SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[Mannyfit75]

Well Manny, I guess if you think the Catholic Church is truth and the Bible is not The Truth, it explains alot about your theology. Keep reading, ask God for His divine revelation. If you think that the Pope is equal with God, or he speaks to God and is infallible,You are being deceived. The pope is a man. Look at church history. There have been so many abominations commited by popes through the centuries. I don’t know how you can think those men are an extension of God.

What are you talking about? I believe in Sacred Scripture (Bible) and Sacred Tradition as the Word of God. I also believed in the Magisterium of the Church.

I don’t believe in Scripture Alone, or Faith Alone.

I do not think the Pope is equal to God. I believe he is the Prime Minister of God. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven just as it said, in Matthew 16:17-18. I read Church History and it is Catholic.

There were only few bad Popes, of the 267 Popes we have total. The total number of bad Popes are like 12. The Pope is infallible when he teaches ‘ex-cathedra’ or from the Chair of Peter. This infallible means he is free of from error when teaching moral and faith issues.

It does not mean he is sinless, or incapable of not committing sin. Jesus promised. “The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” This means the Pope cannot teach error in terms of moral and faith. Jesus did not promise his Apostles or their successor that they would be preserve from sinning.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And you think it’s not nasty to call Fatima a deception of Satan???

Or to tell me that I’m fruitlessly praying to dead people? When my Bible (which I can assure you I’ve read and studied pretty much from cover to cover) tells me that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all God’s righteous servants are living and not dead, and being living are able to intercede for me just as well as you can if I ask them to.

And you think it’s not nasty of you to telling me that I need to repent of my sins, as if I’m somehow ignorant of that fact, when every Mass that I attend every DAY begins with the words ‘I confess’ and/or the words LORD HAVE MERCY??? Do you say those words and mean them that often?

If the Saints are dead, I wonder how could Moses and Elijah have appeared to Jesus during his transfiguration. Truly they are alive and not dead.

 

[newbie1234]

Lilly Read Rev 17,
I don’t mean to offend you. But consider this, what if the apparitions of this woman all over the world ARE from satan? Who are you worshipping?The fatima apparition along with all the others are making Mary The Queen of Heaven.Read Jer 44:17-22

 

[LilyM]

Well Manny, I guess if you think the Catholic Church is truth and the Bible is not The Truth, it explains alot about your theology. Keep reading, ask God for His divine revelation. If you think that the Pope is equal with God, or he speaks to God and is infallible,You are being deceived. The pope is a man. Look at church history. There have been so many abominations commited by popes through the centuries. I don’t know how you can think those men are an extension of God.

Hang on, don’t you believe that God speaks to YOU and that you also speak to him (it’s called prayer) :ehh: and to all of us through the Scriptures?

And that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is iin at least some ares infallible (free of error) if you read it correctly, regardless of whether or not you’re a sinner.

As we all are sinners, and as all the Apostles were and nonetheless could preach His word?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Lilly Read Rev 17,
I don’t mean to offend you. But consider this, what if the apparitions of this woman all over the world ARE from satan? Who are you worshipping?The fatima apparition along with all the others are making Mary The Queen of Heaven.Read Jer 44:17-22

Nope, she isn’t. The Mary in Fatima spread the message of conversion of sinners, and ask all of us to return to God. She is not the Queen of Heaven from Jer 44:17-22.

We Catholics called Mary, Queen of Heaven because in Revelation 12, she is the woman clothed with the sun. This woman gave birth to male child who is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; who is Jesus Christ.

Second, Jesus is from the Davidic lineage. In the OT, Jewish Kings have many wives, and they could not be made queens. Instead, the mother of the King is made Queen. Since Jesus is the King of the New Covenant, he made his own mother, Mary as the Queen.

 

[newbie1234]

The Bible is the infallible Word of God and I take it literally from Genesis to Revelation. The tradition of the Catholic Church changes with each pope and ecunenical council. How can it be infallible if it changes all the time?

 

[LilyM]

Lilly Read Rev 17,
I don’t mean to offend you. But consider this, what if the apparitions of this woman all over the world ARE from satan? Who are you worshipping?The fatima apparition along with all the others are making Mary The Queen of Heaven.Read Jer 44:17-22

I’ve read it several times (you really think I’ve never taken the odd glance at the Bible in my life?)

No-one worships the apparitions. They worship God, and give respect and honour to Mary because she is Christ’s mother and first and greatest of his disciples and servants. I’m not even behaving differently because of any apparitions! I don’t pray the Hail Mary or the Rosary because of Fatima, I pray it because half the thing is word for word from the Bible and all of it is entirely Biblical! And because it’s a meditation on various events in the life of Christ.

I don’t believe in the Church’s Marian dogmas (and not all the beliefs you’ve mentioned are required dogma either) because of the apparitions, neither does the church use any apparition in support of same, it’s all based on sound reasoning about beliefs that have been held by Christians since the early days of the Church - about Mary AND about the teaching authority of the Church, against which the gates of hell are not supposed to prevail, remember?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Bible is the infallible Word of God and I take it literally from Genesis to Revelation. The tradition of the Catholic Church changes with each pope and ecunenical council. How can it be infallible if it changes all the time?

It never changed. The only thing that change are disciples or practices. For example prior to Second Vatican Council II, we say the Mass in Latin and the priest face the alter. After Second Vatican II, priest now face the parishers during the concretion.

Doctrines are defined when our belief is challenge. Early in our Church history, Jesus Christ’s divinity was put into question. The bishop Arius believed that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally.

A Council was gathered together and the Council of Nicea condemned Arianism. It is in this council we came up with the terminology “Trinity.” It describe God as One God, Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

The word Trinity itself is not Scripture but it was defined when Christ’s divinity was put into question.

We did not have a list of Books of the Bible until 382 A.D in the Council of Rome which made a list of 72 Books of the OT, and 27 Books of the NT. That took almost 400 yrs to get the Bible put together. Protestants in the 1517 remove the Septugint from their books and only had 66 books instead of 72 OT text.

 

[newbie1234]

I would love to send you the dvd ‘Messages From Heaven’ It is all about these apparitions Guadalupe, Knock, Medjogorge, fatima, father Gobbi, and all the rest of them. They all seem to take the glory of the cross and salvation from Jesus and somehow give Mary the power by making her co-redeemer and mediator. If you don’t see this as taking glory away from God I don’t know what else to say. Good luck.

 

[Eireann]

I know for a fact that Pope John Paul II called Mary Coredemptrix and Mediatrix. If you would like to learn more about these apparitions and the Catholic response to them check out the dvd ‘Messages From Heaven.’ It’s produced by Calvary Chapel.
Jn 3:16 Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved
1Cor 12:10 discernment of sprits

Oh boy ! lol been on that website before, it’s a joke, if you believe it you’ll believe anything.

The Angel had no problem with the words, nor Elizabeth.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

And the Church added the last bit, by authority of the “Keys”

And if you were a Catholic worshipping Mary, then you were in error, we do not worship Mary, but the Bible tells us to honour our father and mother.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I would love to send you the dvd ‘Messages From Heaven’ It is all about these apparitions Guadalupe, Knock, Medjogorge, fatima, father Gobbi, and all the rest of them. They all seem to take the glory of the cross and salvation from Jesus and somehow give Mary the power by making her co-redeemer and mediator. If you don’t see this as taking glory away from God I don’t know what else to say. Good luck.

Medjojore is not an approved apparition. In fact I done some research on it and its message is against Scripture and the Authority of the Church. I don’t think the Catholic Church will approved that one.

Fatima is approved by the Catholic Church because it does not contradict the Scripture and the Church. Like I said before, Fatima is not a requirement for Catholics to believe in. I have seen that video on Google and its not convincing.

 

[LilyM]

I would love to send you the dvd ‘Messages From Heaven’ It is all about these apparitions Guadalupe, Knock, Medjogorge, fatima, father Gobbi, and all the rest of them. They all seem to take the glory of the cross and salvation from Jesus and somehow give Mary the power by making her co-redeemer and mediator. If you don’t see this as taking glory away from God I don’t know what else to say. Good luck.

This DVD lumps unapproved (and strongly discouraged) apparitions like Medjugorje (and I think Father Gobbi as well) in with the approved ones? That shows incredible ignorance to begin with right there.

Find me a Marian dogma (and it’s got to fit the definition of a dogma, which not many do - and not just be some honorary or unofficial title or some such) that was proclaimed solely as result of a vision ***without ***lots of support from Scripture and/or Early Church Fathers. There isn’t one.

 

[newbie1234]

I remember growing up and I was told that if I ate meat on Friday it was a sin against God. Now it’s not a sin. HMMM!
Don’t you realize that a pope cannot dictate to me what is sinful against God just because of his political agenda or because he wants to help out the fishermen. Can’t you see the hypocrisy?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I remember growing up and I was told that if I ate meat on Friday it was a sin against God. Now it’s not a sin. HMMM!

It is a sin not to eat red meat on Lent Friday. Jesus himself fasted 40 days and 40 nights. If you deliberately ate meat just because you wanted to, it is a mortal sin. If you ate red meat because you forgot, it is a venial sin which the Eucharist can cleanse you.

Fasting is an ancient practice by Catholics and Jews.

Don’t you realize that a pope cannot dictate to me what is sinful against God just because of his political agenda or because he wants to help out the fishermen. Can’t you see the hypocrisy?

The Pope did not dictate anything. It’s been part of the Church tradition for 2,000 yrs. The Pope does not have a politically agenda. The only good Popes I know are St. Peter, St. Clement, Pope John Paul, and Benedict XVI, they are sinners, but they love Jesus Christ as much as the next Catholics.

newbie, your post are starting to look very uncharitable. You should be careful on what you write here.

 

[LilyM]

I remember growing up and I was told that if I ate meat on Friday it was a sin against God. Now it’s not a sin. HMMM!
Don’t you realize that a pope cannot dictate to me what is sinful against God just because of his political agenda or because he wants to help out the fishermen. Can’t you see the hypocrisy?

If a Pope wanted to help out fishermen he’d have said it was compulsory to eat fish, not that we weren’t allowed to eat meat. Not eating meat was a sacrifice made out of respect for Christ’s passion. Now we are obliged to do some sort of penance on Fridays (as we always were), simply that now have the choice of doing penitential acts that are meaningful for us, rather than just being obliged to abstain from meat.

And it’s called obedience (as in ‘who hears you hears me’, which Christ said to the Apostles), and it’s called the power of binding and loosing heaven, which the Apostles and their successors have. We would listen to every word that falls from Christ’s lips if he were here in bodily form today. Why should we not listen to most of what comes from those to whom he has passed on some of his powers?

 

[newbie1234]

Well It’s getting late and I have to go to church in a few hours. It’s 4am over here. God Bless you all. I pray that you see the truth. I hope I have represented the Gospel message clearly.Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin is the way to salvation. We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus. No one else.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well It’s getting late and I have to go to church in a few hours. It’s 4am over here. God Bless you all. I pray that you see the truth. I hope I have represented the Gospel message clearly.Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin is the way to salvation. We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus. No one else.

The Catholic Church contains the Fullness of Truth. Just as 1 Tim 3:15 states, “15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

What is the Truth? Jesus Christ

… “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” John Chapter 14, verse 6.

 

[LilyM]

Well It’s getting late and I have to go to church in a few hours. It’s 4am over here. God Bless you all. I pray that you see the truth. I hope I have represented the Gospel message clearly.Faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin is the way to salvation. We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus. No one else.

We have faith in Christ - so much so that we take him at his word when he makes Peter the rock (not rocks) on which he founds his church (not churches) and promises it (not everyone who thinks they understand the Bible) that the gates of hell will not prevail against IT (not everyone, again) :yup:

God bless, worship Him in spirit and in truth.

 

[NotWorthy]

I would say that any person who makes a statue of a woman, be it Our Lady of Fatima, or The Queen of Heaven, or The Lady of All Nations, and bows down and venerates that statue, and says prayers to that statue, is not saved. That means they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and they are part of the great deception. Sorry.

I’m impressed that your newfound religious fervor has allowed you to pass judgement on the rest of us Catholics.

These must be some powerful gifts you’ve been given, for I thought this right was reserved for God alone!

 

[runandsew]

I remember growing up and I was told that if I ate meat on Friday it was a sin against God. Now it’s not a sin. HMMM!
Don’t you realize that a pope cannot dictate to me what is sinful against God just because of his political agenda or because he wants to help out the fishermen. Can’t you see the hypocrisy?

The Church is worldwide, not just in the United States. So when Vatican II changed the meatless Fridays, it wasn’t making not fasting a less of a sin, or helping out the fishing industry, it was because in some countries they do not eat meat, due to economic and cultural reasons. The reason they did this was to allow other types of fasts that would serve other cultures. What is the use of giving up meat if you don’t even eat it. The purpose of the fast is to sacrifice, and you need something to sacrifice. Again, one must keep in mind when the Church makes a decision, it is a worldwide decision, so though it might not make sense in your particular country or culture, there is a reason for it that you might not realize at first.

And fasting on Friday is a small “t” tradition, so it can change. It is not the Pope dictating what is sinful, as if he was God himself, it is the Holy Spirit working through him and the Church that Christ established, this is clearly shown in the Bible. I am sorry you don’t believe what is written in the Bible, and that you have been led astray by your new found beliefs. The Bible does warn us about being led astray though, so if you have read the Bible, you are responsible for what is written there, no excuses. And saying that the Church that Jesus established interprets the Bible wrong is not an acceptable excuse.

And Newbie, I am so sorry that you had to leave the Church to find Jesus, because he has been here all along, you just didn’t recognize him.