SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

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Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: “As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire.” Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, “He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” Christ is the tangible, divine “icon” of the unseen, infinite God.

We read that when the magi were “going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh” (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or “fish emblem.”

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.

Idolatry Condemned by the Church

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, “[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.”

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
 
Manny, it is common knowledge the Pope John paul II was the Marion Pope. He told of his beliefs that Mary redirected the bullet from the assasin that was meant for his heart. He referred to Mary as co-redeemer. Mary has no power to save you. Only Jesus. Whoever thinks Mary can answer prayers and offer salvation is being deceived. Even if he’s THE POPE.
 
Manny, it is common knowledge the Pope John paul II was the Marion Pope. He told of his beliefs that Mary redirected the bullet from the assasin that was meant for his heart. He referred to Mary as co-redeemer. Mary has no power to save you. Only Jesus. Whoever thinks Mary can answer prayers and offer salvation is being deceived. Even if he’s THE POPE.
Common knowledge but it was not an official document, nor did the Catholic Church made an official proclamation of the title of Mary, Co-Redeemer, and Mediatrix.

All official teachings of the Catholic Church is stated either in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the Magisterium Document. So far you are only going by what you heard.
 
I would say that any person who makes a statue of a woman, be it Our Lady of Fatima, or The Queen of Heaven, or The Lady of All Nations, and bows down and venerates that statue, and says prayers to that statue, is not saved. That means they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and they are part of the great deception. Sorry.
(Edited by Moderator. 1st Peter 3:14-17)

No Christian, Catholic or not, who is capable of rubbing two brain cells together ever prays TO any statue or image - not of Christ himself, and most certainly not of Mary or any saint.

As Manny has so ably pointed out, statues and the like are visual aids which we use in prayer, much as most any Christian might use a cross, a crucifix, or a picture or statue of Christ.

In fact they are exactly like the carved cherubim and other representations that God himself ordered made to decorate the temple in Jerusalem - aids to prayer and contemplation.
 
Manny,I can hardly read as fast as you type!
I also want to thank you for serving our country.
Take a look at acts 10:25-26.
I don’t mean to get anybody all riled up. The fact of the matter is I don’t think all Catholics are saved. I worry about you folks. Read the bible. Test all things. God Bless.
 
Manny,I can hardly read as fast as you type!
I also want to thank you for serving our country.
Take a look at acts 10:25-26.
I don’t mean to get anybody all riled up. The fact of the matter is I don’t think all Catholics are saved. I worry about you folks. Read the bible. Test all things. God Bless.
The Catholic Church has spent 2000 years testing all things - including plenty that you’ve never even thought of. I’d trust its collective wisdom over yours any day. God bless you too.
 
Manny,I can hardly read as fast as you type!
I also want to thank you for serving our country.
Take a look at acts 10:25-26.
I don’t mean to get anybody all riled up. The fact of the matter is I don’t think all Catholics are saved. I worry about you folks. Read the bible. Test all things. God Bless.
I read the Bible, but I don’t read the Bible by self-interpreting it myself. I read it in the context of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I read Act 10-25. "When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”

Peter is right for telling Cornelius not to worship him. With Saints and Mary, we do not worship them. Even in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we are call to worship Jesus Christ not the Saints.

We honor the Saints and Mary because they are part of the Communion of Saints. We all pray for one another. How many times have you ask a fellow Christian to pray for you? It is the same we ask for the saints.

The saints and Mary cannot save us only God alone can do that. The saints can pray for us. Saints maybe dead but they are alive in Christ once they go to the next life. They are more alive that we are. St. Paul said, “We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.”

God is also God of the Living, not the dead. So the saints can hear our prayers. We are alive in Christ. So venerating the Saints is pleasing to God.

Welcome, I am only serving my country only for a little while.
 
Come on Lily,
Nastiness is unbecoming to a Christian.
I may only have 2 brain cells to rub together, but with those two little guys I want to encourage you to read the Bible. Ask God for revelation. Get into a Bible study. Invite Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. Repent of your sins. If you do those things you will be born again! Once you are born again, the Holy Spirit will convict you and you will not pray to dead people any more. 🙂
 
She is born again like the rest of us Catholics. Through Baptism, we are born again.
 
I can only give testimony to what happened to me. I was Catholic for 22 years. To me the faith was dead. It was just a bunch of meaningless ceremony. My mind wandered in church. I dreaded going. It wasn’t until I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and repented on my sins that my faith came alive. Now it’s totally different. I wish everyone could experience the love I feel. Now I can’t wait to go to church!
 
(Edited by Moderator)

Who said Christians who died in Christ are dead? Do you not know that God is God of the Living and not the dead?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
 
I can only give testimony to what happened to me. I was Catholic for 22 years. To me the faith was dead. It was just a bunch of meaningless ceremony. My mind wandered in church. I dreaded going. It wasn’t until I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and repented on my sins that my faith came alive. Now it’s totally different. I wish everyone could experience the love I feel. Now I can’t wait to go to church!
I been Catholic for 31 yrs. Your faith was dead because you did not find the center of Catholicism who is Jesus. We Catholics believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I don’t believe the Eucharist is Symbolic. Just as John 6 states, Jesus is the Bread of Life, and we must eat his flesh and drink his blood.

That’s what the Catholic Church have. I doubt your testimony bears much Truth, since 1 Tim 3:15 states, that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth not the Bible.

Jesus build his Church upon St. Peter, and left One Church. In 107 AD. St. Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of St. John the Apostle), called Christ’s Church Catholic (read my signature). The Catholic Church is Apostolic, meaning its teachings have been handed down to us from the Apostles to their successors.
 
I was baptized as a baby. Confirmed at 12. Did I have the understanding of sin at that age? I just went along with the program at my Catholic school. It wasn’t until my thirties, when I started getting into the Word, that I learned about the sin issue and salvation. I wonder how many 12 year olds can grasp that?
I can’t judge weather anyone is saved.
But I can recognize the gifts of the Spirit.
 
I was baptized as a baby. Confirmed at 12. Did I have the understanding of sin at that age? I just went along with the program at my Catholic school. It wasn’t until my thirties, when I started getting into the Word, that I learned about the sin issue and salvation. I wonder how many 12 year olds can grasp that?
I can’t judge weather anyone is saved.
But I can recognize the gifts of the Spirit.
I was baptized Catholic as an infant, confirmed at age 7-8. I was not catechized well by my parents. At 16 I read old Baltimore Catholic Catechism in a Question and Answer Format. I practice my faith.

There were parts in my life when I drifted away from my faith. I was pro-choice at one point but change my position and became pro-life after watching an Anti-abortion video that show how abortion is done on ultrasound.

I then practice my faith during my college years and during the first 2 yrs in the Army. At 3rd year in the Army, I partied with friends and didn’t go to Church anymore. I was party animal. I didn’t get back into faith until my deployment in Iraq. I started practicing my faith as a Catholic. Then I was challenged by an Evangelical Christians about my Catholic faith, and I started researching.

I went to Catholic.com and learn how to defend my faith. I also look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and tracts on Biblical Defense of Catholic Church from John Martignoli website Bible Christian Society. I also bought conversion story from former Protestant ministers turn Catholic.

The early Christians were Catholics, and their practices are Catholics. I find nothing in Catholicism that is against Scripture. I have look at the Protestant arguments but they appear very weak to me and unconvincing.

The problems I have with Protestantism is the lack of Blessed Sacrament, and the two doctrine of Faith Alone and Bible Alone. I find those doctrines not supported by Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition. I don’t agree with the OSAS either since it cheapen Christianity and opens doors for a Christian to commit sin.
 
Come on Lily,
Nastiness is unbecoming to a Christian.
I may only have 2 brain cells to rub together, but with those two little guys I want to encourage you to read the Bible. Ask God for revelation. Get into a Bible study. Invite Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. Repent of your sins. If you do those things you will be born again! Once you are born again, the Holy Spirit will convict you and you will not pray to dead people any more. 🙂
And you think it’s not nasty to call Fatima a deception of Satan???

Or to tell me that I’m fruitlessly praying to dead people? When my Bible (which I can assure you I’ve read and studied pretty much from cover to cover) tells me that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all God’s righteous servants are living and not dead, and being living are able to intercede for me just as well as you can if I ask them to.

And you think it’s not nasty of you to telling me that I need to repent of my sins, as if I’m somehow ignorant of that fact, when every Mass that I attend every DAY begins with the words ‘I confess’ and/or the words LORD HAVE MERCY??? Do you say those words and mean them that often?
 
Well Manny, I guess if you think the Catholic Church is truth and the Bible is not The Truth, it explains alot about your theology. Keep reading, ask God for His divine revelation. If you think that the Pope is equal with God, or he speaks to God and is infallible,You are being deceived. The pope is a man. Look at church history. There have been so many abominations commited by popes through the centuries. I don’t know how you can think those men are an extension of God.
 
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