SPLIT: Eucharist representative not actual sacrifice

[ConstantineTG]

The Mass continues the sacrifice of the cross. Each Mass that is offered, repeats that sacrifice. What other elements are present?

clarification:
The sacrifice is not repeated at every Mass. There is only one eternal sacrifice on the cross. We extend it during Mass for all eternity.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I can’t believe no one caught this yet. The mass is not just a little old representation of the last supper. During the mass we celebrate and fully participate in Christ’s life, death and resurrection. The Holy Mass is Calvary all over again in the very true sense of the word. The disguise of bread that Jesus takes on after consecration is a blessing and a curse in a way. It is truly His body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist hidden by the appearance of bread. This makes it easier on us because we would feel sick if at consecration we could actually see the bread transform into the flesh of Christ, even more so to eat it. Christ is gracious in hiding this from us. But, because of this disguise it is also hard for some to realize what is truly taking place. If we could see Christ hanging on the cross at consecration, we wouldn’t be so keen to go running around to everyone around us. Do you think Mary, John, and Magdalene were chatting, shaking hands and sharing peace as they remained at the foot of the cross? Would you? I would be face down in his blood begging for mercy and praising God for His glory! Think about that next time you celebrate mass.

Um, sorry, no.

Hebrews 9:26

26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since (A)the foundation of the world; but now (B)once at (C)the consummation of the ages He has been (D)manifested to put away sin (E)by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jesus died ONCE for ALL (1 Peter 3:18). The sacrifice is over. It does not need to happen again and again to purify us. That is precisely what makes us different from the Jews. It is the whole purpose of Christ’s coming.

The mass is a gathering and celebration and a thanksgiving of the sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago, a celebration that we have TOGETHER as the living Church, the Body of Christ. The sign of peace reminds us of this.

 

[japhy]

The mass is a gathering and celebration and a thanksgiving of the sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago, a celebration that we have TOGETHER as the living Church, the Body of Christ.

The Mass is also the sacrifice of Christ re-presented. It’s not just a “gathering and celebration and thanksgiving”. It is “thanksgiving” in its most excellent form: the todah, the eucharistia. It is a true sacrifice, Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[AHapka]

Jesus died ONCE for ALL (1 Peter 3:18). The sacrifice is over. It does not need to happen again and again to purify us. That is precisely what makes us different from the Jews. It is the whole purpose of Christ’s coming.

I personally have always thought that the Mass is part of the same sacrifice, and is not a distinct, seperate event. Just because we see the crucifiction and Mass over 2,000 years apart does not mean that it isn’t part of the same event. I think it is.

Just my opinion though, and I welcome comments…

 

[johnnykins]

Um, sorry, no.

Hebrews 9:26

26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since (A)the foundation of the world; but now (B)once at (C)the consummation of the ages He has been (D)manifested to put away sin (E)by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jesus died ONCE for ALL (1 Peter 3:18). The sacrifice is over. It does not need to happen again and again to purify us. That is precisely what makes us different from the Jews. It is the whole purpose of Christ’s coming.

The mass is a gathering and celebration and a thanksgiving of the sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago, a celebration that we have TOGETHER as the living Church, the Body of Christ. The sign of peace reminds us of this.

With all due respect you are completely off base as to Catholic theology - as you have been before in other threads. Are you really Catholic? If so, you really need to learn about the faith. If not, you shouldn’t misrepresent yourself.

The Mass is the one and the same sacrifice as that on Calvary re-presented in a non-bloody manner. Christ’s sacrifice was an eternal sacrifice one time in history but made present on the altar in a timeless re-presentation of that same sacrifice. That is Catholic doctrine. What you submit is the classic Protestant understanding. Since several of you other posts also present a classic Protestant understanding of the faith, I can only conclude that for all your “thoughtfulness” you are woefully ignorant or really a Protestant at heart - or perhaps, just perhaps, something worse.

 

[johnnykins]

From the Catechism on the Vatican website

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.182** In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real.** This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover,** and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present**.183 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."184

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."185 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."186

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

**[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.1**87

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."188 Emphasis added

 

[Thoughtfulone]

With all due respect you are completely off base as to Catholic theology - as you have been before in other threads. Are you really Catholic? If so, you really need to learn about the faith. If not, you shouldn’t misrepresent yourself.

The Mass is the one and the same sacrifice as that on Calvary re-presented in a non-bloody manner. Christ’s sacrifice was an eternal sacrifice one time in history but made present on the altar in a timeless re-presentation of that same sacrifice. That is Catholic doctrine. What you submit is the classic Protestant understanding. Since several of you other posts also present a classic Protestant understanding of the faith, I can only conclude that for all your “thoughtfulness” you are woefully ignorant or really a Protestant at heart - or perhaps, just perhaps, something worse.

Really? Your arrogance is astounding. You said it yourself when you said that Mass is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ’s sacrifice. It is NOT the sacrifice itself, in the historical sense. THAT happened 2000 years ago, and that single sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse all sinners for all time, period. When the bread and wine turns into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, we are REMINDED of the sacrifice of Christ, just as He said we ought to be. That is not to say that the sacrifice is not an ongoing event in light of the history of the salvation of the world, mind you, but that the suffering and death of Christ on the cross are over in a literal sense. The continual turning of the bread and wine into His body and blood is the part of the sacrifice that is ongoing and that will continue to be ongoing until the end of the world. When I go to Mass, I am thankful for that, and I am thankful that I get to share the sign of peace with my Catholic brethren in a spirit of community, love and thanksgiving. For me, it is a joyful occasion. We have been cleansed and saved and deemed worthy of Christ. We should not be lying face down weeping in a pool of Christ’s blood like some here have suggested, but celebrating His love and devotion and sacrifice for us.

Before you insult MY understanding of the sacrifice of Christ, maybe YOU need to study Christianity in the light of Judaism and Judaic ritual sacrifice in order to understand the New Covenant better instead of simply regurgitating bits and pieces of the Catechism.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with a Catholic quoting the Bible. I would hardly call what I did “proof-texting”. That is a very straight-forward passage with a very straight-forward meaning, completely in context. Nothing I said contradicts Church teaching. Unless you actually believe that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was insufficient for our salvation and that He is literally suffering and dying over and over and over again every time a Mass is held in order to “re-up” what He did 2000 years ago? If that is the case, then we wouldn’t have needed Christ’s sacrifice at all. The lamb would have been sufficient for those purposes.

Before calling ME a bad Catholic, or a (gasp!) Protestant, or “something worse”, whatever that means, perhaps you should look at yourself and realize that YOU are the one at odds with the Church and her traditions here, not me.

 

[legendashmore]

Really? Your arrogance is astounding. You said it yourself when you said that Mass is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ’s sacrifice. It is NOT the sacrifice itself, in the historical sense.

Actually we are joining in on the original sacrifice. :clapping:

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Actually we are joining in on the original sacrifice. :clapping:

Yes. In the sense that Christ was present at the original sacrifice and is also present in the form of the Eucharist, we are a part of that same sacrifice along with the Apostles and every Catholic who has ever attended a mass. This is what makes the sign of peace so appropriate.

 

[Diem]

Yes. In the sense that Christ was present at the original sacrifice and is also present in the form of the Eucharist, we are a part of that same sacrifice along with the Apostles and every Catholic who has ever attended a mass. This is what makes the sign of peace so appropriate.

The Mass is the perpetual sacrifice of Christ.

 

[johnnykins]

Really? Your arrogance is astounding.

Perhaps, though i am not the one holding forth on interpreting the Gospel to suit my own “thoughtfulness.” Rather I support the Church in its understanding. Here is what you posted: “The sacrifice is over. It does not need to happen again and again to purify us.” Here is what the Church teaches: “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: ‘The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.’ ‘And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.’” Their is an old quip that it’s not so much that Protestants don’t want a Pope as much as they each want to be the Pope.

You said it yourself when you said that Mass is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ’s sacrifice. It is NOT the sacrifice itself, in the historical sense. THAT happened 2000 years ago, and that single sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse all sinners for all time, period. When the bread and wine turns into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, we are REMINDED of the sacrifice of Christ, just as He said we ought to be… Before you insult MY understanding of the sacrifice of Christ, maybe YOU need to study Christianity in the light of Judaism and Judaic ritual sacrifice in order to understand the New Covenant better instead of simply regurgitating bits and pieces of the Catechism.

Hmmm the Catechism and Church does just that. Perhaps you would care to actually discover what the Church teaches, since you have missed the boat - or perhaps left or never climbed on board the Bark of Peter?

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with a Catholic quoting the Bible. I would hardly call what I did “proof-texting”. That is a very straight-forward passage with a very straight-forward meaning, completely in context.

Almost the very definition of proof texting.

Nothing I said contradicts Church teaching. Unless you actually believe that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was insufficient for our salvation and that He is literally suffering and dying over and over and over again every time a Mass is held in order to “re-up” what He did 2000 years ago? If that is the case, then we wouldn’t have needed Christ’s sacrifice at all. The lamb would have been sufficient for those purposes.

And, yet you remain ignorant - or oddly disputatious, of Church teaching

Before calling ME a bad Catholic, or a (gasp!) Protestant, or “something worse”, whatever that means, perhaps you should look at yourself and realize that YOU are the one at odds with the Church and her traditions here, not me.

I don’t know, I’m the one quoting the catechism and you are the one dissing it! You tell me what that means!

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Perhaps, though i am not the one holding forth on interpreting the Gospel to suit my own “thoughtfulness.” Rather I support the Church in its understanding. Here is what you posted: “The sacrifice is over. It does not need to happen again and again to purify us.” Here is what the Church teaches: “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: ‘The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.’ ‘And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.’” Their is an old quip that it’s not so much that Protestants don’t want a Pope as much as they each want to be the Pope. Hmmm the Catechism and Church does just that. Perhaps you would care to actually discover what the Church teaches, since you have missed the boat - or perhaps left or never climbed on board the Bark of Peter?

Let me be more clear. What I meant was that the actual historical/physical death of Jesus on the cross is over. Christ is not killed again and again at each and every mass. He is risen and He is seated at the Right Hand of the Father. The Eucharist is an ongoing part of that sacrifice, as Christ’s body and blood are offered up to us at every mass by the grace of He who sent Him. I don’t think this understanding is in conflict with the teachings of the Church.

Not quite. Proof-texting takes words and phrases out of context, something I did not do. My quote was completely in context and it is a theme that is found and illustrated throughout the New Testament. I did not take a single phrase out of context and use it to suit my purposes as is done in proof-texting. There is nothing wrong with reading the Bible and taking one’s own lessons from it. Jesus taught in parables specifically so that the average person could understand the will of God. If my understanding of something contradicts church teaching, then I will of course commit to further study of the matter, but otherwise, I take great pleasure in reading the Bible because God speaks to me and everyone else who is willing to hear Him through His Word. But then, who needs the Bible when you have the Catechism?

I don’t know, I’m the one quoting the catechism and you are the one dissing it! You tell me what that means!

Don’t get me wrong, I am not dissing the catechism. It is a great tool and is integral in our understanding of the Catholic Church and her teachings. But it is not scripture, and that’s o.k.

[/QUOTE]

 

[wisdomseeker]

Really? Your arrogance is astounding. You said it yourself when you said that Mass is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ’s sacrifice. It is NOT the sacrifice itself, in the historical sense. THAT happened 2000 years ago, and that single sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse all sinners for all time, period. When the bread and wine turns into the flesh and blood of** Jesus Christ, we are REMINDED of the sacrifice of Christ, just as He said we ought to be. That is not to say that the sacrifice is not an ongoing event in light of the history of the salvation of the world, mind you, but that the suffering and death of Christ on the cross are over in a literal sense. ** The continual turning of the bread and wine into His body and blood is the part of the sacrifice that is ongoing and that will continue to be ongoing until the end of the world. When I go to Mass, I am thankful for that, and I am thankful that I get to share the sign of peace with my Catholic brethren in a spirit of community, love and thanksgiving. For me, it is a joyful occasion. We have been cleansed and saved and deemed worthy of Christ. We should not be lying face down weeping in a pool of Christ’s blood like some here have suggested, but celebrating His love and devotion and sacrifice for us.

Before you insult MY understanding of the sacrifice of Christ, maybe YOU need to study Christianity in the light of Judaism and Judaic ritual sacrifice in order to understand the New Covenant better instead of simply regurgitating bits and pieces of the Catechism.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with a Catholic quoting the Bible. I would hardly call what I did “proof-texting”. That is a very straight-forward passage with a very straight-forward meaning, completely in context. Nothing I said contradicts Church teaching. Unless you actually believe that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was insufficient for our salvation and that He is literally suffering and dying over and over and over again every time a Mass is held in order to “re-up” what He did 2000 years ago? If that is the case, then we wouldn’t have needed Christ’s sacrifice at all. The lamb would have been sufficient for those purposes.

Before calling ME a bad Catholic, or a (gasp!) Protestant, or “something worse”, whatever that means, perhaps you should look at yourself and realize that YOU are the one at odds with the Church and her traditions here, not me.

but St Paul said that those who are being disobedient to the Faith are sacrificing Christ all over again. i think we can see this happening today. so, his sufferings has not ended like you are saying here.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

but St Paul said that those who are being disobedient to the Faith are sacrificing Christ all over again. i think we can see this happening today. so, his sufferings has not ended like you are saying here.

I would have to look into it more, but I can certainly see how Christ would and does suffer when we sin. Is this suffering physical as it was on the cross? I don’t think so. But then again, I would really need to study it in depth and read the corresponding scripture to understand it better.

 

[JimG]

Yes, it’s the same sacrifice. The one sacrifice made once for all by Jesus, and made present in every Mass.

It’s not only the same sacrifice, it’s the same Jesus. Everyone receiving the Eucharist receives one and the same Jesus, not a different Jesus, not a Jesus multiplied. Because he has but one body, and it is that one body that we each receive, in receiving Him, we are also in communion with one another, as well as being joined to his one sacrifice.

 

[legendashmore]

Paragraph 1330:
The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, “sacrifice of praise,” spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used, since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

Paragraph1382:
The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us.

I think those quotes pretty much sum it all. We are at the original, “one sacrifice of Christ the Savior” which is “perpetuated”, by the mass.

 

[Philthy]

]Your arrogance is astounding.

And your pride? Breathlesss…

You said it yourself when you said that Mass is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ’s sacrifice. It is NOT the sacrifice itself, in the historical sense.

It is not the Crucifixion, friend, but it is the absolutely the same sacrifice.

THAT happened 2000 years ago

The Crucifixion happened 2000 years ago and was an historic event. The eternal sacrifice which occured is ongoing throughout history.

that single sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse all sinners for all time, period.

Sure, but when does the sacrifice ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH the forgiveness of sinners? At one point in time or throughout all time? It remains effective throughout all time. It is…an eternal sacrifice which occured in time but which transcends time.

When the bread and wine turns into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, we are REMINDED of the sacrifice of Christ, just as He said we ought to be. That is not to say that the sacrifice is not an ongoing event in light of the history of the salvation of the world, mind you, but that the suffering and death of Christ on the cross are over in a literal sense.

Christ’s Crucifixion is over, what’s your point?

The continual turning of the bread and wine into His body and blood is the part of the sacrifice that is ongoing and that will continue to be ongoing until the end of the world. When I go to Mass, I am thankful for that, and I am thankful that I get to share the sign of peace with my Catholic brethren in a spirit of community, love and thanksgiving. For me, it is a joyful occasion. We have been cleansed and saved and deemed worthy of Christ. We should not be lying face down weeping in a pool of Christ’s blood like some here have suggested, but celebrating His love and devotion and sacrifice for us.

Im not sure how you can possibly ignore the fact that it was your sins which caused Christ to be crucified. While it is true that it is an event to have joy over, it is also an event which will also yield a degree of remorse, since we caused it through our sin. Sin, which most of us still wallow in daily. There is room for joy and remorse depending upon one’s particular spiritual state. Generally I am solemn during the Eucharistic Liturgy, but joyful at the completion of the Mass. One closing from Mass sums this up well: Father you have called us to share in the one bread and one cup and so become one in Christ. Help us to live in Him and to bear fruit rejoicing that he has redeemed the world." Im paraphrasing…

Before you insult MY understanding of the sacrifice of Christ, maybe YOU need to study Christianity in the light of Judaism and Judaic ritual sacrifice in order to understand the New Covenant better instead of simply regurgitating bits and pieces of the Catechism.

Spoken with true love.

Nothing I said contradicts Church teaching. Unless you actually believe that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was insufficient for our salvation and that He is literally suffering and dying over and over and over again every time a Mass is held in order to “re-up” what He did 2000 years ago?

I think the term is to “make present” what He accomplished and to apply it to the present. To re-present it, if you will, to make it efficacious in our time and circumstance. Unless, of course, you believe that we are all saved irrevocably because Christ died 2000 years ago on our behalf?

Peace be with you.

 

[legendashmore]

:bluelite: HEY Remember to be charitable. If you want to criticize someone’s idea, that is okay, but remember to to be charitable while doing it. :bluelite:

:tsktsk:NO NAME CALLING:tsktsk:

 

[Thoughtfulone]

And your pride? Breathlesss…QUOTE]

How so?

It is not the Crucifixion