SPLIT: Confession to a priest not necessary

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What does Acts 2:38 say? It’s talking about remission of sins. It is not talking about forgiveness of sins by a priest. It is the salvvation message of the Gospel…, fulfilling the Great Commission. Nowhere does it say that Peter or anyone set up cconfessional booths and heard confessions.
Code:
       Peace,   Jack
Right, they didn’t. The Confessional booth was invented by the Irish in the 600s AD. Up until then, people made their Confessions publicly to the whole congregation in the presence of the Bishop. The idea of “confessing” to God alone in the privacy of your own mind was not even a consideration yet, while the Apostles were still living. (Keep in mind that the concept of “mental prayer” was developed by St. Teresa of Avila during the late 1500s - prior to that, all prayer was oral.)
 
With regard to venial sins, this is true - which is why we have the Penitential Rite at the beginning of every Mass, as well as holy water at all the entrances.

in the Confessional, we confess all of our mortal sins - those we did “with malice aforethought” as the old lawyer types would say. (Grave matter, freedom to choose, and full knowledge) 🙂
Yes, I see. And those one should not have trouble remembering. :eek:

Jon
 
LOL…
So…some of the greatest theologians have misinterpreted the (very clear) verses in Scripture concerning confession, while some random poster on an internet forum, who probably also thinks that the KJV is THE ONLY Word of God, have got it right?
They may be “very clear” to someone who ignores context and verb tenses and follows a Catholic tradition, even though you claim to be Lutheran. No, I’m not a “KJV only” advocate. That should be obvious from the fact that the KJV translates John 20:23 wrongly, as I have already pointed out. DUH!! The New American Standard Version has it right.
And finally: Luther followed Christ. So your alternative is a strawman…
Wrong again. There are many people in this forum who would dispute Luther’s following Christ. Wouldn’t they all become Lutherans if that were the case? But for some reason we still have a Catholic Church. So my alternative is NOT a strawman. DUH again.
 
Right, they didn’t. The Confessional booth was invented by the Irish in the 600s AD. Up until then, people made their Confessions publicly to the whole congregation in the presence of the Bishop. The idea of “confessing” to God alone in the privacy of your own mind was not even a consideration yet, while the Apostles were still living.
And the idea of “confessing” to a priest was unknown while the Apostles were still living as evidenced by the fact that in all his teachings, instructions, and admonitions in his dozen plus letters to the churches, the Apostle Paul does not mention it even ONCE. And he doesn’t mention a priesthood either, let alone confession to it.
(Keep in mind that the concept of “mental prayer” was developed by St. Teresa of Avila during the late 1500s - prior to that, all prayer was oral.)
**You are switching subjects from confession to prayer, but, again, you cannot know that about silent prayer, nor can you say “all prayer was oral” with any proof or documentation. Making silent prayer or confession to God some sort of recent invention dating back only to the 1500’s is utterly ridiculous.
**
 
Phil,

I’m assuming that you are an Evangelical. You sound a lot like I did when I was one. If I’m wrong, I apologize.

First let me point out that you are absolutely 100% correct when you say that only God can forgive sins. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church as well. The priest is acting in the authority (name) of Jesus when he says our sins are forgiven. The priest is not acting in his own name when he absolves us of our sins.

If I am correct about you being an Evangelical, you believe that, when you are born again, all of your sins - past, present and future - are forgiven. That is contrary to Scripture. In fact, the passage it contradicts is the one you mentioned above.

St. John says that “if we confess our sins, He (God) is will to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” While it is true that God knows our sins before we commit them, we do not. Therefore it is impossible for us to confess our sins prior to comitting them because we have to know them before we can confess them.

Now, you might argue that confession, in this context, means admitting to God that you are a sinner, not necessarily enumerating your sins. In that case, why would John be writing that to people who were already believers? They would have already made that type of confession, would they not? But what they could not yet do is specifically confess future sins.
When a person receives Christ and is thereby born again, he receives eternal life and justification and all of his sins are forgiven (past, present and future) in terms of his standing before God. He is justified, i.e., declared righteous by God, by virtue of his faith in the work of Christ bearing those sins and imputing His righteousness to the believer. Those sins are no longer held against the believer; they are paid for IN FULL. That forgiveness comes from hearing the Gospel, repenting, and believing the Gospel, i.e., that Jesus died for those sins and rose again. As to the future aspect of those sins, we must remember that (1) all of those sins are future to when Jesus died for them, (2) Jesus only died once and need not die again for sins committed after salvation was received. We know that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission” (Heb. 9:22) and therefore His shed blood paid for ALL those sins IN FULL, even those not yet committed when salvation was received, or else there would be no payment for them. (3) Nevertheless, sin committed after salvation, though paid for, disrupts fellowship with the Father, and for that fellowship to be restored, confession to Him is necessary. 1 John 1:9 is for believers who have sinned and need that fellowship restored, not for unrepentant sinners hearing the Gospel for the first time.
God could have set things up so that we didn’t need to confess our sins to Him through a priest but He chose to do so. Why resist Him? Do you not trust Him?
No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.
 
And the idea of “confessing” to a priest was unknown while the Apostles were still living as evidenced by the fact that in all his teachings, instructions, and admonitions in his dozen plus letters to the churches, the Apostle Paul does not mention it even ONCE. And he doesn’t mention a priesthood either, let alone confession to it.
St. Paul discusses the Ministry of Reconciliation in II Corinthians 5:16-21. He certainly makes it clear that what the Apostles were doing was continuing the same ministry that Christ had begun, of the forgiveness of sins, and that the people were to come to the Apostles to receive that forgiveness in person.
You are switching subjects from confession to prayer,
How would one “confess to God” in the silence of one’s own mind, other than by means of mental prayer? :confused:
but, again, you cannot know that about silent prayer, nor can you say “all prayer was oral” with any proof or documentation.
The documentation is in the writings of St. Teresa of Avila, and in the early reactions to her work. Mental prayer was indeed a new thing, that no one had been aware of prior to that time. It took the Bishops a long time to accept her work, and to grasp the idea that not everything in the mind need be spoken aloud in order for God to be able to hear it.
 
When a person receives Christ and is thereby born again, he receives eternal life and justification and all of his sins are forgiven (past, present and future) in terms of his standing before God. He is justified, i.e., declared righteous by God, by virtue of his faith in the work of Christ bearing those sins and imputing His righteousness to the believer. Those sins are no longer held against the believer; they are paid for IN FULL. That forgiveness comes from hearing the Gospel, repenting, and believing the Gospel, i.e., that Jesus died for those sins and rose again. As to the future aspect of those sins, we must remember that (1) all of those sins are future to when Jesus died for them, (2) Jesus only died once and need not die again for sins committed after salvation was received. We know that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission” (Heb. 9:22) and therefore His shed blood paid for ALL those sins IN FULL, even those not yet committed when salvation was received, or else there would be no payment for them. (3) Nevertheless, sin committed after salvation, though paid for, disrupts fellowship with the Father, and for that fellowship to be restored, confession to Him is necessary. 1 John 1:9 is for believers who have sinned and need that fellowship restored, not for unrepentant sinners hearing the Gospel for the first time.

No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.
Let me repeat. What you are saying contradicts 1 John 1:9. You are wrong.
 
No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.

Where exactly in scripture does it say that Jesus abrogated the priesthood? I don’t recall Jesus ever saying that He came to put an end to it. How about some real proof with actual quotations from Jesus Himself?
 
me: And the idea of “confessing” to a priest was unknown while the Apostles were still living as evidenced by the fact that in all his teachings, instructions, and admonitions in his dozen plus letters to the churches, the Apostle Paul does not mention it even ONCE. And he doesn’t mention a priesthood either, let alone confession to it.
St. Paul discusses the Ministry of Reconciliation in II Corinthians 5:16-21. He certainly makes it clear that what the Apostles were doing was continuing the same ministry that Christ had begun, of the forgiveness of sins, and that the people were to come to the Apostles to receive that forgiveness in person.
**The passage you cite does not say anything about people coming to the Apostles “to receive that forgiveness in person,” as you claim. The “ministry of reconciliation” is, simply put, preaching the Gospel to the lost and begging (beseeching, imploring, etc.) sinners to be reconciled to God through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which is the “message of reconciliation,” i.e., the Gospel. Forgiveness of sins and thereby reconciliation with God comes when the Gospel is preached and the hearers of the Gospel repent of sins and believe the Gospel that Jesus died for those sins and rose again. There is no confession to the preacher of the Gospel, other than perhaps a confession of faith (Rom. 10:9).

Furthermore, is that** the best you can do to find something Paul said that even remotely sounds like people confessing their sins to a priest, or of Paul admonishing people to do that? Again, there is no mention of a priest, or of confession of sins to a priest. In addition, the context of Paul’s letter to the believers at Corinth would indicate that ALL believers who have themselves been reconciled to God by believing that message of reconciliation have been entrusted with that message to share with all nonbelievers. It is not an “apostle” thing; it is a believer thing. Just as Jesus told the apostles in the Great Commission to go make disciples, baptize them, and teach them to go make disciples, baptize them and teach them to do the same, all believers today have the Gospel entrusted to them to share with the lost all around them. It is not limited to apostles and there need not be apostolic succession for that message to be carried on and handed down to succeeding generations.
How would one “confess to God” in the silence of one’s own mind, other than by means of mental prayer?

The documentation is in the writings of St. Teresa of Avila, and in the early reactions to her work. Mental prayer was indeed a new thing, that no one had been aware of prior to that time. It took the Bishops a long time to accept her work, and to grasp the idea that not everything in the mind need be spoken aloud in order for God to be able to hear it.
**Whatever that “documentation” is, it cannot possibly prove that no one prayed silent prayers until the 1500s. In Jesus’ teaching about prayer, He said, “But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you” (Matt. 6:6). God is all-knowing. He knows our thoughts, obviously, as did Jesus when He walked the earth (Matt. 12:25; Luke 6:8). He doesn’t need for us to verbalize a prayer out loud for Him to “hear” our prayers.
**
 
me: No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.
**Where exactly in scripture does it say that Jesus abrogated the priesthood? **I don’t recall Jesus ever saying that He came to put an end to it. How about some real proof with actual quotations from Jesus Himself?
There are no priests in Christ’s church because the function of a priest was always to act as a go-between representing sinful man before a holy God and offering up to that God a sin-offering to atone for man’s sins. But now, Christ did that ONCE FOR ALL!! There are no longer priests to do that. HE did it all! Christ commissioned his followers just before ascending to God to go and tell the Good News that He died for our sins and rose again. He did not tell them to go and be priests to offer up more sin-offerings or to re-offer the ONCE-FOR-ALL sin-offering of Himself, as if He were still offering up to God through priests the one sacrifice of Himself. He did that ONCE and sat down. That is never to be repeated. He died ONCE FOR ALL. Hebrews emphasizes that again and again.

Heb. 9:24-28 says:
  1. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
  2. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
  3. if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice.
  4. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
  5. so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
The one true church Jesus founded has no priests except the ONE Priest Who is after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7), and “because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood” (7:24). Christ fulfilled all the O.T. priesthood, becoming our Great High Priest — “we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God” (Hebrews 4:14). The whole book of Hebrews is an attempt to convince recent Jewish converts to Christianity to keep the faith and not return to Judaism. It compares the O.T. priesthood to Christ’s priesthood, showing the latter’s superiority because He “ever liveth to make intercession for us” (7:25), unlike the O.T. priests who died and were replaced. The one true church Christ built no longer has priests to act as mediators between God and man as the O.T. priests were. Today the middle wall of partition has been removed, the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, signifying that we have direct access to the Father through the Son, without the need for human priests to act as go-betweens.

If you are looking for a quote from the lips of Jesus Himself, you won’t find Him saying He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world—John had the privilege of proclaiming that. Jesus’ ONE sacrifice of Himself, acting as both Priest and Offering, fulfilled and abrogated the entire animal sacrificial system of the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, there is no other sacrifice that can be offered to God and without a sacrifice there is no need for a priest to offer it. That is why you don’t see Jesus or Paul describing any gift, office, or function of any member of the Body of Christ as being a “priest.” Jesus is our Great High Priest and He has already offered Himself ONCE FOR ALL and then SAT DOWN, indicating His work was finished, with no more offerings to be made.
 
me: No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.

There are no priests in Christ’s church because the function of a priest was always to act as a go-between representing sinful man before a holy God and offering up to that God a sin-offering to atone for man’s sins. But now, Christ did that ONCE FOR ALL!! There are no longer priests to do that. HE did it all! Christ commissioned his followers just before ascending to God to go and tell the Good News that He died for our sins and rose again. He did not tell them to go and be priests to offer up more sin-offerings or to re-offer the ONCE-FOR-ALL sin-offering of Himself, as if He were still offering up to God through priests the one sacrifice of Himself. He did that ONCE and sat down
. That is never to be repeated. He died ONCE FOR ALL. Hebrews emphasizes that again and again.

Heb. 9:24-28 says:
  1. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
  2. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
  3. if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice.
  4. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
  5. so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
The one true church Jesus founded has no priests except the ONE Priest Who is after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7), and “because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood” (7:24). Christ fulfilled all the O.T. priesthood, becoming our Great High Priest — “we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God” (Hebrews 4:14). The whole book of Hebrews is an attempt to convince recent Jewish converts to Christianity to keep the faith and not return to Judaism. It compares the O.T. priesthood to Christ’s priesthood, showing the latter’s superiority because He “ever liveth to make intercession for us” (7:25), unlike the O.T. priests who died and were replaced. The one true church Christ built no longer has priests to act as mediators between God and man as the O.T. priests were. Today the middle wall of partition has been removed, the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, signifying that we have direct access to the Father through the Son, without the need for human priests to act as go-betweens.

If you are looking for a quote from the lips of Jesus Himself, you won’t find Him saying He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world—John had the privilege of proclaiming that. Jesus’ ONE sacrifice of Himself, acting as both Priest and Offering, fulfilled and abrogated the entire animal sacrificial system of the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, there is no other sacrifice that can be offered to God and without a sacrifice there is no need for a priest to offer it. That is why you don’t see Jesus or Paul describing any gift, office, or function of any member of the Body of Christ as being a “priest.” Jesus is our Great High Priest and He has already offered Himself ONCE FOR ALL and then SAT DOWN, indicating His work was finished, with no more offerings to be made.
Sorry, you are wrong again.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=395441

posts # 11 and # 12 :tiphat:
 
me: No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.

There are no priests in Christ’s church because the function of a priest was always to act as a go-between representing sinful man before a holy God and offering up to that God a sin-offering to atone for man’s sins. But now, Christ did that ONCE FOR ALL!! There are no longer priests to do that. HE did it all! Christ commissioned his followers just before ascending to God to go and tell the Good News that He died for our sins and rose again. He did not tell them to go and be priests to offer up more sin-offerings or to re-offer the ONCE-FOR-ALL sin-offering of Himself, as if He were still offering up to God through priests the one sacrifice of Himself. He did that ONCE and sat down
. That is never to be repeated. He died ONCE FOR ALL. Hebrews emphasizes that again and again.

Heb. 9:24-28 says:
  1. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
  2. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
  3. if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice.
  4. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
  5. so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
Let us now turn to St. Paul’s epistles to his disciples Timothy and Titus. These three epistles were addressed to them to explain the duties of the pastoral office, and to guide them in the discharge of those duties; and in the course of his instructions and exhortations he refers to the ceremony of ordination. He gives to Timothy this admonition: “neglect not the grace that is in thee: which was given thee by prophecy, with the imposition of the hands of the priesthood,” or college of presbyters. (1 Timothy 4:14) Similarly in 2 Timothy 1:6: “I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God that is in thee by the imposition of my hands.” In these words are indicated an external rite, the imposition of hands, and an effect of grace produced by the rite. Guided by God through the prophets, St. Paul himself had chosen Timothy for the sacred ministy, and he, together with the presbyteral college, had laid hands upon him and thus made him a pastor of the Church. The imposition of the Apostle’s hands was the direct instrumental cause (2 Timothy 1:6) of the sacramental effect; but the essential action of the minster of the sacrament was accompanied by the imposition of the hands of the assembled presbyters as accessories or cooperators. (1 Timothy 4:14) The sacramental effect of grace was something permanently abiding in the soul (“the grace that is in thee”), which could be revived or made active, brought into operation at will. It was a grace which gave a supernatural fitness for the exercise of the pastoral office, and was described by St. Paul in the next verse: “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of sobriety.” (2 Timothy 1:7) These were the special graces received by the Christian pastor or bishop to fit him to discharge worthily the arduous duties of his office - fortitude, to profess and teach the faith and to govern the Church amid all the difficulties and dangers which a bishop must necessarily encounter from a hostile world, love of God and of the brethren, and moderation or self-discipline.

In this ceremony, therefore, we find all the elements necessary for a sacrament - the outward sign, the imposition of hands, which of course was always accompanied by appropriate prayer; the competent minister, St. Paul himself; and the internal grace which Timothy was admonished to rekindle within himself. Finally, the institution of Christ is implicit through it all, for it was undoubtedly in pursuance of the command of Christ: “Do this for a commemoration of me,” that the symbolical imposition of hands was introduced and handed down as an established right in the Church for the ordination of her ministers; and without the institution of Christ the ceremonial rite could have had no effect of grace.
 
Another reference by St. Paul to the ceremony of ordination is found in this injunction: “Impose not hands lightly upon any man,” (1 Timothy 4:14), which shows that Timothy had the power to impose hands on others, and so possessed the plenitude of power or episcopal office.

The only allusion to ordination in the epistle to Titus is in 1:5: “For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou . . . . shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.” In this passage the original word for “ordain” has only the general sense of appointing, constituting, and does not express the laying on of hands. But it is to be noted that the references to the imposition of hands that occur in the epistles to Timothy are in a sense casual and accidental. St. Paul is not instructing his episcopal delegate “how” to ordain. It is clear that he assumes Timothy’s perfect familiarity with the manner of ordaining priests, and that in doing so he will perform the ceremony as he has learned it from his Apostolic chief. And so it is with Titus. He was just as familiar with the ordination ceremony as was Timothy, and needed no instructions from St. Paul how to ordain. Hence, when he is told by the Apostle to “ordain priests in every city,” it was taken for granted that he will do this in the usual way, as he was ordained himself and had seen others ordained, i.e., by the imposition of hands. Indeed, he had already received his instructions in the matter by word of mouth from the Apostle: “as I also appointed thee.” This text therefore does furnish good evidence that the Pauline practice and manner of ordination was carried out throughout the whole of the region that was evangelised by the Apostle. In other words, the imposition of hands was the APOSTOLIC TRADITION!

The Council of Trent therefore teaches: “Since it is clear from the testimony of Scripture, from Apostolic tradition, and from the unaminous consent of the Fathers, that grace is conferred by sacred ordination, which is performed by words and external symbols, no one may doubt that Order is truly and really one of the seven Sacraments of Holy Church. For the Apostle sayeth: I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power and of love and of sobriety.”

Hope this helps ! :tiphat:
 
Sorry, you are wrong again.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=395441

posts # 11 and # 12 :tiphat:
If you want to respond to my post, could you please do so directly, giving your reasons for WHY you think I am “wrong again”? For example, I said Jesus is our Great High Priest. Do you think I am wrong in stating that? In other words, what in my post specifically is “wrong”? Do you think we still have priests to offer animal sacrifices? Etc. etc.
 
Phil12123;5922840 said:
There are no priests in Christ’s church because the function of a priest was always to act as a go-between representing sinful man before a holy God and offering up to that God a sin-offering to atone for man’s sins. But now, Christ did that ONCE FOR ALL!! There are no longer priests to do that. HE did it all! Christ commissioned his followers just before ascending to God to go and tell the Good News that He died for our sins and rose again. He did not tell them to go and be priests to offer up more sin-offerings or to re-offer the ONCE-FOR-ALL sin-offering of Himself, as if He were still offering up to God through priests the one sacrifice of Himself. He did that ONCE and sat down
. That is never to be repeated. He died ONCE FOR ALL. Hebrews emphasizes that again and again.

Let us now turn to St. Paul’s epistles to his disciples Timothy and Titus. These three epistles were addressed to them to explain the duties of the pastoral office, and to guide them in the discharge of those duties; and in the course of his instructions and exhortations he refers to the ceremony of ordination. He gives to Timothy this admonition: “neglect not the grace that is in thee: which was given thee by prophecy, with the imposition of the hands of the priesthood,” or college of presbyters. (1 Timothy 4:14) Similarly in 2 Timothy 1:6: “I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God that is in thee by the imposition of my hands.” In these words are indicated an external rite, the imposition of hands, and an effect of grace produced by the rite. Guided by God through the prophets, St. Paul himself had chosen Timothy for the sacred ministry, and he, together with the presbyteral college, had laid hands upon him and thus made him a pastor of the Church. The imposition of the Apostle’s hands was the direct instrumental cause (2 Timothy 1:6) of the sacramental effect; but the essential action of the minster of the sacrament was accompanied by the imposition of the hands of the assembled presbyters as accessories or cooperators. (1 Timothy 4:14) The sacramental effect of grace was something permanently abiding in the soul (“the grace that is in thee”), which could be revived or made active, brought into operation at will. It was a grace which gave a supernatural fitness for the exercise of the pastoral office, and was described by St. Paul in the next verse: “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of sobriety.” (2 Timothy 1:7) These were the special graces received by the Christian pastor or bishop to fit him to discharge worthily the arduous duties of his office - fortitude, to profess and teach the faith and to govern the Church amid all the difficulties and dangers which a bishop must necessarily encounter from a hostile world, love of God and of the brethren, and moderation or self-discipline.

I am not sure what ordination has to do with whether there are “priests” in Christ’s church today other than Christ Himself as our Great High Priest. Ordination is simply the process of choosing or selecting a person for special service. It is derived from a Greek word meaning “hand-reaching,” as in, raising the hand to vote for someone. Obviously, a leader was needed in any group of Christians and to “ordain” such a leader was just a matter of choosing or selecting that person from among the group, along with prayer that he would serve faithfully in that capacity, etc. The real issue is, were the leaders “priests”? Or were they the various offices or gifts that Paul listed in his various letters dealing with the subject, none of which Paul calls “priests”?

Paul said in 1 Cor. 12:28, “Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.”

Paul said in Eph. 4:11. “And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers

Paul said in Rom. 12:4. “For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function,
5. so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.
6. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: if prophecy, in proportion to the faith;
7. if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching;
8. if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”

Paul in 1 Tim. 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-9 speaks of qualifications for bishops and elders (treated as interchangeably the same office in Titus) and deacons.

Nowhere does Paul mention “priest”. Even “presbytor” (the transliteration of the Greek word for “elder”) is not a priest in the sense of one offering sacrifices to God or otherwise acting as a go-between or mediator between sinful man and a holy God. You certainly have misquoted 1 Tim. 4:14 by using the word “priesthood”. What version did you use to come up with that mistranslation?
 
**This may help touch up the biblical and historical roots for the priesthood. The following are selections from bringyou.to/apologetics.

If I find the exact article, I will give the link…**

…Now, the Greek word “presbyter” has an interesting position in the English language. While it’s usually translated as “elder,” the Greek meaning is actually more adjectival – being closer in meaning to “senior” – as in a “senior citizen” or a “father” of the community (i.e. a “patriarch”).

However, what’s most interesting for the Christian usage in English is that “presbyter” already has an equivalent word – an English word which draws its root from the Christian usage of “presbyter” in the Greek language; and that English word is “priest.”

This becomes most clear when one stops reading Scripture from the English (i.e. culturally-Protestant) perspective, and one realizes that the words “presbuteros” (in Greek) and “presbyterus” (in Latin) were used to designate the role of a Catholic (or Orthodox) priest for the first five to ten hundred years of Christianity. Indeed, if one travels to Greece today, one will notice that the Greek word for “priest” is still “presbuteros.”

The change is only apparent in English because we (as English speakers) are viewing things from an inverted perspective.

When we hear of Jewish or pagan “priests,” we assume the English word “priest” pre-dates the Christian usage, when in fact the word “priest” comes from the Christian usage of “presbuteros.”

Here’s how it works:
“Presbuteros” (Greek) → “Presbyterus” (Latin) -->“Prete” (Italian) → “Pretre” (French) --“Proest” (Old / Middle English) → “Priest” (Modern English).

So, the “presbyters” we see in Scripture are the “priests” of the Catholic Church. That is, they are those who preside as “fathers” at the new Passover Meal (the Eucharist / Holy Communion). For, in the Jewish Tradition, it was always the father who presided over the Passover Feast; and this Tradition has been elevated to the status of a far greater Passover Feast (the Eucharist), where the faithful are able to partake of the ONE Sacrifice of Calvary – made present in their midst.

Ignatius of Antioch was a man who both knew and was ordained by the Apostles. No modern scholar, Protestant or Catholic, seriously questions this fact. What’s morewhenever Ignatius uses the term “bishop,” it always applies to the leading, one-man shepherd of a city-church. Ignatius does not use the term “bishop” as the New Testament does, where the word is interchangeable with the term “presbyter.” Rather, for Ignatius, “bishop” and “presbyter” are clearly separate offices; and again and again, we see Ignatius referring to the traditional Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) three-fold ministry of “bishop / presbyter / deacon,” in which the term “bishop” (“overseer”) is used for the monarchical leading presbyter alone:

“You must all follow THE BISHOP as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbyters as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the church without THE BISHOP. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by THE BISHOP, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever THE BISHOP appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Ignatius, TO THE SMYRNEANS)

“…your most worthy BISHOP, and through your worthy presbyters Bassus and Apollonius, and through my fellow servant the deacon Soto, whose friendship may I ever enjoy, inasmuch as he is subject to THE BISHOP as to the grace of God.” (Ignatius, TO THE MAGNESIANS, Chapter II)

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ – they are with the THE BISHOP. …Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. …Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one Cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is ONE BISHOP with the presbyters and my fellow servants, the deacons.” (Ignatius of Antioch TO THE PHILADELPHIANS, 3:2-4:1)

Furthermore, despite what some other so-called “scholars” have directly stated in their books, St. Ignatius of Antioch did not “create” the office of “bishop”; nor did he, as some others have maintained, “suggest that each church have a bishop.” Rather, if one bothers to read Ignatius’ writings, he speaks of these bishops as already-existing in each of the Asian city-churches he writes to; and he even addresses all but one of these bishops by name.
 
I haven’t read all of the posts. But as always, it’s good to consult the early Church on their beliefs:

Here are some of their beliefs on the sacrament of penance:

AD 180/Irenaeus
“Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God–a thing which frequently occurs–have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this… a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, traveled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician.”
Against Heresies,1:13(A.D.180),in ANF,I:335

AD 180/Irenaeus
"Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this…
Irenaeus.Against Heresies,1:13(A.D.180),in ANF,I:336

AD 215/Hippolytus
“[Prayer for the Consecration of a Bishop] O God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…And now pour forth that Power which is from Thee, of the princely Spirit which…[Jesus] bestowed on Thy holy Apostles who established the Church which hallows Thee in every place to the endless glory and praise of Thy Name. Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest,that he may minister blamelessly by night and day,that he may unceasingly behold and propriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins…”
Hippolytus,Apostolic Tradition,3(A.D. 215),in AT,4-5

AD 248/ Origen
“In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance…when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord”
Origen,Homilies on Leviticus,2:4(A.D. 248),in JUR,I:207

AD 251/Cyprian
"Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God’s priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, 'God is not mocked…’

…He can more easily attain to pardon of his crime, yet he is not free from crime; and let him not cease to carry out his repentance, and to entreat the Lord’s mercy, lest what seems to be less in the quality of his fault, should be increased by his neglect of atonement. I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?"
Cyprian,To the Lapsed,28-29(A.D. 251),in ANF,IV:445

AD 250/Cyprian
"For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.’ "
Cyprian,To the Clergy,9(16):2 (A.D. 250),in ANF,IV:290

AD 295-373/ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA
Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest. (On the Gospel of Luke 19)

AD 333-397/ST. AMBROSE
But what was impossible was made possible by God, who gave us so great a grace. It seemed likewise impossible for sins to be forgiven through penance; yet Christ granted even this to His Apostles, and by His Apostles it has been transmitted to the offices of priest. (Penance 2:2:12)

AD 347-420/ST. JEROME
Just as in the Old Testament [ibi] the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament [hic] the bishop and presbyter * binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed. (Commentary on Matthew 3:16:19)*
 
Continued…

AD 354-430/ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO
Let this be in the heart of the penitent: when you hear a man confessing his sins, he has already come to life again; when you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confessing, he has already come forth from the sepulchre; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? “Whatever you loose on earth,” He says, “shall be loosed also in heaven” [Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23]. Rightly is the loosing of sins able to be given by the Church… (Psalms 101:2:3)

AD 374/ Basil
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted.”
Basil,Rule Briefly Treated,288(A.D. 374),in JUR,II:26

AD 387/Chrysotom
“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests…
For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.”
Chrysostom,The Priesthood,3:5(A.D. 387),in NPNF1,IX:47
 
When a person receives Christ and is thereby born again, he receives eternal life and justification and all of his sins are forgiven (past, present and future) in terms of his standing before God. He is justified, i.e., declared righteous by God, by virtue of his faith in the work of Christ bearing those sins and imputing His righteousness to the believer. Those sins are no longer held against the believer; they are paid for IN FULL. That forgiveness comes from hearing the Gospel, repenting, and believing the Gospel, i.e., that Jesus died for those sins and rose again. As to the future aspect of those sins, we must remember that (1) all of those sins are future to when Jesus died for them, (2) Jesus only died once and need not die again for sins committed after salvation was received. We know that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission” (Heb. 9:22) and therefore His shed blood paid for ALL those sins IN FULL, even those not yet committed when salvation was received, or else there would be no payment for them. (3) Nevertheless, sin committed after salvation, though paid for, disrupts fellowship with the Father, and for that fellowship to be restored, confession to Him is necessary. 1 John 1:9 is for believers who have sinned and need that fellowship restored, not for unrepentant sinners hearing the Gospel for the first time.

No, He did not choose to set things up so we had to confess our sins to Him through a priest. Confession is to HIM. There is no priesthood set up by God in the N.T. era. Christ fulfilled and abrogated the priesthood arrangement whereby the people had to go to a priest to get their sins forgiven by God. Christ is our Great High Priest and there is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews.
Phil, if our sins are paid in full by Christ’s sacrifice, then why it is necessary for *you *to confess any personal sin (as opposed to original sin) to God?
 
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