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ataylorfam
Guest
I’m a bit confused, sorry. Am I to understand that the Catholic church condones and acknowledes the gift of speaking in tongues - as in the glossolalia?
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, of course! The New Testament is written by Catholics. Everything in it is Catholic.
The CC does not embrace the Reformation heresies of Dispensationalism, one of which is that the charismatic gifts have ceased.
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TheMc
Guest
Yes, but if you are to speak in tongues, it should be done as in scripture, not the mindless babbling that is often seen at charismatic meetings.
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TheMc
Guest
If I’m going to speak in tongues, I want to to it the bible way:
The Coming of the Spirit. 1* When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.a 2And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind,* and it filled the entire house in which they were.b 3Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire,* which parted and came to rest on each one of them.c 4And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues,* as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.d
Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. [Read: They could be understood by everyone.]
They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.” [Read: Again → they could be understood by everyone.]
The Coming of the Spirit. 1* When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.a 2And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind,* and it filled the entire house in which they were.b 3Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire,* which parted and came to rest on each one of them.c 4And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues,* as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.d
Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. [Read: They could be understood by everyone.]
They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.” [Read: Again → they could be understood by everyone.]
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guanophore
Guest
:clapping:
Good for you!
I am glad that you are open to the working of the Holy Spirit in your life, and that you are willing to yield your spirit, lips, tongue and vocal cords to His purposes. :clapping:
They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.” [Read: Again → they could be understood by everyone.]
Good for you!
I am glad that you are open to the working of the Holy Spirit in your life, and that you are willing to yield your spirit, lips, tongue and vocal cords to His purposes. :clapping:
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Margie9
Guest
Psychosomatic, a self-induced temporary hysteria. Now that does not mean that the person is not completely sincere. The concern is, does “speaking in tongues” actually benefit the speaker, is it a neutral effect, or is it harmful because it is possibly a form of disorder? Charismatics seem to be like any other group of Catholics, there are different backgrounds, and different personalities, and they participate in various ways. That would be an argument AWAY from pathology. I have a harder time making an argument for a benefit, especially since this “gift” is only given to those who are “in the club” so to speak. At a typical suburban parish you don’t see people bursting out in the “gift of tongues” who have never done so or been strongly encouraged to do so. So would God give this “gift” only to those who are in the “movement”? Therefore I conclude it’s a psychological phenomenon, very easy to induce, and probably with moderate practice is not harmful. But is it spiritual? No. IMHO.
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guanophore
Guest
Certainly there are fabricated, self induced expressions that masquerade as gifts of the HS, but I agree with you, they are not spiritual, and cannot be considered a charismatic gift of those written about in the NT.
However, like any gift from God, a person must be willing to receive, unwrap, and use the gift, rather than bury it in the ground awaiting the return of the Master. Have you considered that persons in the “movement” tend to receive this gift because they are 1) aware it exists 2) are open to receiving it and 3) are willing to yield their bodies to God’s uses?
Certainly there are persons outside “the movement” who also do this, but by and large, it seems that most Catholics are quite uneducated about the charismatic gifts, and have never been taught how they are to be used (and not used).
I have to disagree with your conclusion. I think any self induced experience that is masquerading as a gift of God is definitely harmful to a person, and should in no way be encouraged, or tolerated in the Church of God.
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TheMc
Guest
Thank you! That’s why I sing in a schola.:clapping:
Good for you!
I am glad that you are open to the working of the Holy Spirit in your life, and that you are willing to yield your spirit, lips, tongue and vocal cords to His purposes. :clapping:
Better to sing the music of the church than anything else.
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TheMc
Guest
Thank you! I’m open to it, but I don’t expect it anytime soon.:clapping:
Good for you!
I am glad that you are open to the working of the Holy Spirit in your life, and that you are willing to yield your spirit, lips, tongue and vocal cords to His purposes. :clapping:
That’s why I sing in a schola.
That’s how I yield my spirit, lips, tongue and vocal cords to His purposes.
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dconklin
Guest
Speaking in tongues is a form of worship - as is holding hands during the Lord’s prayer. It is not in the “instructions” but it also not officially banned either.
Ah, but this comment is not so true. There are people blessed with the ability to understand the tongues.
How come there is so much perceived animosity towards the Fruits and Gifts of the Holy Spirit? This world (and Church) would be so much happier if we all just understood that absolutely anything is possible with God. If He wants us to worship through tongues, so be it.
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TheMc
Guest
You missed the point. Maybe a few people can supposedly “understand” but still not everyone can understand, which is what speaking in tongues is, according to scripture.
You mention that there’s different types of speaking in tongues, and that’s the reason for this discrepancy. But where do these different types come from? Correct me if I’m wrong, but they don’t seem to be coming from scripture.
I’m not against the gifts of the spirit. If I were to see someone preaching to people of different nationalities, and realized they were speaking in tongues, I would accept it whole heatedly.
What I am against is this emotional charismatic gibberish that people call “speaking in tongues” that has no basis in scripture. You have yet to explain where this “speaking in tongues” comes from, because it’s not in scripture.
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guanophore
Guest
I wish every Catholic would do this! I grieve that the singing does not seem to spring from the hearts of the faithful.Thank you! I’m open to it, but I don’t expect it anytime soon.
That’s why I sing in a schola.
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hazcompat
Guest
[1] Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. [2] For he that speaketh in a tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man heareth. Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries. [3] But he that prophesieth, speaketh to men unto edification, and exhortation, and comfort. [4] He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church. [5] And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth, than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification. [6] But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine? [7] Even things without life that give sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction of sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? [8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? [9] So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech, how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air. [10] There are, for example, so many kinds of tongues in this world; and none is without voice. [11] If then I know not the power of the voice, I shall be to him to whom I speak a barbarian; and he that speaketh, a barbarian to me. [12] So you also, forasmuch as you are zealous of spirits, seek to abound unto the edifying of the church. [13] And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. [15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, I will sing also with the understanding.
[16] Else if thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that holdeth the place of the unlearned say, Amen, to thy blessing? because he knoweth not what thou sayest. [17] For thou indeed givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. [18] I thank my God I speak with all your tongues. [19] But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue. [20] Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect. [21] In the law it is written: In other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and neither so will they hear me, saith the Lord. [22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers; but prophecies not to unbelievers, but to believers. [23] If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad? [24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or an unlearned person, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all. [25] The secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so, falling down on his face, he will adore God, affirming that God is among you indeed. [26] How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: let all things be done to edification. [27] If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. [28] But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God. [29] And let the prophets speak, two or three; and let the rest judge. [30] But if any thing be revealed to another sitting, let the first hold his peace. [31] For you may all prophesy one by one; that all may learn, and all may be exhorted: [32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [33] For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints. [34] Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. [35] But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. [36] Or did the word of God come out from you? Or came it only unto you? [37] If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man know not, he shall not be known. [39] Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues. [40] But let all things be done decently, and according to order.
drbo.org/chapter/53014.htm
Fast
[16] Else if thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that holdeth the place of the unlearned say, Amen, to thy blessing? because he knoweth not what thou sayest. [17] For thou indeed givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. [18] I thank my God I speak with all your tongues. [19] But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue. [20] Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect. [21] In the law it is written: In other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and neither so will they hear me, saith the Lord. [22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers; but prophecies not to unbelievers, but to believers. [23] If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad? [24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or an unlearned person, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all. [25] The secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so, falling down on his face, he will adore God, affirming that God is among you indeed. [26] How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation: let all things be done to edification. [27] If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. [28] But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God. [29] And let the prophets speak, two or three; and let the rest judge. [30] But if any thing be revealed to another sitting, let the first hold his peace. [31] For you may all prophesy one by one; that all may learn, and all may be exhorted: [32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [33] For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints. [34] Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. [35] But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. [36] Or did the word of God come out from you? Or came it only unto you? [37] If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man know not, he shall not be known. [39] Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues. [40] But let all things be done decently, and according to order.
drbo.org/chapter/53014.htm
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TheMc
Guest
Surprise, surprise. Dodging the question again.
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guanophore
Guest
And there are varieties that are not intended to be understood by anyone.
I don’t think the animosity is toward the fruits and gifts at all. I think the animosity is toward what is perceived as a counterfiet. If you read this thread, there are many Catholics who believe that there is no such thing as a valid gift of praying in tongues. They believe it is a product of the human imagination, or worse.
I think we would all have an animosity toward something that comes from a non-godly source and is claimed to be a gift of the HS.
You are missing out on some scripture here, TheMc. Making doctrinal assertions of this kind, based on only one part of the Scriptures, makes the individual appear ignorant. It is a practice of Protestants, to make doctrinal conclusions while refusing to examine what the whole of scripture says on a matter.
The only discrepancy here is in your mind, brother. But you are right, the gift of tongues does not come from scripture, it comes from the Holy Spirit. It existed before any of the New Testament was ever written. It is written about in the NT because the NT REFLECTS the faith of the Church. The NT is not the Source of the Church. Jesus is the Source.
Perhaps you will one day reach this level of acceptance toward all the gifts of the HS?
There is quite an ample supply emotional gibberish that happens at prayer meetings, sadly. There are also rampant abuses of the charismatic gifts, some of which are written about in the book of I Cor. 12 and 14. These communities do not follow the Apostolic instructions given in the Scripture for the use of these gifts, and they also, as has been testified, pressure people into manifesting “tongues” to the point of faking to fit into the group. These are improper practices which we should all oppose.
You have yet to be open to the fact that there are other scriptures besides Acts chap. 2 that refer to these other varieties of tongues.
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