SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

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newbie1234 said:
Jonathan you need to get a little better versed in biblical truths in you want to challenge people like this. I never said every prophetic book has dual fulfillment. Come on are we going to argue like 5 year olds. You ca go back to the original post and see what I wrote. Let’s have a mature discussion here if possible. Are you trying to intimidate me or something?
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I quoted your original post. In Catholic thought, a scandal brings shame upon the Church, her founder, her people, when someone asserts something contrary to scripture and Tradition.

Your original post did just that.

You asked me to “go back to the original post and see what I wrote,” and I did.

What you said about Mary and “the great deception” is scandalous and uncharitable to us Catholics.
 
newbie1234 said:
No. Satan is the deciever
People who venerate the apparition are the decieved. weather they are catholic or not
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And according to all the non-Catholic posters about Fatima and other Marian apparitions: only Catholics venerate them. Or haven’t you noticed that?

Ergo, in their view and yours, only Catholics are the deceived.
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JonathanKinsman said:
We don’t either, Newbie. If someone asks us something specific, most us will read our CCC and our Bible.

But your words remain: you did not modify your original statement. You said what you said: all prophetic books (this has to include Revelation, no?) have dual fulfillment. Then you modified that to mean DUAL in the FUTURE.

That’s the problem.
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Let me make the statement again
Prophetic books have dual fulfillment.
Not All prophetic books have dual fulfillment but some do.
Please excuse the breakdown in communication.
An example of dual fulfillment in prophecy.
The 300 prophecies of a coming messiah in the ot have been fulfilled once in 32ad. We are awaiting the second coming or second fulfillment of those prophecies in the ot in the near future. I don’t know how to clarify this any further
 
JonathanKinsman said:
And according to all the non-Catholic posters about Fatima and other Marian apparitions: only Catholics venerate them. Or haven’t you noticed that?

Ergo, in their view and yours, only Catholics are the deceived.
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I don’t think it is only catholics but if that’s the way you want to say it ok
 
JonathanKinsman said:
The canon assertion, Newbie, the canon assertion.

Also, where is your answer to that 2 Timothy cite?

I read it a zillion times and couldn’t find any justification (I used my original KJV, my Douay, My RSV and RSV-CA [they’re identical!], my NAB and my New Jerusalem) for your silly assertion about DCOTRINE COMING FROM THE BIBLE.

Where is it now???

:banghead: doctrine assertion :banghead: canon assertion

:banghead: dual fulfillment of prophetic books assertion

:banghead: using scripture without thinking

I gotta take an excedrin!
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Newbie,

All of us Catholics would be happy if you would just stop the proselytizing for a few minutes and answer your assertions
  1. That 2 Timothy 3:16 supports your view that “doctrine” comes “solely” from the Bible
  2. That the “canon” stopped with the death of St John. (where is that is scripture, again?)
  3. Fessing up on the “dual fulfillment” and twice in the future statement. IN OTHER WORDS, something along the lines of “i was mistaken.” or “oops! darn computer keys” or “hey, I tried to sneak one past you ol’ Catholics but ya got me!”
Try number 1 for starters.
 
Newbie, you are deceived. Satan is soooo happy to have you as a soldier. First, he had to get you to question the faith, which you did. Then you left the church, but Satan isn’t done just yet. He wants you not only not support the Church, but to attack it. So you did. You joined another denomination and began your deceptive propaganda. Satan has done it to you, now you’re doing it to us. The “happiness” you feel when you attend a protestant service is a deceptive emotion that comes from Satan. He wants to keep you deceived, because the less deception you have, the more truth you have, and therefore you’d want to go to the source of that truth, the Catholic Church. Satan hates Catholics because we love Jesus and we are His body. Why aren’t the other major religions being attacked like we are? We’ve done nothing, and yet we receive the blows. We are truly biblically based because we are doing what Jesus told us to do, turn the other cheek. So we are. We don’t fight back, we sit back. Our suffering is redemptive, and done at your hands. Do not think I am razzing you or putting you down. In fact, I am praying for you, and yes, the Saints and Mary will help me. I will pray the rosary for you, I will keep you in my mind when the offertory prayers are being said, I will remember you when I receive Christ’s body, and how sad I am that you refuse the same grace. You are loved by us Catholics, but you hate us, even if you don’t know it, probably because of the deception. You have done a good thing however. My faith is now stronger because of you, as I am reminded that the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against me or my Church. Thank you and God Bless!👍
 
newbie1234 said:
Ask God for revelation. Get into a Bible study. Invite Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. Repent of your sins. If you do those things you will be born again! Once you are born again, the Holy Spirit will convict you and you will not pray to dead people any more

. 🙂
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Here you are again, giving the lie to “only those Catholics who pray to statues” argument.
 
newbie1234 said:
The Bible is the infallible Word of God and I take it literally from Genesis to Revelation. The tradition of the Catholic Church changes with each pope and ecunenical council. How can it be infallible if it changes all the time?
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Here, Newbie, you take the Bible “literally.”
 
newbie1234 said:
That is incorrect. Prophetic books have what is called dual fulfillment. Which means the prophecy will be fulfilled twice both in the future. Not once in the past and once in the future.
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And here, Newbie, you contend something NOT literally in the Bible.

Can’t have it both ways.
 
LilyM said:
Yes but you’re missing the glaringly obvious - it says scripture is profitable, not that scripture ALONE is enough.

Why did the Ethiopian ask for Phillip’s help with interpreting the OT if this were the case? Why did Peter warn against those who were misinterpreting Paul’s words if they ALONE were good enough?
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Maybe you don’t have a bible around so I will type out 2tim3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17that the man of God may be COMPLETE, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

The verse says The man of God can be COMPLETE and thoroughly equipped by using scripture.
It does not say that the man of God needs anything else to be complete. Am I reading something into this verse that is not there. Or is it pretty plain to understand?
 
dbacks5439 said:
Newbie, you are deceived. Satan is soooo happy to have you as a soldier. First, he had to get you to question the faith, which you did. Then you left the church, but Satan isn’t done just yet. He wants you not only not support the Church, but to attack it. So you did. You joined another denomination and began your deceptive propaganda. Satan has done it to you, now you’re doing it to us. The “happiness” you feel when you attend a protestant service is a deceptive emotion that comes from Satan. He wants to keep you deceived, because the less deception you have, the more truth you have, and therefore you’d want to go to the source of that truth, the Catholic Church. Satan hates Catholics because we love Jesus and we are His body. Why aren’t the other major religions being attacked like we are? We’ve done nothing, and yet we receive the blows. We are truly biblically based because we are doing what Jesus told us to do, turn the other cheek. So we are. We don’t fight back, we sit back. Our suffering is redemptive, and done at your hands. Do not think I am razzing you or putting you down. In fact, I am praying for you, and yes, the Saints and Mary will help me. I will pray the rosary for you, I will keep you in my mind when the offertory prayers are being said, I will remember you when I receive Christ’s body, and how sad I am that you refuse the same grace. You are loved by us Catholics, but you hate us, even if you don’t know it, probably because of the deception. You have done a good thing however. My faith is now stronger because of you, as I am reminded that the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against me or my Church. Thank you and God Bless!👍
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And thank you also for the prayers.May God Bless you inall your endeavors.
 
JonathanKinsman said:
And here, Newbie, you contend something NOT literally in the Bible.

Can’t have it both ways.
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Jonathan I don’t know what you are driving at.
if you ask me a clear concise question I will answer it.
You posts are hard to understand.
 
newbie1234 said:
Maybe you don’t have a bible around so I will type out 2tim3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE,

for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17that the man of God may be COMPLETE, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

The verse says The man of God can be COMPLETE and thoroughly equipped by using scripture.
It does not say that the man of God needs anything else to be complete. Am I reading something into this verse that is not there. Or is it pretty plain to understand?
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Wow, that new verse talks about “good work” as a measure of one’s faith! Isn’t that contrary to Protestant teaching about Sola Fide??

Newbie, look at the simple meaning of the words. The LITERAL meaning that you so cherish: “and is profitable for doctrine.”

It does not say “and is complete for doctrine.”

It does not say “and will be only used for doctrine years from now when the christians assemble their bible and include this letter as proof that only scripture can be used to determine doctrine.”

Wipe the scales from your eyes, Newbie.

You are doing what you accuse us Catholics of doing: changing scripture to create doctrine.
 
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JonathanKinsman:
Newbie,

All of us Catholics would be happy if you would just stop the proselytizing for a few minutes and answer your assertions
  1. That 2 Timothy 3:16 supports your view that “doctrine” comes “solely” from the Bible
  2. That the “canon” stopped with the death of St John. (where is that is scripture, again?)
  3. Fessing up on the “dual fulfillment” and twice in the future statement. IN OTHER WORDS, something along the lines of “i was mistaken.” or “oops! darn computer keys” or “hey, I tried to sneak one past you ol’ Catholics but ya got me!”
Try number 1 for starters.

see post 636
 
newbie1234 said:
Newbie,
All of us Catholics would be happy if you would just stop the proselytizing for a few minutes and answer your assertions
  1. That 2 Timothy 3:16 supports your view that “doctrine” comes “solely” from the Bible
  2. That the “canon” stopped with the death of St John. (where is that is scripture, again?)
  3. Fessing up on the “dual fulfillment” and twice in the future statement. IN OTHER WORDS, something along the lines of “i was mistaken.” or “oops! darn computer keys” or “hey, I tried to sneak one past you ol’ Catholics but ya got me!”
Try number 1 for starters.
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Newbie, see the posting two back.
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newbie1234 said:
Newbie,
All of us Catholics would be happy if you would just stop the proselytizing for a few minutes and answer your assertions
  1. That 2 Timothy 3:16 supports your view that “doctrine” comes “solely” from the Bible
  2. That the “canon” stopped with the death of St John. (where is that is scripture, again?)
  3. Fessing up on the “dual fulfillment” and twice in the future statement. IN OTHER WORDS, something along the lines of “i was mistaken.” or “oops! darn computer keys” or “hey, I tried to sneak one past you ol’ Catholics but ya got me!”
Try number 1 for starters.
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Post 636 does NOT address 2 and 3, above, and only adds line 17 to the 2 Timothy quote.

You contend that doctrine comes “solely” (YOUR EXACT WORD) from scripture only.

I showed you that ‘scripture’ at the time 2 Timothy was written was OT or Jewish scripture. There was NOT any Bible being circulated prior to about 400 AD!

I asked how “profitable for doctrine” can be twisted to mean “complete for doctrine.”

You AVOIDED answering that one. WHY? Because there is NO scriptural basis for your goofy sola scriptura assertion.

Saying it over and over does not make it true, Newbie.
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newbie1234 said:
Jonathan I don’t know what you are driving at.
if you ask me a clear concise question I will answer it.
You posts are hard to understand.
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Attention all readers! Newbie thinks I am hard to understand.
I apologize if this is so.

If there is something I am not saying clearly, please chime in and clarify for me and for Newbie.

Thanks and God bless you all!

Jonathan
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JonathanKinsman:
Post 636 does NOT address 2 and 3, above, and only adds line 17 to the 2 Timothy quote.

You contend that doctrine comes “solely” (YOUR EXACT WORD) from scripture only.

I showed you that ‘scripture’ at the time 2 Timothy was written was OT or Jewish scripture. There was NOT any Bible being circulated prior to about 400 AD!

I asked how “profitable for doctrine” can be twisted to mean “complete for doctrine.”

You AVOIDED answering that one. WHY? Because there is NO scriptural basis for your goofy sola scriptura assertion.

Saying it over and over does not make it true, Newbie.

Are you a teenager by any chance?
If so it would explain alot.
For answer to #3 go to post 628
 
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