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johndan
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My sons have been told that as altar boys they cannot kneel for Holy Communion. Is this so?
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TheMc
Guest
It is not true. As catholics, they have the right to recieve holy communion on the tongue on their knees in any roman rite church. No one can deny them this right, and the new GIRM has made this clear, along with other documents:My sons have been told that as altar boys they cannot kneel for Holy Communion. Is this so?
The norm established for the Dioceses of the united States of america is that holy communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive communion while kneeling (congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, March 25, 2004, no. 91)
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johndan
Guest
My gratitude for replying to my concern. I have asked my sons to kneel when receiving communion. Last Friday at school mass, my oldest (who is twelve)served and upon completion of mass was told by the celebrant that the General Instruction allow the congregation to take communion kneeling (though the USCCB wish standing were required) and that Extraordinary Ministers and Altar Boys are required to take communion standing, and are not even to genuflect before receiving. A simple head bow is allowed. This particular priest who is very much into form understood that my sons were instructed to kneel for communion by me. I approached him after mass on Sunday to ask why the boys (one 10 and one 12) were not allowed to kneel for Holy Communion. This is when he proceeded to lecture me on the General instruction.
When I asked him why he did not contact me as he knew the instructions were mine, he indicated that the instructions require that he correct to altar boy and he preferred to treat them with some responsibility. (So much for the parents being the primary educators of the faith.) Needless to say I am livid about his obtuse and disrespectful response. Do you have any idea why he is telling me the altar boys have different limitations from the congregation? Can the diocese possible place this limit on the altar boys?
When I asked him why he did not contact me as he knew the instructions were mine, he indicated that the instructions require that he correct to altar boy and he preferred to treat them with some responsibility. (So much for the parents being the primary educators of the faith.) Needless to say I am livid about his obtuse and disrespectful response. Do you have any idea why he is telling me the altar boys have different limitations from the congregation? Can the diocese possible place this limit on the altar boys?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Altar boys don’t have different requirements. The GIRM, nor any other document carrying force with it, makes differentiation between “the faithful.” “The faithful” are “the faithful” regardless of their potential action as an altar boy. The GIRM says the faithful can pick their posture. The GIRM doesn’t say anything about altar boys. So, the rule of “the faithful” applies. They can choose their posture. A diocese cannot direct otherwise.My gratitude for replying to my concern. I have asked my sons to kneel when receiving communion. Last Friday at school mass, my oldest (who is twelve)served and upon completion of mass was told by the celebrant that the General Instruction allow the congregation to take communion kneeling (though the USCCB wish standing were required) and that Extraordinary Ministers and Altar Boys are required to take communion standing, and are not even to genuflect before receiving. A simple head bow is allowed. This particular priest who is very much into form understood that my sons were instructed to kneel for communion by me. I approached him after mass on Sunday to ask why the boys (one 10 and one 12) were not allowed to kneel for Holy Communion. This is when he proceeded to lecture me on the General instruction.
When I asked him why he did not contact me as he knew the instructions were mine, he indicated that the instructions require that he correct to altar boy and he preferred to treat them with some responsibility. (So much for the parents being the primary educators of the faith.) Needless to say I am livid about his obtuse and disrespectful response. Do you have any idea why he is telling me the altar boys have different limitations from the congregation? Can the diocese possible place this limit on the altar boys?
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Elizium23
Guest
I beg your pardon, but there is something to be said for obeying your pastor, especially in a situation where one is carrying out a sacred ministry in service of the liturgy, and the presiding priest needs to have things done a particular way. Altar servers are duty-bound to obey their priest, particularly if he is not commanding us to sin. I think that it sets a bad precedent to tell young boys that they can disobey a priest just because the universal law happens to allow something for all people. Standing is a licit posture and it is prescribed by the USCCB for dioceses in the USA.
When the boys are not vested in cassock and surplice and they have assumed the role of laity in the pews, then they are entitled to carry out their faith in any way they see fit.
The pastor may be wrong in forcing his way, but you need to ask yourself if this is a battle that needs to be won, or if you should save your energy for a truly worthy occasion.
When the boys are not vested in cassock and surplice and they have assumed the role of laity in the pews, then they are entitled to carry out their faith in any way they see fit.
The pastor may be wrong in forcing his way, but you need to ask yourself if this is a battle that needs to be won, or if you should save your energy for a truly worthy occasion.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I’m going to be asinine and ask, “Show me the document.”I beg your pardon, but there is something to be said for obeying your pastor, especially in a situation where one is carrying out a sacred ministry in service of the liturgy, and the presiding priest needs to have things done a particular way. Altar servers are duty-bound to obey their priest, particularly if he is not commanding us to sin. I think that it sets a bad precedent to tell young boys that they can disobey a priest just because the universal law happens to allow something for all people. Standing is a licit posture and it is prescribed by the USCCB for dioceses in the USA.
When the boys are not vested in cassock and surplice and they have assumed the role of laity in the pews, then they are entitled to carry out their faith in any way they see fit.
The pastor may be wrong in forcing his way, but you need to ask yourself if this is a battle that needs to be won, or if you should save your energy for a truly worthy occasion.
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MarkThompson
Guest
This is correct, but it is only half correct. The children do have a right to kneel for Holy Communion, but they do not have any right to be altar servers. In just the same way, I have the right to wear brown shoes to Church, and the pastor has the right to say “If you show up in anything except neatly polished black oxfords, you can forget about serving at the altar.”It is not true. As catholics, they have the right to recieve holy communion on the tongue on their knees in any roman rite church. No one can deny them this right,
I’ll say it again: the children have every right in the world to kneel for Communion, and the priest has every right* to dismiss them from altar service if they do not adopt the uniform posture he prescribes for them.
*Please note: that doesn’t mean I think he would be in the right, which is a completely separate and immaterial issue.
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MarkThompson
Guest
It is in Canon 519: this is an exercise of the “function] of . . . governing” which belongs ultimately to the bishop as ordinary (see Can. 381 §1 (“all ordinary, proper, and immediate power”)) and is granted to the pastor with respect to “the community committed to him under the authority of the diocesan bishop.”I’m going to be asinine and ask, “Show me the document.”
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I’m not refuting this, but doesn’t this, then, mean that a bishop, and by extension a priest, may challenge through action anything that isn’t dogma?It is in Canon 519: this is an exercise of the “function] of . . . governing” which belongs ultimately to the bishop as ordinary (see Can. 381 §1 (“all ordinary, proper, and immediate power”)) and is granted to the pastor with respect to “the community committed to him under the authority of the diocesan bishop.”
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MarkThompson
Guest
No, it means that they exercise the function of governing the parish. There are some things that doesn’t include (e.g., telling you what cereal to eat for breakfast), and some things it does (e.g., directing altar servers to adopt uniform practices in accordance with the liturgical norm established for this country).I’m not refuting this, but doesn’t this, then, mean that a bishop, and by extension a priest, may challenge through action anything that isn’t dogma?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Then where is the defined line?No, it means that they exercise the function of governing the parish. There are some things that doesn’t include (e.g., telling you what cereal to eat for breakfast), and some things it does (e.g., directing altar servers to adopt uniform practices in accordance with the liturgical norm established for this country).
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MarkThompson
Guest
I’m the last person to ask; or perhaps I can say that I know for certain that there is no defined line at all. And before you mention it, no, it was not at all clear before Vatican II, either. Can your priest forbid you to watch a certain movie, for instance? That sort of thing didn’t used to be uncommon at all. Can a priest – who, let’s say, knows you are not poor – forbid you from coming to Mass and deny you the Sacrament if you wear a t-shirt? What if it’s only that you can’t wear a Texas Longhorns t-shirt, because he was an Oklahoma man? Do you think the Church has actually published the specifications of a “defined line” that would allow somebody to judge every possible case like this?Then where is the defined line?
So let’s set aside the question of whether there is a “defined line” or more of a fat stripe in varying shades of gray. For purposes of the discussion at hand, this is irrelevant, because, wherever such a line or stripe might fall, directing the postures of altar servers during the Holy Mass is unquestionably on the hither side of it. Altar servers serve purely at the pleasure of the pastor. If he does not like their haircut – or their XX chromosome, mind you – that’s it for them.
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TheMc
Guest
To be frank, he is totally wrong. Ask him where the new (or the old, for that matter) says that servers should receive standing. No one can force someone to receive standing.My gratitude for replying to my concern. I have asked my sons to kneel when receiving communion. Last Friday at school mass, my oldest (who is twelve)served and upon completion of mass was told by the celebrant that the General Instruction allow the congregation to take communion kneeling (though the USCCB wish standing were required) and that Extraordinary Ministers and Altar Boys are required to take communion standing, and are not even to genuflect before receiving. A simple head bow is allowed. This particular priest who is very much into form understood that my sons were instructed to kneel for communion by me. I approached him after mass on Sunday to ask why the boys (one 10 and one 12) were not allowed to kneel for Holy Communion. This is when he proceeded to lecture me on the General instruction.
When I asked him why he did not contact me as he knew the instructions were mine, he indicated that the instructions require that he correct to altar boy and he preferred to treat them with some responsibility. (So much for the parents being the primary educators of the faith.) Needless to say I am livid about his obtuse and disrespectful response. Do you have any idea why he is telling me the altar boys have different limitations from the congregation? Can the diocese possible place this limit on the altar boys?
T
TheMc
Guest
Posted by Elizium23
I beg your pardon, but there is something to be said for obeying your pastor, especially in a situation where one is carrying out a sacred ministry in service of the liturgy, and the presiding priest needs to have things done a particular way. [And there is also something to be said to a pastor overstepping his bounds. Why, may I ask, does he “need” them to stand?] Altar servers are duty-bound to obey their priest, particularly if he is not commanding us to sin.[And likewise, priests are bound to obey a higher authority. And he simply can not tell people they must stand.] I think that it sets a bad precedent to tell young boys that they can disobey a priest just because the universal law happens to allow something for all people.just because he wants to.] Standing is a licit posture and it is prescribed by the USCCB for dioceses in the USA.[And kneeling is also ALWAYS acceptable, as has been made clear by our Holy Father.]
When the boys are not vested in cassock and surplice and they have assumed the role of laity in the pews, then they are entitled to carry out their faith in any way they see fit.
The pastor may be wrong in forcing his way, but you need to ask yourself if this is a battle that needs to be won, or if you should save your energy for a truly worthy occasion.[Our reverence to the Eucharist is always a worthy occasion.]
I beg your pardon, but there is something to be said for obeying your pastor, especially in a situation where one is carrying out a sacred ministry in service of the liturgy, and the presiding priest needs to have things done a particular way. [And there is also something to be said to a pastor overstepping his bounds. Why, may I ask, does he “need” them to stand?] Altar servers are duty-bound to obey their priest, particularly if he is not commanding us to sin.[And likewise, priests are bound to obey a higher authority. And he simply can not tell people they must stand.] I think that it sets a bad precedent to tell young boys that they can disobey a priest just because the universal law happens to allow something for all people.just because he wants to.] Standing is a licit posture and it is prescribed by the USCCB for dioceses in the USA.[And kneeling is also ALWAYS acceptable, as has been made clear by our Holy Father.]
When the boys are not vested in cassock and surplice and they have assumed the role of laity in the pews, then they are entitled to carry out their faith in any way they see fit.
The pastor may be wrong in forcing his way, but you need to ask yourself if this is a battle that needs to be won, or if you should save your energy for a truly worthy occasion.[Our reverence to the Eucharist is always a worthy occasion.]
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TheMc
Guest
On paper, you’re right, but if you ask me, it’s a slippery slope. What’s he going to say next?This is correct, but it is only half correct. The children do have a right to kneel for Holy Communion, but they do not have any right to be altar servers. In just the same way, I have the right to wear brown shoes to Church, and the pastor has the right to say “If you show up in anything except neatly polished black oxfords, you can forget about serving at the altar.”
I’ll say it again: the children have every right in the world to kneel for Communion, and the priest has every right* to dismiss them from altar service if they do not adopt the uniform posture he prescribes for them.
*Please note: that doesn’t mean I think he would be in the right, which is a completely separate and immaterial issue.
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MarkThompson
Guest
A “slippery slope”? Do not forget that the bishops of this country have defined standing as the normative posture for reception of Holy Communion. Why, good heavens, maybe his next step will be to have the servers follow every norm!On paper, you’re right, but if you ask me, it’s a slippery slope. What’s he going to say next?
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
aaa
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TheMc
Guest
But a normative posture that is not binding. People are still free to kneel, because this is the latin rite. No bishop, priest, deacon, or EHMC should be restricting their right to kneel.A “slippery slope”? Do not forget that the bishops of this country have defined standing as the normative posture for reception of Holy Communion. Why, good heavens, maybe his next step will be to have the servers follow every norm!
If they want to kneel, then by golly, they can kneel.
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thomas_jd
Guest
Servers assist with the priests Permission. They do as they are told. If a server is told to kneel he knells, to stand he stands! Pastorally the priest is in charge.
As a server I have been told to act in a manner that is not consistant with my many years of serving. I finished serving as was directed. I will no longer serve for that priest.My choice.
I could bring a number of books to support my position but it is the priests call.
We had six servers at mass a short time ago, they received knelling on the second step at the high altar. If they choose a different position we could have two knelling on the steps, one standing below the communion rail ,two knelling at the communion rail and the last one… Be obedient to the priest or don’t serve!
As a server I have been told to act in a manner that is not consistant with my many years of serving. I finished serving as was directed. I will no longer serve for that priest.My choice.
I could bring a number of books to support my position but it is the priests call.
We had six servers at mass a short time ago, they received knelling on the second step at the high altar. If they choose a different position we could have two knelling on the steps, one standing below the communion rail ,two knelling at the communion rail and the last one… Be obedient to the priest or don’t serve!
T
TheMc
Guest
I’m aware that serving is a privilege, but this is what I talk about when I say “slippery slope”. He can kick out all the kids who don’t wear pink and pony tails (ie, in theory, all the altar boys), yet the church wouldn’t allow that ("[a priest] may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar [to allow female servers]"). So where do you draw the line?Servers assist with the priests Permission. They do as they are told. If a server is told to kneel he knells, to stand he stands! Pastorally the priest is in charge.
As a server I have been told to act in a manner that is not consistant with my many years of serving. I finished serving as was directed. I will no longer serve for that priest.My choice.
I could bring a number of books to support my position but it is the priests call.
We had six servers at mass a short time ago, they received knelling on the second step at the high altar. If they choose a different position we could have two knelling on the steps, one standing below the communion rail ,two knelling at the communion rail and the last one… Be obedient to the priest or don’t serve!
Yes, I know it’s a privilege, but the priest also shouldn’t be doing things like this.
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