SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[Mannyfit75]

Name them - which saints, which Popes canonised them and what use precisely did their canonisations serve politically for those Popes? I’m not saying it’s not possible, but I’ll need to see solid evidence before I believe it.

The answer is given. I listed the bad Popes, and the Good Saintly Popes. We have 265 Popes since St. Peter.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If anyone wants to see the list of Popes and Patriarchs, its at

friesian.com/popes.htm

It’s amazing how Apostolic the Lineage is, especially the Papacy, and the check the Patriarch of Jerusalem… St. James, WoAH!

 

[LilyM]

What Rhetoric would you like me to answer?
Can’t we have a civil conversation without all the attacks?
Please ask one question at a time and I will answer each of them.

Hey, we’re just responding to the accusations you’ve made about the Church.

I don’t see more than one question for every point you’ve made. It shouldn’t be that hard if you have actual data at your disposal rather than generalisations.

 

[lak611]

As for Mom, I don’t think she is saved. I talked to her at length.
I encourage her to get into the Word. That’s where she will grow to know the truth. The half paragraph read at mass is NOT ENOUGH. If you study the Bible you will come to the truth also. Catholic church keeps its parishioners on milk. They say you can’t read the scriptures on your own and understand them.
I encourage you to mature to eat meat. The meat of the word of God.

We DON’T have a half paragraph of Scripture at Mass. We have a first reading from the Old Testament or from the New Testament, a Psalm (also Old Testament), a second reading from the New Testament, and a Gospel reading. That’s 4 Bible readings at each Sunday Mass. Most Protestant services only have 1 Scripture reading. There is more Bible teaching in a Mass than in a Protestant service.

 

[Church_Militant]

To My Dear Church Militant
YOU NEED TO CHILL!
Maybe too many coffees today?

I don’t need to chill, you need to pay attention when people charitably show you the huge holes in the bunk that you have been fed and are now propagating to Catholics on our own forums. An honest person will listen and consider factual evidence when someone proves him wrong.

Don’t drink the stuff but I do get torqued by propagandists who won’t attend to the refutations of their spiels.

As for Mom, I don’t think she is saved. I talked to her at length.

Then you must not have listened. The woman probably knows the Word of God better than you do my friend. I can virtually guarentee that I do.

I encourage her to get into the Word. That’s where she will grow to know the truth. The half paragraph read at mass is NOT ENOUGH.

There’s substantailly more scripture in the liturgy of the Mass than a single paragraph Newbie. And since your dear Mother has the grace to get to Mass every day she will have heard and read the entire Bible in about 3 years. I suspect she’s been through the Word of God more times than you have my friend. But you didn’t consider that, did you?

If you study the Bible you will come to the truth also.

YEP and that is precisely why I am a Catholic.

Catholic church keeps its parishioners on milk.

This is garbage. You have never sat next to me at Mass like tonight when one of the holiest priests I’ve ever met opened the Word of God to us on several passages of scripture, but especially John 2:1-11.

They say you can’t read the scriptures on your own and understand them.

more rhetorical bunkum. Show me a single authentic Catholic document that says that! You can’t because that **is not **Catholic teaching and never has been.

I encourage you to mature to eat meat.

Oh I am. That’s why I can refute your unbiblical propaganda with Biblical and documented facts.. I don’t have to rely on some propaganda dished out by some cult’s dvd.

The meat of the word of God.

Probably the only thing that you have said so far that I will agree with.
Pax tecum,

 

[lak611]

What Rhetoric would you like me to answer?
Can’t we have a civil conversation without all the attacks?
Please ask one question at a time and I will answer each of them.

I am not attacking you. I feel that I have been charitable in my responses, as none have been against you personally. However, I will defend my faith with the facts when somebody makes statements about it that are untrue.

 

[newbie1234]

Militant,
So you say that by going to mass every day you will get through the whole bible in three years. Well I went to mass for many years and never heard any passage out of Leviticus, or numbers, or song of solomon. Isn’t it true that the readings and homily are usually taken from the same group of passages from the epistles, gospels and ot. For instance you might hear something from Rom 8, every two months or so. Am I incorrect?
If not, wouldn’t it be fair to say that in that 3 year period you would read from many of the same passages over and over. And there are many parts of scripture a priest would probably never read from.

 

[Mannyfit75]

newbie,

You have been making false attacks against the Catholic Church base on your view on DVD, and some Anti-Catholic media.

I know you mean well, but I think you are mislead to believe the CC practices and belief are unbiblical.

 

[Church_Militant]

What Rhetoric would you like me to answer?

Back up and answer any of my posts above 100, or just 100 itself for that matter.

Can’t we have a civil conversation without all the attacks?

Hold it! Let’s get something straight here Newbie. We didn’t come to your forum and make comments that your church does this, that, or the other, without the least citation of facts or evidence to support it. You, however, have done exactly that with your posts on this thread. So who made an attack? That post where you alleged that there was little scripture in the Mass? (Provably wrong!)

That the church feeds only milk? (Provably wrong for the same reasons!)

That devotion to Mary is on the rise in Catholicism? (No substantiation…even when Manny provided clear evidence that what you said was dead wrong.)

Please ask one question at a time and I will answer each of them.

Why don’t you go spend some serious and prayerful time checking out the links that Catholics have provided to you so you might get the facts and (Please God!) decide for yourself whether what Calvary has taught you is the truth? And if it’s not…(and it isn’t) then will you have the courage to ask yourself why they did that to you?

Get the facts. Decide for yourself.

 

[newbie1234]

Manny
I encourage you to see the dvd because it is shocking to see how the church has elevated mary to redeemer.
I do not attend a Calvary Chapel.
The objections I have do not come from some anti catholic website. I read the bible, I know what I was taught as a catholic. I am only bringing up things in the bible that I found to be contradictory to the teaching I had as a Catholic. There is no conspiracy here.

 

[Church_Militant]

Militant,
So you say that by going to mass every day you will get through the whole bible in three years. Well I went to mass for many years and never heard any passage out of Leviticus, or numbers, or song of solomon. Isn’t it true that the readings and homily are usually taken from the same group of passages from the epistles, gospels and ot. For instance you might hear something from Rom 8, every two months or so. Am I incorrect?

Yep you’re incorrect.

I was a member of both Southern Baptist and Assembly of God and never ever heard a message on Song of Solomon or Numbers.

As for Leviticus, I believe that we just had a reading from that in the last month or so.

If not, wouldn’t it be fair to say that in that 3 year period you would read from many of the same passages over and over.

No more so than in your church in the case of John 3:16 or Romans 3:26.

It’s a fact that a Catholic will go through the entire Bible in 3 years just by following all the Mass readings. See for yourself.

And there are many parts of scripture a priest would probably never read from.

So? What does that crack mean?

I believe that you’re full of baloney on that one. Lemme go get 2 slices of bread and the Mayo.

Get the facts. Decide for yourself.

 

[water]

Manny
I am only bringing up things in the bible that I found to be contradictory to the teaching I had as a Catholic. There is no conspiracy here.

Does the Bible say it is ok to wear the necklace with a Cross and not ok with the Cross plus the Body of Jesus?

 

[lak611]

I encourage you to see the dvd because it is shocking to see how the church has elevated mary to redeemer.
I do not attend a Calvary Chapel.
The objections I have do not come from some anti catholic website. I read the bible, I know what I was taught as a catholic. I am only bringing up things in the bible that I found to be contradictory to the teaching I had as a Catholic. There is no conspiracy here.

If the objections did not come from Calvary chapel or from an anti-Catholic website, where are they from? Are they from an anti-Catholic DVD? You could not have gotten them from the Bible because there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

 

[LilyM]

Militant,
So you say that by going to mass every day you will get through the whole bible in three years. Well I went to mass for many years and never heard any passage out of Leviticus, or numbers, or song of solomon. Isn’t it true that the readings and homily are usually taken from the same group of passages from the epistles, gospels and ot. For instance you might hear something from Rom 8, every two months or so. Am I incorrect?
If not, wouldn’t it be fair to say that in that 3 year period you would read from many of the same passages over and over. And there are many parts of scripture a priest would probably never read from.

Are you kidding! There are passages read from the Song of Songs every SINGLE year. Two of them in particular that I can quote off by heart are used on two of the Marian feasts (probably the Assumption and Immaculate Conception) they being Songs 2:10-14 and 6:9-10.

Numbers? Does your church read Numbers during your services? A census of ancient Israel? I’d hardly think they do. I certainly have read it, I’m sure most of the posters on here would have, and I can assure you DO read our Bibles (shock horror). Remember that we have MORE books to our Bible - so we hear from, for example, Maccabees, Tobit, Sirach, Baruch - books most people outside of the Catholics and Orthodox would never read.

Do you not see the entire section on these forums devoted to Scripture - its analysis and interpretation? I’d suggest you look at it sometime to get an idea of how deeply we do know our Bibles.

And ABSOLUTELY without question the complete entirety of the New Testament (Gospels AND Epistles) would be read in daily and Sunday Masses every three years.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny
I encourage you to see the dvd because it is shocking to see how the church has elevated mary to redeemer.
I do not attend a Calvary Chapel.
The objections I have do not come from some anti catholic website. I read the bible, I know what I was taught as a catholic. I am only bringing up things in the bible that I found to be contradictory to the teaching I had as a Catholic. There is no conspiracy here.

I think God should turn me into a parrot because I am going to repeat myself again.

The Catholic Church has not officially declare that Mary is the Co-Redemptrix.

I have given you links to the Vatican Website concerning this issue, and I have also provided you a link to the Catholic Catechism.

I have seen this video on Google Video and I find it context completely taken out of place. It does not hold the view of the official teachings of the Church.

Newbie, I ask that you go to the website which we Catholics believed in. That DVD is Anti-Catholic and even if I watch it, I would not be convince because I know enough about my faith.

If you are trying to convert me to Evangelical Protestant. It is not going to happen because Protestants lack the valid priesthood and most importantly, they lack the Eucharist.

No Eucharist, no Jesus Christ. No priesthood, no Eucharist.

Jesus would have to lie to me to make me leave the Catholic Church.

That is not the case, Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. He also said that He will be with us until the End of Time.

The Catholic Church is the only Church that have been consistent with their teachings, and I believe Jesus preserved his Catholic Church from error. There is nothing in this world that will make me leave the Catholic Church.

If I do, I am rejecting Jesus Christ. “He who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me.”

 

[Church_Militant]

I know what I was taught as a catholic.

There are 2 options here.

1. You failed to pay attention and so misunderstood what was being taught. (As did I), or
2. You were taught wrong. Always a possibility.

Either way you’ve got a botched understanding of the Catholic faith. Stick around and I think you’ll learn better.

I am only bringing up things in the bible that I found to be contradictory to the teaching I had as a Catholic.

This is also dead wrong.

You cannot provide a Catholic teaching that contradicts the Word of God. I challenge you to open a seperate thread on each belief that you think contradict the Word of God and I and my brothers and sisters here, will come in and prove you dead wrong on every blessed one of them.

I don’t think you can get through the links that we’ve already supplied you with without discovering that you have believed wrong.
**
Get the facts. Decide for yourself.**

 

[newbie1234]

As for the cross issue, it was a gift. You want to wear a cross with body on it, God bless you. Wear it in good health. My cross does not have a body and it reminds me that Jesus is risen. I don’t recall ever saying that either way was biblical or non biblical. It really doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see what the problem is. If you want to call me a heretic for wearing a cross without the body of Jesus on it So be it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

As for the cross issue, it was a gift. You want to wear a cross with body on it, God bless you. Wear it in good health. My cross does not have a body and it reminds me that Jesus is risen. I don’t recall ever saying that either way was biblical or non biblical. It really doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see what the problem is. If you want to call me a heretic for wearing a cross without the body of Jesus on it So be it.

There is nothing wrong with wearing cross or any religious article. Even the Scapular which you seen to dislike Catholics to wear. The scapular reminds us of this Christian obligation and of Mary’s promise to help those consecrated to her obtain the grace of final perseverance.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Information about the Scapular;

**The world in which we live is full of material things that have symbolic meaning: light, fire, water… there are also, in everyday life, experiences of relationships between human beings, which express and symbolize deeper realities such as taking part in a protest march (as a sign of solidarity), joining together in a national celebration (as a sign of identity).

We need signs and symbols to help us understand what is happening at present, or what happened before, and to give us an awareness of who we are, as individuals and as groups.

Jesus is the great sign of the Father’s love. He founded the Church as a sign and instrument of His love. Christian life also has its signs. Jesus used bread, wine, water to help us understand higher things, which we can neither see or touch.

In the celebration of the Eucharist and the other sacraments (baptism, confirmation, reconciliation, matrimony, orders, the sacrament of the sick) the symbols, (water, oil, the laying on of hands, the rings,) all have their own meaning and bring us into.

As well as liturgical signs, the Church has others related to some event, to some tradition or some person. One of these is the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.**

 

[water]

If you want to call me a heretic for wearing a cross without the body of Jesus on it So be it.

Another bad assumption, isn’t it? I wouldn’t call you heretic for that.

but why you have such problem with Catholics wearing scapular, having Statues inside the church?