SPLIT: Churches need to be designed around the Liturgy

[rondirect]

A lot of Catholics (and non-Catholics) poured in a lot of money for statues, communion rails, paintings, confessionals, flowers, candles, gold, censers, incence, etc. This wasn’t all for show; they were indeed gifts they brought for the greater glory of God. I can only presume churches which are empty have refused or discouraged such gifts from their parishioners?

Me thinks that thy priorities are mixed up. How do expensive gifts equate to the greater glory of God? I think the opposite is true. Pastors and the like should redirect the use of the hundreds of thousands of dollars that people pay to ornate and “beautify” their churches and give to the poor which IMO is the best for the glory of God. Jesus was a poor man all his life and we must live the Gospel and support the poor and the oppressed. And, yes, it is all for show and your presumption is incorrect IMHO.

 

[ProVobis]

Me thinks that thy priorities are mixed up. How do expensive gifts equate to the greater glory of God? I think the opposite is true. Pastors and the like should redirect the use of the hundreds of thousands of dollars that people pay to ornate and “beautify” their churches and give to the poor which IMO is the best for the glory of God. Jesus was a poor man all his life and we must live the Gospel and support the poor and the oppressed.

It seems that they should have thought of the poor when they decided to raze the altar rails, high altars, removed confessionals, pews, kneelers, as well. Do you realize how many billions of dollars were “wasted” on that? I’m not sure Christ Himself was poor, (He was given gold at birth and had a decent trade,) but He did attract attention bigtime with His whip and He talked against squandering money.

 

[rondirect]

It seems that they should have thought of the poor when they decided to raze the altar rails, high altars, removed confessionals, pews, kneelers, as well. Do you realize how many billions of dollars were “wasted” on that? I’m not sure Christ Himself was poor, (He was given gold at birth and had a decent trade,) but He did attract attention bigtime with His whip and He talked against squandering money.

Agreed. But I think mom and dad used the gold buying Pampers! LOL!

 

[Corki]

A lot of Catholics (and non-Catholics) poured in a lot of money for statues, communion rails, paintings, confessionals, flowers, candles, gold, censers, incence, etc. This wasn’t all for show; they were indeed gifts they brought for the greater glory of God.

Also some of what is ornate wasn’t costly at all. Example: the painted Churches in Texas. Many of them were painted to look like fine marble when they are just wooden inside. It was the desire and hard work of the parishioners bringing beauty though their talents even if their ‘treasure’ was sparse.

I can only presume churches which are empty have refused or discouraged such gifts from their parishioners?

Probably. It’s sad. My husband says if he ever wins the lottery, he’s donating a million to our parish for the building renovations but only on the provision that they install a marble altar in place of the wooden table they have now.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Regarding the photos posted earlier, all four have a certain architectural appeal for many people and all contain certain elements of traditional Christian architecture, such as a roughly basilican shape, high ceilings, and integrated Christian symbols. As a “beholder” myself who subscribes to the eastern tradition that a church should resemble the forecourt of heaven, I find that these churches remind me of the foyer of a museum or a medical office. People won’t drop their jaws in wonder at these churches as they might in Chartres or St. Peter’s. They might wonder who the architect was, or what the old church looked like.

 

[OraLabora]

Regarding the photos posted earlier, all four have a certain architectural appeal for many people and all contain certain elements of traditional Christian architecture, such as a roughly basilican shape, high ceilings, and integrated Christian symbols. As a “beholder” myself who subscribes to the eastern tradition that a church should resemble the forecourt of heaven, I find that these churches remind me of the foyer of a museum or a medical office. People won’t drop their jaws in wonder at these churches as they might in Chartres or St. Peter’s. They might wonder who the architect was, or what the old church looked like.

All examples were new constructions. They did not replace previous churches.

The first one, the one I am an oblate of, strikes more in person. The play of light is what really sets it apart from any church I’ve been in. It’s completely adapted to the reciting of the Divine Office to emphasize the time of day. When you visit, there’s no question it’s a church and not the foyer of a museum.

Again keep in mind that these are monastic churches, and that their simplicity is intentional.

 

[rondirect]

All examples were new constructions. They did not replace previous churches.

The first one, the one I am an oblate of, strikes more in person. The play of light is what really sets it apart from any church I’ve been in. It’s completely adapted to the reciting of the Divine Office to emphasize the time of day. When you visit, there’s no question it’s a church and not the foyer of a museum.

Again keep in mind that these are monastic churches, and that their simplicity is intentional.

No need to explain yourself, especially to me. I’ll worship in those beautiful churches anytime.

I must be from a different world. I see these monastic churches the true church “designed around the Liturgy.” I keep on referring to the Gospel, but no one ever mentions that. We, the people of God, are to leave all our wealth and belongings and follow Christ. We are instructed to feed the poor and help the oppressed. ** And, yet, when “I hit the lottery, I’m buying my church a new marble altar!” ** Yikes! I would help my church, of course, and pay its debts and then help feed and clothe the poor in my own backyard. Where are our priorities? Now, I love to visit a beautifully ornate church and go ahhh, but these pictures gave me the same feeling. On the other hand, I could not, will not, worship in a church that is over brimming with gold and statues and flying saints and angels. I could never concentrate as I listen to the lector proclaim the Word when there is so much wealthy distraction behind her or him. I could never concentrate on the altar when the sacrifice is being prepared, when right behind the priest is a tabernacle dripping in gold with who knows what flying around it. Such distractions; my mind will wander and concentrate on the beautifully ornate “things” that surround me instead of where I should be focusing. The monastic visions are true designs of what the liturgy means to me: simple, to the point with no distractions except on the Word of God and the Altar of Sacrifice. All the other stuff is just fluff, donated or not, new or old. Is a marble altar going to make your praises to God better? Will you be “happier” at mass if the altar was marble and not wood? Think about the cardboard table that they use in the war torn areas to celebrate mass as men and women give their lives for us…but I digress!

Churches need to be designed around the liturgy; yes, they do, and these pictures (thank you) are real examples of the liturgy. I could see the ornate churches if in Calvary Christ died on a cross made of mahogony!

 

[ProVobis]

simple, to the point with no distractions except on the Word of God and the Altar of Sacrifice. All the other stuff is just fluff, donated or not, new or old. Is a marble altar going to make your praises to God better? Will you be “happier” at mass if the altar was marble and not wood? Think about the cardboard table that they use in the war torn areas to celebrate mass as men and women give their lives for us…but I digress!

Seems like in the OT people would always bring the best of what they had in order to please God. The high priest would then be the one who made the final contact with God. Our concept is not really that different in the Mass. Read the Offertory Prayers in the OF. It’s more than bread and wine though. What about the building itself? What about the plumbing, the air conditioning, the heat? Who provides that? Who does the priest’s tax returns? (It seems people would be pro bono work for the Church. Not any more, it seems.)

Ornates are just the more visible “gifts,” if you will. You’re right, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter whether the altar is made of marble or wood. If all your parishioners are carpenters, then the best they can offer is something wooden. God should be somewhat pleased with that, I would think.

 

[rondirect]

Seems like in the OT people would always bring the best of what they had in order to please God. The high priest would then be the one who made the final contact with God. Our concept is not really that different in the Mass. Read the Offertory Prayers in the OF. It’s more than bread and wine though. What about the building itself? What about the plumbing, the air conditioning, the heat? Who provides that? Who does the priest’s tax returns? (It seems people would be pro bono work for the Church. Not any more, it seems.)

Ornates are just the more visible “gifts,” if you will. You’re right, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter whether the altar is made of marble or wood. If all your parishioners are carpenters, then the best they can offer is something wooden. God should be somewhat pleased with that, I would think.

Just one comment if I may. “God should be somewhat pleased?” God is pleased, IMO, if the altar was made of cardboard. The people as the definition of the church itself is what pleases God. The fact that they are there praising Him in love and adoration as He shows us, is all that is needed. All the ornate stuff is for our own “enjoyment” if you will. It does not, no, correction, it should not alter our worship or praise to Him. I remember when we had a festival when our new church was being built and the parish center was filled with festival things and we could not have mass in there. We set up a tent outside, had a make shift altar and rickity old chairs to sit on with a music stand for the ambo and an a folding table for an altar. It was a grass roots mass that day and the people felt comfortable and sang and responded full bodied! It was awesome. And, I digress again, but trying to make a point here: God is present everywhere and glad that we are praising Him using the elements of wood or stone or whatever. It what makes us feel comfy that gets in the way. Go to mass in any church and close your eyes and listen to the Word of God throughout the entire mass. Those elements (although beautiful) I am talking about should not affect your sense of praise to Him. If it does and you cannot see the beauty of the church itself, then, sorry to say, you are misguided in what liturgy is all about.

Bottom line: I have no idea what the title of this thread really means! Peace.

 

[ProVobis]

From the Roman Canon (EP1), (I don’t have the current translation handy; just the literal)

Te igitur, clementissime Pater,
You therefore, most merciful Father,

per Jesum Christum Filium tuum Dominum nostrum,
through Jesus Christ Son Your Lord our,

supplices rogamus, ac petimus,
beseeching humbly we request, and we ask,

uti accepta habeas, et benedicas,
that accepted you would have, and would bless

hæc dona, hæc munera, hæc sancta sacrificia illibata,
these gifts, these gifts, these holy sacrifices unspotted,

in primis, quæ tibi offerimus
in the first place, which to You we offer

pro Ecclesia tua sancta catholica:
for Church Your holy catholic:

quam pacificare, custodire, adunare,
which to pacify, to guard, to unite,

et regere digneris toto orbe terrarum,
and to rule grant over the whole world of earth

 

[Brendan]

Me thinks that thy priorities are mixed up. How do expensive gifts equate to the greater glory of God? I think the opposite is true. Pastors and the like should redirect the use of the hundreds of thousands of dollars that people pay to ornate and “beautify” their churches and give to the poor which IMO is the best for the glory of God. Jesus was a poor man all his life and we must live the Gospel and support the poor and the oppressed. And, yes, it is all for show and your presumption is incorrect IMHO.

Interestingly enough, your premise was exactly what the disciples advocated for in the story of the woman and the alabaster jar ( John 12, Matthew 26, Luke 7). They advocated that the money that the sinful woman spend on such rich perfume ( a year’s wages) would have been better spent on the poor.

Christ rebuked them for it.

Likewise, Christ, in the Old Testament, commanded that the tent of the tabernacle be built with gold, silver, fine woods and linens, richly formed and embroidered. Likewise, his instructions to David and Solomon on the construction of the Temple mandated rich materials.

God DOES see honor is the donation of wealth in His Honor as seen in His places of worship.

 

[rondirect]

Interestingly enough, your premise was exactly what the disciples advocated for in the story of the woman and the alabaster jar ( John 12, Matthew 26, Luke 7). They advocated that the money that the sinful woman spend on such rich perfume ( a year’s wages) would have been better spent on the poor.

Christ rebuked them for it.

Likewise, Christ, in the Old Testament, commanded that the tent of the tabernacle be built with gold, silver, fine woods and linens, richly formed and embroidered. Likewise, his instructions to David and Solomon on the construction of the Temple mandated rich materials.

God DOES see honor is the donation of wealth in His Honor as seen in His places of worship.

Agreed to a point. Churches are built with fine woods and fine materials for the most part if their means allow. However, I am talking about the over indulgence of the use of these materials. I think that some churches are overly ornate and yet beautiful, yes; but, how can we justify this when Jesus also says that we must take care of the poor? There has to be an equal balance. I am sure that the wood altar that someone posted about before was made of fine wood and cost plenty and meets the criteria of your quote. However, it disturbs me when some think that this is not good enough and a marble altar will better give glory to God.

Helping those in need is one of the major themes of the Bible and of Jesus’ ministry. As far back as the thirteenth century B.C., the Hebrews’ law institutionalized assistance to the poor:

When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:9-10)

Through service, we give others the things they lack, and we find meaning and fulfillment to our own lives. Both the Old and New Testament writings give many examples of the importance of service and charity:

He who despises his neighbor sins, but happy is he who is gracious to the poor. (Proverbs 14:21)

"Feed the hungry! Help those in trouble! Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you shall be as bright as day. And the Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy you with all good things, and keep you healthy too; and you will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring. (Isaiah 58:10-11)

And the crowds asked [John the Baptist], "What then should we do?" In reply he said to them, "Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise." (Luke 3:10-11)

But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? (1 John 3:17)

The Bible tells us to share generously with those in need, and good things will come to us in turn. We are not meant to live hard-hearted or self-centered lives. This is never made clearer than in Matthew 25:31-46. A greedy, miserly life leaves us devoid of anything but an empty craving for more possessions, more power or more status.

He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses. (Proverbs 28:27)

It is not necessary to be a wealthy philanthropist or a full-time volunteer to make a meaningful contribution. Rather, we should give generously of whatever wealth and abilities we have, no matter how small the amount.
And [Jesus] looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. And He saw a certain poor widow putting in two small copper coins. And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on." (Luke 21:1-4)