SPLIT, & Edited Title : Purgatory:A Catholic Second Chance?

[Mickey]

I’m not an expert theologian.

Amen. Neither am I.

A Catholic who has studied the Orthodox view of the afterlife will see a completely complementary system which includes purgation, while an EO will reject that complementarity based on a very narrow view of the Catholic doctrine.

There is a big difference, my friend. Though there is theological speculation within Holy Orthodoxy which may or may not resemble the Catholic notion of purgatory, (and there has been a Western/Latin influence on some Orthodox theologians), it is not a defined doctrine that must be adhered to under pain of ex-communication.

 

[clmowry]

Ooh! You were ready for my response.

I’ve seen this rebuttal many times Chuckie.

There is no “doctrine” of purgatory in Holy Orthodoxy. There are theological opinions–such as toll houses–but no defined doctrines. It is sort of like the RCC theological opinion of Limbo.

Yep. That’s what I’m seeing.

The Confession of Dositheos produced by a Synod convened in Jerusalem in 1672 by the Patriarch Dositheos. There one reads:
“We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has wrought. Such as though involved in mortal sins have not departed in despair but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing any fruits of repentance – by pouring forth tears, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by showing by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction – of these and such like souls depart into Hades – and these endure the punishments due to their sins which they have committed.”

So it looks like the Orthodox are free to believe something very like purgatory takes place or that nothing takes place or anything in between.

(Is there a “Catechism of the Orthodox Church” out there somewhere?)

What’s more interesting me to me is the belief that apparently no one will actually be in “Heaven” until the second coming.

Am I reading this right?

Chuck

 

[Mickey]

Hey Mickey,

How are things? It’s been a while.

Your response is what I find so confusing. There are certain Catholic views of purgatory that would be acceptable opinions in Orthodoxy. So why the constant debate? It’s almost as if the fact that the Catholic Church has defined something as doctrine makes it instantly wrong in EO eyes, even if the EO themselves see it as an acceptable belief?

Hi Frances. It is Frances is it not?

Christ is Risen!

Please do not be offended. I mean no offense. Holy Orthodoxy is steeped in mystery. The Sacraments are Mysteries as you know. Holy Orthodxy does not define things that should remain a mystery. defining a holy mystery can tend to back you into a corner. Some things are meant to remain as Mysteries. I am not a fan of the Scholastic/Thomistic mind set of modern day Roman Catholicism. They attempt to define everything by Aristotlean philosophy. But you are correct Frances. I do not mean to be aggressive or to scandalize Latin Catholics. Perhaps I am too zealous. Our Churches have very much in common, but I disagree with Rome’s post schism dogmas. Many may not know it, but I have a great respect for the Latin Catholic Church. I think Pope JP2 and Benedict were/are two of the best Popes/bishops that Rome has had in a very long time. I credit the RCC for leading me on the path to the Eastern Catholic Church and then ultimately the Holy Orthodox Church.

I have always had a deep respect for you, Frances.
Peace and blessings to you.

Mickey

 

[Mickey]

So it looks like the Orthodox are free to believe something very like purgatory

I suppose. But they will not be juridically excommunicated if they do not.

 

[Fuerza]

Amen. Neither am I.
There is a big difference, my friend. Though there is theological speculation within Holy Orthodoxy which may or may not resemble the Catholic notion of purgatory, (and there has been a Western/Latin influence on some Orthodox theologians), it is not a defined doctrine that must be adhered to under pain of ex-communication.

That’s the whole point for me though. You admit that there is speculation that it is possible, but we are called heretics for firmly believing in it. I don’t see why the fact that we have chosen to formally define it in our official beliefs should be of concern to the East if it is seen as an acceptable hypothesis. The Latin culture in which the Western Church developed was a very juridical one, so naturally we like to have things laid out clearly. This is why Catholics often see the EO as nitpicking and playing semantics with things like purgatory and the assumption.

 

[Fuerza]

Hi Frances. It is Frances is it not?

Christ is Risen!

Please do not be offended. I mean no offense. Holy Orthodoxy is steeped in mystery. The Sacraments are Mysteries as you know. Holy Orthodxy does not define things that should remain a mystery. defining a holy mystery can tend to back you into a corner. Some things are meant to remain as Mysteries. I am not a fan of the Scholastic/Thomistic mind set of modern day Roman Catholicism. They attempt to define everything by Aristotlean philosophy. But you are correct Frances. I do not mean to be aggressive or to scandalize Latin Catholics. Perhaps I am too zealous. Our Churches have very much in common, but I disagree with Rome’s post schism dogmas. Many may not know it, but I have a great respect for the Latin Catholic Church. I think Pope JP2 and Benedict were/are two of the best Popes/bishops that Rome has had in a very long time. I credit the RCC for leading me on the path to the Eastern Catholic Church and then ultimately the Holy Orthodox Church.

I have always had a deep respect for you, Frances.
Peace and blessings to you.

Mickey

It’s actually Eric, but in all fairness Eric does look and sound a lot like Frances.

 

[Mickey]

It’s actually Eric, but in all fairness Eric does look and sound a lot like Frances.

Oh my, that’s right. I’m sorry. I had you confused with someone else.

Please substitute the word Eric for Frances.

 

[Mickey]

That’s the whole point for me though. You admit that there is speculation that it is possible, but we are called heretics for firmly believing in it. I don’t see why the fact that we have chosen to formally define it in our official beliefs should be of concern to the East if it is seen as an acceptable hypothesis. The Latin culture in which the Western Church developed was a very juridical one, so naturally we like to have things laid out clearly. This is why Catholics often see the EO as nitpicking and playing semantics with things like purgatory and the assumption.

There is a big difference Eric. The Assumption is Tradition of the undivided Church–the Orthodox celebrate the feast as The Dormition. Purgatory was defined in the 13th century (?) and there is not much support or Tradition for the definition.

Heretic is a harsh word.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Ooh! You were ready for my response.

I’ve seen this rebuttal many times Chuckie.

There is no “doctrine” of purgatory in Holy Orthodoxy. There are theological opinions–such as toll houses–but no defined doctrines. It is sort of like the RCC theological opinion of Limbo.

Oh there you are Mickey… I asked before but never got a response… You said in a different thread that you also prayed for the dead but not because of purgatory but for God to have mercy on their souls. So I’m honestly wondering a couple of things

1. do you believe someone who dies goes straight to heaven or hell?
2. if your answer to #1 is yes, than why would you need to pray for someone in heaven since they need no mercy or for someone in hell that can’t be helped?
3. if your answer to #1 is no, than where do they go?

SD

 

[Fuerza]

There is a big difference Eric. The Assumption is Tradition of the undivided Church–the Orthodox celebrate the feast as The Dormition. Purgatory was defined in the 13th century (?) and there is not much support or Tradition for the definition.

Heretic is a harsh word.

There is a lot of support for the tradition of purgatory, at least in the West, going back quite a bit before the 13th century. The Orthodox Jews also have a tradition which describes a form of purgatory. That is not the point however. You know well that on the old forums the EO often listed the Assumption as a supposed “Catholic innovation”, despite that fact that you all believe the same thing. It gets very confusing. And yes, I agree that heretic is a harsh word, but it was one that got thrown around quite freely on the old EC forum, and still occurs at oc.net.

 

[Mickey]

1. do you believe someone who dies goes straight to heaven or hell?

We do not make that judgement. It is a mystery to us.

1. if your answer to #1 is yes, than why would you need to pray for someone in heaven since they need no mercy or for someone in hell that can’t be helped?

God knows where to apply our prayer. There is no such thing as wasted prayer. There is no earthly time and space to God.

1. if your answer to #1 is no, than where do they go?

It is not our place to know–we are not heart readers.

 

[Mickey]

There is a lot of support for the tradition of purgatory, at least in the West, going back quite a bit before the 13th century.

I have seen no such support. I have seen a bit of creative interpretation.

You know well that on the old forums the EO often listed the Assumption as a supposed “Catholic innovation”, despite that fact that you all believe the same thing.

I believe the discrepancy lies in the Dormition (falling asleep). The Orthodox believe that Our Lady reposed and was assumed, bodily, into heaven. Roman Catholics do not have to believe that she reposed. Am I correct here?

And yes, I agree that heretic is a harsh word, but it was one that got thrown around quite freely on the old EC forum

I remember reading “heterodox”, but I do not recall the word “heretic” being thrown around much. If it was–people would get slapped with disciplinary action.

note: moderators are not very conducive to discussion about the old forum so I will not comment further.

 

[SD_Catholic]

We do not make that judgement. It is a mystery to us.
God knows where to apply our prayer. There is no such thing as wasted prayer. There is no earthly time and space to God.
It is not our place to know–we are not heart readers.

You are not answering my questions with these comments… I realize all these beginner level things you are telling me… I’m not asking you to judge someone’s soul.

You said you pray for the dead…Why do you pray for the souls of the dead? I’m just looking for a simple explanation of why you would do this… There’s no wrong answer… even if I don’t agree with you.

SD

 

[Mickey]

You are not answering my questions with these comments…

Yes I am. It is a mystery. We do not know where they go. It is not our judgement. We do not read hearts. We pray and leave it up to God.

I am sorry you do not like my answer. It is all you will get. You can call it “beginner level” or whatever. If you are not satisfied, join an Orthodox message board and ask your question.

You said you pray for the dead…Why do you pray for the souls of the dead?

We pray for the dead because we love them, and neither sin nor death can overcome that love we have for them in Christ: “Neither life nor death… shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:30). “Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:8). “Love will cover a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:18).

 

[SD_Catholic]

Mickey

Yes I am. It is a mystery. We do not know where they go. It is not our judgement. We do not read hearts. We pray and leave it up to God.

I know we do not read hearts… I did not make it seem like we could…

Are you saying you don’t know where they are… as in heaven, hell, ground, spirits walking earth, stuck in between somewhere, etc… if so than fine I will accept your answer.

If you are saying that you don’t know wether or not they’re in only heaven or only hell because we’re not the judge of their souls between only these 2 places than I’m affraid you still haven’t answered my question.

Mickey

We pray for the dead because we love them, and neither sin nor death can overcome that love we have for them in Christ: “Neither life nor death… shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:30). “Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:8). “Love will cover a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:18).

Of course we do… I’m wondering… do you believe a soul in heaven needs your prayer? or that your prayer can help a soul in hell?

I also pray for souls not knowing wether they’re in heaven, hell, or purgatory… but I believe the only ones that actually need my prayers are the ones in purgatory… but since I don’t know I pray for them anyway… I hope that if they are already in heaven that they will be able to pray for me instead.

SD

 

[Mickey]

Are you saying you don’t know where they are.

God knows. Only God knows their hearts.

I also pray for souls not knowing wether they’re in heaven, hell, or purgatory.

There is no such thing as purgatory.

I hope that if they are already in heaven that they will be able to pray for me instead.

Amen brother (or sister).

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Hey CentralFLJames, just exactly how do you release someone from purgatory? I don’t think I’ve read that in my Bible? I have read:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Why wasn’t Lazarus instructed to pray the rich man out of purgatory?

Do you have a response to the answers you’ve been given?

 

[SD_Catholic]

God knows. Only God knows their hearts.

There is no such thing as purgatory.

Amen brother (or sister).

Once again… I agree to the first part…

I realize you don’t think there is a purgatory or don’t want to call it that or whatever… I was just offering my view on the afterlife…

but you are not helping me understand the other questions that you didn’t answer… do you believe souls in heaven need your prayers and do you think your prayers can help souls in hell? Maybe you just don’t know so you just pray without knowing either way… if that’s what you are trying to say than I respect that, but I would like you to tell me since I also don’t know you’re heart…

yes it would be “brother”

SD

 

[Lampo]

There is no such thing as purgatory.

You might have seen this before, but I’m going to ask you anyway.

1. Are you perfect now?
2. Will you be perfect in Heaven? (assuming you make it there)
3. If you answered “no” to question #1 then “yes” to question #2, how did you become perfect upon entering Heaven?

I’m just trying to help you understand why Catholics know that Purgatory exists. If you already understand what the Church actually teaches but still disagree I’m fine with that.

 

[Mickey]

but you are not helping me understand the other questions that you didn’t answer.

It is a mystery. Holy Orthodoxy does not define such things. You will never understand unless you understand the concept of holy mystery. Just pray and stop trying to define everything. Rome has done enough of that. Sheesh. I do not think you are going to get the answer that you want from me because we are speaking two different languages here. I do not understand your question and you do not understand my answer. Sorry.