholic church, it started around 1967 in Pittsburgh with a group of about 4 Catholics in consultation with the Protestants. The Charismatic movement, as we see it today, originated with Protestants. It has since become a recognized movement in the Catholic church, and usually involves guitars and drums and rock music, speaking in tongues, of course, and being slain in the spirit. So even though the charismatic movement is not officially a part of the Friars, judging by the pictures on their website, they do bring that atmosphere to the Catholic underground. It would seem to be a movement aimed at young people. It does not seem to be something that most Traditional Catholics would be comfortable with.

You are right about the discomfiture of Traditionalists with anything that has it’s roots in Protestantism.

But when the CCR started, there were no Protestants present. There was a group of Catholic (only) students and advisors in front of the Blessed Sacrament praying for the outpouring of the HS. They had a spontaneous experience of the HS and began to speak in tongues.

Most Traditionalists seem to believe this incident at the Duquesne retreat is not from God.

 

[guanophore]

You still haven’t answered my post. This is completely the opposite of the gift of tongues in scripture. On Pentecost, everyone could understand. In this “gift,” no one can.

How can you respond to this?

I can’t tell you any more than what is already written in the scriptures. I responded tol both of these pointe in my post. I think that you did not read my post. Or, perhaps you read it, and just reject my response outright, so consider it a “non-response”?

 

[guanophore]

The only thing is guanophore, if I were to go to someplace like the Catholic Underground for adoration and someone next to me started speaking in tongues, it would be distracting to me at best.

So some of us may just stay away from charismatic environments, which is why I’m asking about the Catholic Underground.

Yes, I see your point, of course. I find myself distracted when people sing or pray out loud durning adoration as well. I regularly attend an adoration (under obedience) that has very little silent periods in the 3 hour time. It drives me crazy. It is not charismatic either.

 

[WesleyF]

The only thing is guanophore, if I were to go to someplace like the Catholic Underground for adoration and someone next to me started speaking in tongues, it would be distracting to me at best.

When I spoke in tongues, I made sure no one else heard me. They were praising God themselves and the music was playing too. So no one heard me.

 

[TheMc]

I can’t tell you any more than what is already written in the scriptures. I responded tol both of these pointe in my post. I think that you did not read my post. Or, perhaps you read it, and just reject my response outright, so consider it a “non-response”?

I did read your post, but you still failed to respond. Let me rephrase my question.

In scripture, speaking in tongues meant that everyone could understand you.
In the charismatic movement, speaking in tongues means no one can understand you.

These are exact opposites. How do you justify this? How can you even call this “The Gift of Tongues?”

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[Sarabande]

I just have to ask: What is it with charismatics and “speaking in tongues”? It just sounds like a bunch of babbling to me. In case they didn’t know, the when real gift of speaking in tongues was given, everyone could understand those blest with the gift (cf. Acts 2:6).

IDK, if someone says they’re speaking in tongues, and no one can understand them, I would be temped to think their “gift” is from the other place…

I didn’t want to mention this in the other thread as I wanted to keep on topic there. I’ve had one experience of “speaking in tongues”. It was back in college when I attended a Catholic conference. One of the choice of “activities” was attending a Charasmatic mass. I was and am one to not make an opinion on something before actually experiencing it (to a certain extent - I won’t do things that will threaten my health, nor did I engage in activities like pre-marital sex, etc. just to make an opinion on things. But in regards to growing spiritually and other activities, I will experiment) and I was very much into discovering and deepening my sense of spirituality, so I tried it out.

When I try things out, I like to get myself as open to the experiment as possible . During the mass, I got myself right in the front and allowed everything to permeate me as the people there told me to do. Next thing I knew, all of these non-distiguishable words were spewing from my mouth without my choosing. After the experience, I thought it was incredible and interesting. But once the excitement and everything else died down, I was able to analyze the sequence of events which led me to do this and to pray over it. For me, I concluded that it was a psychological phenomenon when a crowd of fervent people are together and subconciously get people in the mood and kind of rewire your mind as you allow yourself to be led by the actions of the group around you.

I know for me, I kept hearing the people around me speaking in tongues, the lights were dimmed, repeated music, almost like a modern-day “chanting” (not really, but the same short melody and words repeated over and over again). It reminded me of a couple prayer services I attended with friends of mine (not Catholic) and people would start falling to the ground, shaking, like they were having massive seizures, taken with the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt in my mind that these people are very legit and sincere about what they are experiencing, but I think it is psychologically induced.

Because I think most charismatics are truly sincere and believing in what they experience, I would not want to put it down for them. I do think they really get something out of it. But to me, I just don’t think it is truly speaking in tonguest, but I also don’t want to say it is something from another entity either. That would be presuming too much.

Also, as you had mentioned, I always remembered in the Bible story, people could understand each other whereas, you can’t understand anyone at these events. So, it didn’t make sense to me intellectually. Since this was something that was intended to introduce to college-age Catholics, you were able to ask questions about it after mass. I did ask about why we couldn’t understand. It was explained to me that this was the language of God, so we weren’t supposed to “understand” it on an intellectual level but more on a feeling level. Not that I’m a scientific person, as I think I am more of a “feeler”, but that just wasn’t a sufficient-enough explanation. Because, even when I feel something spiritually, rather than intellectually, it is still very clear to me. The other is "muddy’, yet I can truly say I was caught up in the moment, so I didn’t have any “intellectual” thoughts at the time it happened.

Anyway, it’s just my opinion on it as I believe it is permitted by the Church. So, my opinion is just an opinion.

 

[TrueLight]

ut.

When I try things out, I like to get myself as open to the experiment as possible . During the mass, I got myself right in the front and allowed everything to permeate me as the people there told me to do. Next thing I knew, all of these non-distiguishable words were spewing from my mouth without my choosing. After the experience, I thought it was incredible and interesting. But once the excitement and everything else died down, I was able to analyze the sequence of events which led me to do this and to pray over it. For me, I concluded that it was a psychological phenomenon when a crowd of fervent people are together and subconciously get people in the mood and kind of rewire your mind as you allow yourself to be led by the actions of the group around you.

Thank you so much for sharing. I was always skeptical about the gift of tongues even when I used to hang around a lot of Pentecostal churches.

When I was about 22 or so, my sisters and I visited a church. It was a Pentecostal/charismatic type of church that practiced reception into the body of Christ, as modeled by the conversion of the Eunuch in the book of Acts.

There was an altar call and whoever said they believed gott baptized immediately and then wentto the “upper room” to await the coming of the Holy Spirit.

For some reason, my sister who was about 15 went up to the altar and professed that she believed. She was baptized straight away and disappeared upstairs to the upper room.

My other and sister and I quietly sneaked upstairs to see what was going on. We peeked in and saw a room full of new converts who were essentially being coached on how to speak in tongues. They were told to pray with all their heart for the Spirit. I saw converts crying and pleading including my sister for the Spirit to come down.

I specifically heard one “guide” say, “Try this. Just say “ma-ma-ma-see-ya” over and over”. The new convert started to say it and eventually a torrent of ma-ma-ma-see ya’s was spewing from her mouth.

It turns out my sister did not receive the “gift.”

Tell me this is not psychological.

 

[TheMc]

Thank you so much for sharing. I was always skeptical about the gift of tongues even when I used to hang around a lot of Pentecostal churches.

When I was about 22 or so, my sisters and I visited a church. It was a Pentecostal/charismatic type of church that practiced reception into the body of Christ, as modeled by the conversion of the Eunuch in the book of Acts.

There was an altar call and whoever said they believed gott baptized immediately and then wentto the “upper room” to await the coming of the Holy Spirit.

For some reason, my sister who was about 15 went up to the altar and professed that she believed. She was baptized straight away and disappeared upstairs to the upper room.

My other and sister and I quietly sneaked upstairs to see what was going on. We peeked in and saw a room full of new converts who were essentially being coached on how to speak in tongues. They were told to pray with all their heart for the Spirit. I saw converts crying and pleading including my sister for the Spirit to come down.

I specifically heard one “guide” say, “Try this. Just say “ma-ma-ma-see-ya” over and over”. The new convert started to say it and eventually a torrent of ma-ma-ma-see ya’s was spewing from her mouth.

It turns out my sister did not receive the “gift.”

Tell me this is not psychological.

I had always wondered if this sort of thing was happening…Not to say it happens everywhere…

 

[jimrob]

I suppose we can expect the Spirit to affect us all differently. Generally at ceremonies where we call upon the Holy Spirit - in particular Confirmation and Ordinations - I go very quiet, which is most unusual for me.

There is a charismatic group called the Prince of Peace Fellowship in our Deanery. They used to be based in our Parish and occasionally I went to their services. I was unconvinced by the tongues and found the music a bit simplistic, but what really worried me was when my accountant was slain in the Spirit.

I lent them some sound equipment once and they kept it for far longer than we had agreed. I found myself saying “I’m going to phone that Prince of Peace Fellowship and give them hell.”

 

[guanophore]

I did read your post, but you still failed to respond. Let me rephrase my question.

Clearly, the reading of the post, then, did not influence your errant understanding. I am not sure repeating the information will help.

For those who are not so narrow minded, though, and are interested in learning, I will do so.

In scripture, speaking in tongues meant that **everyone** could understand you

This is one of many varieties of speaking in tongues. This is the form that was manifested at Pentecost. There are other forms that are not understood by everyone.

In the charismatic movement, speaking in tongues means no one can understand you.

This is a false statement.

This is not taught in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, because it is not consistent with the Teachings of the Church. It is seen in Pentecostal communities where there are rampant abuses, fabrications, departures from Apostolic doctrine.

These are exact opposites. How do you justify this? How can you even call this “The Gift of Tongues?”

The only opposition I can see here is your attitude. I think there is no justification for such an attitude.

How can you say that the Gift of Tongues is not valid? Such a position is contrary to Scripture, and the TEaching of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

I can truly say I was caught up in the moment, so I didn’t have any “intellectual” thoughts at the time it happened.

Maybe your experience was a product of human imagination. But, Scripture does state that your experience is consistent with the gift.

“For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also…” 1 Cor 14:14-15

When a person prays in the spirit, the “mind is unfruitful”. It is not a form of prayer that comes from the mind, but through the Spirit.

Rom 8:26-27
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

It is a prayer that passed through a person, but does not originate in the person. The origin of the intercession is from God, to God. We are blessed to partake of the prayer.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you so much for sharing. I was always skeptical about the gift of tongues even when I used to hang around a lot of Pentecostal churches.

When I was about 22 or so, my sisters and I visited a church. It was a Pentecostal/charismatic type of church that practiced reception into the body of Christ, as modeled by the conversion of the Eunuch in the book of Acts.

There was an altar call and whoever said they believed gott baptized immediately and then wentto the “upper room” to await the coming of the Holy Spirit.

For some reason, my sister who was about 15 went up to the altar and professed that she believed. She was baptized straight away and disappeared upstairs to the upper room.

My other and sister and I quietly sneaked upstairs to see what was going on. We peeked in and saw a room full of new converts who were essentially being coached on how to speak in tongues. They were told to pray with all their heart for the Spirit. I saw converts crying and pleading including my sister for the Spirit to come down.

I specifically heard one “guide” say, “Try this. Just say “ma-ma-ma-see-ya” over and over”. The new convert started to say it and eventually a torrent of ma-ma-ma-see ya’s was spewing from her mouth.

It turns out my sister did not receive the “gift.”

Tell me this is not psychological.

You certainly hit that nail on the head. One of many abuses that occurs.

No amount of abuse, however, can invalidate an authentic gift of God.