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namaste8715
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Why do you (as Catholics) so often deny (or maybe just forget about) Ecumenism as a whole? I don’t mean to incite argument by asking, I’m just wondering.
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TimothyH
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Here in the deep south, Ecumenism is often deliberately used as a means to begin a conversation with Catholics on why the Catholic faith is wrong. The times I have been to Ecumenical gatherings, they were either deliberately designed for the purpose of evangelizing people out of other faiths or used opportunistically by proselytizers.
Every time I try to be ecumenical, I get some sort of challenge to my faith. This has left me personally very wary of anything labled “Ecumenical.” The best experiences are simply a few people sitting around who happen to start talking about faith. I find most individuals open to discussion and truly interested in my faith but organized ecumenical events are usually a non-starter for me.
We are also wary of being taught error. Our Church warn’s us sternly about knowingly placing ourselves in situations where our faith, and therfor our salvation, might be placed at risk. We are therefor very wary of placing ourselves in anything organized by a Protestant church.
And quite frankly, we have the Mass. What more do we need? Please don’t take this as a smug remark. It was not intended to be.
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Jean_Anthony
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TimothyH
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As posted in the other thread…
Here in the deep south, Ecumenism is often deliberately used as a means to begin a conversation with Catholics on why the Catholic faith is wrong. The times I have been to Ecumenical gatherings, they were either deliberately designed for the purpose of evangelizing people out of other faiths or used opportunistically by proselytizers.
Every time I try to be ecumenical, I get some sort of challenge to my faith. This has left me personally very wary of anything labled “Ecumenical.” Ecumenism seems to be tolerated more among Protestants but things change as soon as a Catholic is present. I’ve been to plenty of events at Protestant Churches but my Baptist and Evangelical friends wouldn’t be caught dead anywhere near a Catholic Church. Ecumenism seems to go only one way. The best experiences are simply a few people sitting around who happen to start talking about faith. I find most individuals open to discussion and truly interested in my faith but organized ecumenical events are usually a non-starter for me.
We are also wary of being taught error, as are our Protestant brother’s and sisters. Our Church warn’s us sternly about knowingly placing ourselves in situations where our faith, and therfor our salvation, might be placed at risk. We are therefor very wary of placing ourselves in anything organized by a Protestant church.
And quite frankly, we have the Mass. What more do we need? Please don’t take this as a smug remark. It was not intended to be.
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1ke
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If you are referring to the Church as a whole, your assertion is flawed. There are MANY Church documents on ecumenism, a whole Vatican office devoted to it as well as various Bishop’s conference offices devoted to it, and tangible fruit from the Catholic efforts in ecumenism (such as the Anglican Ordinariate and the joint delcaration with Lutherans, as two examples).
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namaste8715
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Nope, I wasn’t. I’ve read the documents to which you refer. I was just wondering if there was something that was holding Catholics back from having open dialogues about accepting all Christians into unity.
TimothyH answered my question pretty well when he said:
That’s really unfortunate Timothy, and I’m really sorry you’ve had such uncomfortable situations with Protestants. Maybe you’re on to something, though, that casual conversations may have a better effect than organized meetings.
I just get the general feeling from many Catholics (not all - disclaimer) that they are unwilling to any degree to accept Protestant or evangelical worship as valid, non-Catholic beliefs to hold water, or that non-Catholic Christians have any substantial spiritual weight, though the documents of the RCC strongly suggest for all Catholics to accept all non-Catholic Christians as spiritual brethren.
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Barbkw
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What in particular encouraged you to believe that Catholics deny or ignore Episcopalians?
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Belloc_Fan
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I think this is pretty fair – again, for only some of us (although I’m sometimes guilty of it myself). Protestant / Evangelical worship will never be the equal of Catholic worship, precisely because Christ designed worship to be done in the Church he founded upon Peter. The “Anglo-Catholic” Branch theory, that historic Christianity split into three equally valid expressions (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism) is one rejected by both the Catholics and the Orthodox. We strive to worship God *where *and *how * He tells us to worship Him, and anything else is inferior by nature.
So we don’t accept Protestant and Evangelical worship as equal, as if this is something that’s a mere matter of taste or preference. On the other hand, we should acknowledge Protestant and Evangelical worship as valid, in the sense that God blesses and honors those who seek Him earnestly, even if they’re in error at times. Does that distinction make make sense?
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namaste8715
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Yes, this makes perfect, and lovely, sense. I appreciate your viewpoint!
To Barbkw - I don’t necessarily feel that Catholics deny/ignore Episcopalians in general. My inquiry really isn’t an attempt to garner pity for my own faith - it’s just that in my experience (even on this very forum!) many Catholics are very quick to say how wrong, invalid, terrible, or inadequate Protestants/evangelicals are, when that in itself seems to go against Vatican teaching and suggestions.
Overall, and this is just MY little opinion, I think Catholics in the area in which I live (also the Deep South) should make a more significant attempt to accept non-Catholic Christian faiths and traditions. Perhaps, not through organized “sessions” but just through acceptance in your own hearts and minds.
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Prodigal_Son1
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I actually think Ecumenism is a goal of the Catholic Church.
Roadblocks seem to come from those who think Catholics need to change some of it’s doctrines/teachings, which cannot happen. For instance, can you accept that Catholics believe the Catholic Church is what Christ fully intended His Church to be, with all it’s doctrines and teachings?
That is not to say Protestants are wrong. We believe that which we have in common came from the Catholic Church. The problem is we see it as less than the fullness, which is understandably hard for a Protestant to accept. Can you agree that not all Protestant Churches have the same fullness of truth as your own Church?
None of us have the complete fullness of His truth. We learn as we spiritually grow. Catholics believe the Holy Spirit can, and does, work where, when and how it is according to His will. For those Catholics, who understand the faith, they cannot accept less than what they truly believe to be the fullness, according to their own capacity. In other words, some of us believe we will be judged on our own knowledge, that we believe to be one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and once realizing something as His truth we are obligated to that understanding.
Roadblocks seem to come from those who think Catholics need to change some of it’s doctrines/teachings, which cannot happen. For instance, can you accept that Catholics believe the Catholic Church is what Christ fully intended His Church to be, with all it’s doctrines and teachings?
That is not to say Protestants are wrong. We believe that which we have in common came from the Catholic Church. The problem is we see it as less than the fullness, which is understandably hard for a Protestant to accept. Can you agree that not all Protestant Churches have the same fullness of truth as your own Church?
None of us have the complete fullness of His truth. We learn as we spiritually grow. Catholics believe the Holy Spirit can, and does, work where, when and how it is according to His will. For those Catholics, who understand the faith, they cannot accept less than what they truly believe to be the fullness, according to their own capacity. In other words, some of us believe we will be judged on our own knowledge, that we believe to be one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and once realizing something as His truth we are obligated to that understanding.
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1ke
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Thanks for clarifying.
Well, no TimothyH answered for himself. You cannot extrapolate that to other people. Tha’ts his opinion of why HE approaches things a certain way.
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1ke
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What do you mean by accept non-Catholic Christian faiths and traditions?
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namaste8715
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Absolutely! I can absolutely accept that Catholics believe the Catholic Church is what Christ fully intended His Church to be - in fact, I would lose respect for a Catholic that didn’t hold this view.
No, I accept personally that Catholics don’t accept the fullness of a Protestant church. That’s ok. I’m not saying you’re wrong, or I’m wrong, or that either of us are right. I appreciate the differences in opinion, and enjoy learning more about the differences of the two. I sincerely appreciate the positive dialogue - that’s the point of Ecumenism! We don’t have to agree - just to accept one another. Correct?
In response to:
“Accept” is probably to tight a term. Perhaps “appreciate?” Here, in particular, is an exceprt from the Vatican’s Decree on Ecumenism I feel is often neglected by my Catholic brethren:
I don’t think any Catholic can disagree with me there…
(And as for the Timothy H comment, I was simply acknowledging and appreciating his kind and thoughtful response to the question… I didn’t mean to “extrapolate that” onto other people.)
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1ke
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I would agree.
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steve_b
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Isn’t that what this forum is all about? Dialogue with all those outside the Catholic Church?
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ProVobis
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I wonder, though, if attempts at true ecumenism are effective if your apparent objective is to convert them to your side. It seems as if ecumenism needs to recognize the other Christian denominations as “brothers” first before teaching them the Sacrifice of the Mass, confession, etc. They may very well be most ingrained in their own interpretations of the Bible and try to win you over to their side of thinking.
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The_Old_Medic
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Catholics, as a whole, do not either deny nor ignore Ecumenism. In fact, the Pope himself has expressed a great desire for Ecumenism (and this goes at least as far back as Pope John XXIII).
BUT, this all depends on what is meant by Ecumenism. If it is a common stance in belief in God, and for decency and morality, then the church as a whole supports it.
If is is designed to promote one religious ideal, while denigrating others, then the church does NOT in any way support such actions or beliefs.
Individual Catholics range from ultra conservative to ultra liberal in their beliefs, and practices, Just as Episcopalians do. Individual Catholics may, or may not, support any form of Ecumenism (generally, the more conservative they are, the less they will support this concept).
It is dangerous to try to put any one thing onto all Catholics, unless it is a matter of faith, morals or basic beliefs of the Church (such as true Apostolic Succession, the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc.). Those matters define us as Roman Catholics, and if a person does not accept them then they are NOT Catholic at all.
I personally have participated in ecumenical events on many occasions. I believe that they help to break down the walls of distrust between the various churches, and that they also help to dispel some of the erroneous beliefs that non-Catholics have about our church.
BUT, this all depends on what is meant by Ecumenism. If it is a common stance in belief in God, and for decency and morality, then the church as a whole supports it.
If is is designed to promote one religious ideal, while denigrating others, then the church does NOT in any way support such actions or beliefs.
Individual Catholics range from ultra conservative to ultra liberal in their beliefs, and practices, Just as Episcopalians do. Individual Catholics may, or may not, support any form of Ecumenism (generally, the more conservative they are, the less they will support this concept).
It is dangerous to try to put any one thing onto all Catholics, unless it is a matter of faith, morals or basic beliefs of the Church (such as true Apostolic Succession, the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc.). Those matters define us as Roman Catholics, and if a person does not accept them then they are NOT Catholic at all.
I personally have participated in ecumenical events on many occasions. I believe that they help to break down the walls of distrust between the various churches, and that they also help to dispel some of the erroneous beliefs that non-Catholics have about our church.
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1ke
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The goal of ecumenism is always unity:
822 Concern for achieving unity “involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike.” But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope “in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit.”
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fhansen
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Protestants, as part of a position that by necessity must sanction the validity of having more than one “church”, are more open to the idea that all Christian churches are one- so long as we’re centered on Christ. Catholics, OTOH, see too many dangers inherent in that stance, and believe God established one, universal, united Church anyway, and would have no reason for other, sometimes competing, churches.
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