SPLIT: Cultural depictions of Jesus/Mary

[lizaanne]

No - the dog does not belong at Mass, as sweet as he may be.

And what’s with the African American Jesus on the processional cross? Christ was a Jew, He was not African American.

~Liza

 

[spn82756]

No - the dog does not belong at Mass, as sweet as he may be.

And what’s with the African American Jesus on the processional cross? Christ was a Jew, He was not African American.

~Liza

I don’t see a problem with a Black Jesus. All cultures depict Jesus in the image of their culture. Have you heard of the Black Madonna in Poland? I’m sure if you were to attend an Asian church Jesus would probably look Asian. BTW…what makes us so sure He looks anything like what Europeans/Americans depict Him looking like?

Also…look at how Jesus has been portrayed throughout Church history. Sometimes a very stern looking judge. Others very masculine…but “loving”. Others are very effeminate.

I don’t mean to pick on the post…I’m just trying to say that all cultures picture Christ in their image. After all…God made all different races in His image.

 

[Phemie]

No - the dog does not belong at Mass, as sweet as he may be.

And what’s with the African American Jesus on the processional cross? Christ was a Jew, He was not African American.

~Liza

Until we stop having blue eyed, curly blond haired infant Jesus statues I have no problem having an African American Jesus. He’s pretty well always depicted as looking like the culture doing the art work.

 

[spn82756]

Until we stop having blue eyed, curly blond haired infant Jesus statues I have no problem having an African American Jesus. He’s pretty well always depicted as looking like the culture doing the art work.

Exactly what I said!

 

[Charlotte408]

I kinda agree with liz on the whole african american jesus thing…not that I think he should be blue eyed and blonde haired either though mind you-

but he was a Jew…and I’d think he’d have a somewhat darker or swarthy complexion…darker hair…but not african american…

and as far as him resembling whichever culture that did the artwork, could you imagine a ‘chinese’ jesus?!? LOL…((my apologizies brief visual overcame me))… theres nothing racist about me, I’m not trying to be mean, but there is a certain level of ridiculousness…IOW I could never take a picture of a chinese jesus seriously…and likewise african american images of Him slightly turn me off…

Is that wrong?

I’m almost hesitant to type this for fear of backlash my goodness!!!

 

[GwenL]

And what’s with the African American Jesus on the processional cross? Christ was a Jew, He was not African American

If the Jesus on the processional crucifix was of Black African descent, wouldn’t He be “African-Galilean” and not “African-American?”

 

[bpbasilphx]

// Originally Posted by Phemie View Post
Until we stop having blue eyed, curly blond haired infant Jesus statues I have no problem having an African American Jesus. He’s pretty well always depicted as looking like the culture doing the art work.//

**There’s a beautiful Christmas song by Burt that expresses this sentiment:

Some Children See Him**

Some children see Him lily white,
the baby Jesus born this night.
Some children see Him lily white,
with tresses soft and fair.
Some children see Him bronzed and brown,
The Lord of heav’n to earth come down.
Some children see Him bronzed and brown,
with dark and heavy hair.

Some children see Him almond-eyed,
this Savior whom we kneel beside.
some children see Him almond-eyed,
with skin of yellow hue.
Some children see Him dark as they,
sweet Mary’s Son to whom we pray.
Some children see him dark as they,
and, ah! they love Him, too!

The children in each different place
will see the baby Jesus’ face
like theirs, but bright with heavenly grace,
and filled with holy light.
O lay aside each earthly thing
and with thy heart as offering,
come worship now the infant King.
'Tis love that’s born tonight!

 

[Tsuwano]

I kinda agree with liz on the whole african american jesus thing…not that I think he should be blue eyed and blonde haired either though mind you-

but he was a Jew…and I’d think he’d have a somewhat darker or swarthy complexion…darker hair…but not african american…

and as far as him resembling whichever culture that did the artwork, could you imagine a ‘chinese’ jesus?!? LOL…((my apologizies brief visual overcame me))… theres nothing racist about me, I’m not trying to be mean, but there is a certain level of ridiculousness…IOW I could never take a picture of a chinese jesus seriously…and likewise african american images of Him slightly turn me off…

Is that wrong?

I’m almost hesitant to type this for fear of backlash my goodness!!!

Could I imagine a Chinese Jesus? Actually, yes I could. Here in Japan I’ve often seen the Holy Family depicted as Japanese and wearing Japanese clothing. Also, Christmas cards are sold from a religious goods store connected with our Church and they depict a Japanese Madonna and child. The depictions of Jesus and the Holy Family are not intended to say this is how the historical Jesus and his family looked, but that all cultures are graced by God and that God may be reflected within all cultures. Jesus was incarnated into a particular time, culture, race and religion, but none of these human concepts are able to fully contain him. He is Chinese because he is both human and God and is not limited by human definitions of nationality or race.

 

[Charlotte408]

Could I imagine a Chinese Jesus? Actually, yes I could. Here in Japan I’ve often seen the Holy Family depicted as Japanese and wearing Japanese clothing. Also, Christmas cards are sold from a religious goods store connected with our Church and they depict a Japanese Madonna and child. **The depictions of Jesus and the Holy Family are not intended to say this is how the historical Jesus and his family looked, but that all cultures are graced by God and that God may be reflected within all cultures. ** Jesus was incarnated into a particular time, culture, race and religion, but none of these human concepts are able to fully contain him. He is Chinese because he is both human and God and is not limited by human definitions of nationality or race.

I take in the bolded part. Yeah I didnt mean it in any kind of racist way at all, but…along with the african american Jesus- I’ve heard adament claims that Jesus was black…along that slippery slope, I was just saying that, you know, could you imagine a chinese Jesus…that’d be ridiculous because he was sooo not chinese… But like you stated, if the intent is not to say that historically this is how he looked, if they KNOW, but, maybe relate better to a certain kinda look- thats more understandable…

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Until we stop having blue eyed, curly blond haired infant Jesus statues I have no problem having an African American Jesus\

**But Jesus could NEVER be an African American. He was not born in America.

In any case, the term African American is silly.

What do you call a Frenchman of African descent? A French African American?

Besides, if the anthropologists are right, EVERYONE born in the Western Hemisphere is an African American!**

 

[lizaanne]

Could I imagine a Chinese Jesus? Actually, yes I could. Here in Japan I’ve often seen the Holy Family depicted as Japanese and wearing Japanese clothing. Also, Christmas cards are sold from a religious goods store connected with our Church and they depict a Japanese Madonna and child. The depictions of Jesus and the Holy Family are not intended to say this is how the historical Jesus and his family looked, but that all cultures are graced by God and that God may be reflected within all cultures. Jesus was incarnated into a particular time, culture, race and religion, but none of these human concepts are able to fully contain him. He is Chinese because he is both human and God and is not limited by human definitions of nationality or race.

Ok - now that sold me. That makes sense. But you have to understand that in some areas of America some folks actually BELIEVE that Jesus was a black skinned, black haired African looking man. Your concept makes sense - but from where I live, that’s not what’s going on in some minds.

~Liza

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[SMHW]

No - the dog does not belong at Mass, as sweet as he may be.

And what’s with the African American Jesus on the processional cross? Christ was a Jew, He was not African American.

~Liza

I don’t have a problem with a culturally/racially depicted Jesus or a culturally depicted Holy Family so long as any culture/race is acceptable.

Interestingly, I believe most of the apparitions of the Blessed Mother have her appearing as if she was of the same ethnicity as that of the person visited.

 

[CatholicZ09]

It goes with their culture. Just like our culture typically depicts Jesus as white. He was most likely olive skinned because he did live in the Middle East, so he probably had the same skin tone as those whom he lived with.

 

[jc-servant]

Ok - now that sold me. That makes sense. But you have to understand that in some areas of America some folks actually BELIEVE that Jesus was a black skinned, black haired African looking man. Your concept makes sense - but from where I live, that’s not what’s going on in some minds.

~Liza

So those people are no more ignorant/uninformed than all those centuries of Europeans who depicted Jesus as if here were a fair European. Ask yourself why this bothers you so much that you felt the need to post when I highly doubt that you were as bothered by the European error.

Just let it go. Be glad they are Christian and following Jesus instead of turning away from “the white man’s religion” and embracing some fairly militant version of Islam as a more palatable alternative. There are many things about race in this country that also impact people in their faith life that someone from another racial or ethnic background may never fully understand.

I know of black Catholics who had to wait until all whites had received communion before they could go forward and that was in the 20th century. Things like that don’t leave the collective or individual memories of the group that was treated in such a poor manner simply because it was several decades ago. I have relatives who are black and Cherokee and they have no idea how I can be Catholic given the past actions against our ancestors (some of it in the not so distant) past that happened at the hands of Catholic priests, schools, etc. They cannot separate the actions of individuals from the faith as a whole. I believe that God being merciful and loving probably gives them a bit of slack since they do love and follow Him as Christians.

 

[pm1853]

St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal (which houses the Shrine of Blessed Andre Bessetet) has (or at the very least had) a “Nativity Room.” It contains nativity sets handcrafted from every* country in the world. One can easily find a Chinese, African, Semetic, Western European, Native American, Slavic, Greek, etc… etc… etc… depictions of Jesus (some even have livestock typical of their own geography or the manger built according to their own cultural architecture). Its quite amazing actually.

• Every country as of 2000. Its been years since I’ve been up there.

 

[servantofall]

It’s amazing to me how arrogant someone could be to think that an African, African-American, or Asian depiction of Jesus could be. Or to think that the term African_american is ridiculous. Take some time to study the history of the U.S. and you will see the ancesteral connection that many African -Americans have with Africa, thus the term. And yes I consider myself fully American and have served this country for 22years of my life. So is the depiction of Jesus as any ethnicity other than blonde haired blue eyed wrong? I think not. So if this bother you, consider that Jesus was a decendant of David, who fathered Solomon with Betsheba, an Ethopian( thus African), who is an ancestoro of Jesus. Thus Jesus would be considered of African descent as well as Jewish.
Bottomline, live up the the meaning of Catholic and accept all Catholics in the Universal Church. And by the way, I.m old enough to remember havinf to sit in the choir loft of a predominately “White” catholic church and having to wait until all of the so-called “White” people received the Eucharist. I say so-called White because here in New Orleans the Placage system thrived for many generations resulting in the births of thousands of children with “White” fathers and " Black" mothers.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

All I can say to this is that there have been approved apparitions of Mary in several Asian cultures where she appeared as a woman of that race. The one I am most familar with is Our Lady of La Vong in Vietnam.

marypages.com/LaVang.htm

Presumably a Mary of the race would give birth to a Jesus of that race. It’s not a crazy as it sounds. We are all, of all races, made in the image and likeness of God.

I kinda agree with liz on the whole african american jesus thing…not that I think he should be blue eyed and blonde haired either though mind you-

but he was a Jew…and I’d think he’d have a somewhat darker or swarthy complexion…darker hair…but not african american…

and as far as him resembling whichever culture that did the artwork, could you imagine a ‘chinese’ jesus?!? LOL…((my apologizies brief visual overcame me))… theres nothing racist about me, I’m not trying to be mean, but there is a certain level of ridiculousness…IOW I could never take a picture of a chinese jesus seriously…and likewise african american images of Him slightly turn me off…

Is that wrong?

I’m almost hesitant to type this for fear of backlash my goodness!!!

 

[rwillenborg]

I have this mini-collection of depictions of Jesus and Mary - and they always look like the nationality of the person who made the art, be it chinese, african, or european.
I think that’s a beautiful testament to the universality of the church!!
If Jesus is for all people at all times, and Mary is OUR mother, it shouldn’t be surprising that they look like the culture depicting them.
Jesus was a middle eastern Jew. So, that’s what he looked like. But, I can appreciate a level of artistic license to depict him, along with our Lady, as that particular group of people.
Who knows how dark Jesus REALLY was in real life? Who knows what hsi hair looked like, really? I appreciate the search for truth, but I also respect the UNDERLYING truth of Jesus - that he is Lord of ALL of us, and his mother is the mother of ALL of us.

God bless!!!

 

[bpbasilphx]

\So if this bother you, consider that Jesus was a decendant of David, who fathered Solomon with Betsheba, an Ethopian( thus African), who is an ancestoro of Jesus. Thus Jesus would be considered of African descent as well as Jewish.\

**Try again.

You’re confusing Bathsheba (a Jewish woman) with the Queen of Sheba, traditionally Queen Mendaka of Ethiopia, who bore a son by Solomon who was named Menelik.

The priest at the local Melkite parish was born in Egypt, where his family lived for generations.

HE is a true African-American, as he was BORN in Africa. Were you?**