SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[valient_Lucy]

As for the cross issue, it was a gift. You want to wear a cross with body on it, God bless you. Wear it in good health. My cross does not have a body and it reminds me that Jesus is risen. I don’t recall ever saying that either way was biblical or non biblical. It really doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see what the problem is. If you want to call me a heretic for wearing a cross without the body of Jesus on it So be it.

No one is calling you a heretic.

However, a pastor at a non-denominational church my mom used to attend discouraged the use of crosses. There is no cross in the auditorium of the church. He felt that to use a cross, even a plain cross without a body on it, could lead to idolatry.

So, is wearing a cross acceptible, or is it a possible temptation?

No one is attacking you personally, we’re just asking you to defend what you believe, and showing you where your understanding of Catholic teaching is incorrect.

 

[newbie1234]

Water,
I said those things were meaningless to me
BECAUSE THEY WERE!
I didn’t make those statements to hurt you or anybody else.
I participate on this board out of LOVE.
I have a genuine concern for YOUR eternal soul.
I evangelize out of LOVE.
I want all people to be with me in heaven.
It’s all about LOVE FOR MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
It’s not a power trip or 'I’m right you’re wrong"

I never felt that the eucharist ACTUALLY became the flesh and actual blood of Jesus.
As a catholic there were may things that I never believed in.
A priest friend of my father’s once said to me"The catholic church is like a club. Our club has a set of rules. If you don’t follow the rules, you are not in the club." That was twenty years ago. From the moment he said that I didn’t consider myself a catholic anymore.
That statement was a major turning point in my life.
It was the beginning of a long slow process of growing in my faith. Now twenty years later here I am.
I look back at all my friends that I went to catholic school with and none of them are practicing catholics.
Most of my extended family, including my father, profess to be catholic but never go to church. To me their faith seems dead.
My mother’s devotion to her church seems to come from obedience. While there is nothing wrong with being obedient, my zeal comes from love.
I can’t wait to get to my church and worship God.
Love drives me, not obedience.
Don’t get me wrong I also try to be odedient to where the Spirit leads me.
I evangelize on the freezing street corner every Friday night out of love, not obedience.
I participate on this forum in order to share that love with others.
I know how I felt as a catholic.
I know some of the feelings I have had about the emptiness
and doubt and ritual of catholicism some people reading this may also feel.
My testimony is about how my faith has grown and I have changed since becoming born again and studying the bible.
And I want to share that testimony with everyone!

 

[Church_Militant]

I am not trying to turn anyone into an evangelical protestant. You are all happy in the catholic church. You feel

fulfilled. You feel safe being under the guidance of the pope.
You believe the doctrines.
You feel enriched at mass.
You trust your priests and bishops and nuns
So be it.And all with good reason, but you are wrong (again) on one particular aspect. It has little to do with feeling anything. Oh certainly there is a joy of the Lord that is our strength, but the reasons that I am Catholic are because I have checked into the facts of the faith and because they are solidly there I can then base my faith upon them. Even were I a “Bible-only Christian”, I would still be Catholic because contrary to the propaganda that says otherwise, Catholicism is Biblically supported and frankly, n-C denoms (or non-denoms) have nothing on it.

I had questions in many of these areas.
I found answers by studying the Word.
But those answers apparently are only for me.

This will sum up what I believe to be the whole problem with your religion at this point Newbie. You sat down with a Bible (and probably a concordance, or else in a group Bible study somewhere) and when you asked your questions you were handed the typical proof texts of n-C belief vs what you thought was the Catholic Church’s teachings, but we have already shown you that in almost every case you have mentioned, you started from a flawed premis. In other words you prove Bishop Fulton J. Sheen right when he said,

*“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion,
but there are many who hate
what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion,
Catholics would hate it too.” *

On this forum it seems that I get persecuted for even asking the questions.

You have not been persecuted in any way. You came here and have offered comments, assertions, and allegations to knowledgeable Catholics concerning our most holy faith and have been very charitably refuted. (Note for example the fact that Moderator Michael Francis split this thread off from one where it was off topic instead of just deleting the off-topic posts. That is done when they feel that someone has questions that need answering. Note also how many places you see (Edited by Moderator), which means that he also edited out less than charitable comments on both sides of the discussion.)

Basically what I am saying is that wherever you have made statements that are not in line with authentic Catholic teaching, we have charitably offered you correct info and links for further study in order to properly answer your questions.

I certainly haven’t “perscuted” you. I just won’t let your inaccurate assertions about my faith slide. I figure that if you ask a question or make an inaccurate statement, the charitable Christian thing to do is to correct you since ignorance in spiritual matters is not bliss at all.
Pax tecum,

The church I go to is a small nondenominational church. We study the Bible line by line from genesis to revelation. Wed night is 2 hours. We just finished the minor prophets. This Sun morning 1hr on 1cor15 resurrection of the dead. Along with 1/2hr fellowship. Sun eve 1hr spiritual gifts and fellowship.
I do evangelistic work for my small church, every friday we feed the homeless and give out bibles and tracts. In summer we also outreach on Thurs. Mens group on Saturday morn 9-11. My pastor has a radio show m-f 4-5pm. and I listen every day.
This is what my walk with Christ as a born again believer looks like. I’m in the Word almost every day and I fellowship with other Christians almost every day.
I didn’t just write this to boast.
It is a illustration of how my faith has grown since I left Catholicism

And you are happy with that, and that is just fine by the Catholic Church, but you seem to blame the Catholic faith for not being all that for you and I know for a fact that there is far more to it than you have apparently experienced.

One thing: don’t confuse busy-ness with spirituality. It can actually detract from one’s spiritual growth. I know that for a fact.

I do have a question for you Newbie. If you’re so happy in your religion…why are you here spending time talking to Catholics and griping about what you think we believe and what your Mom does? I don’t get it. What exactly brought you here to this discussion with guys like me?
Pax tecum,

 

[water]

Water,
I said those things were meaningless to me
BECAUSE THEY WERE!

This reminds me about another thread saying that when a non-Catholic converts to Catholic, he thanks to his formal church for bring him the good foundation on faith; on the contrary, a Catholic converts to non-catholic, he likes to say bad things about his formal church.

I didn’t make those statements to hurt you or anybody else.
I participate on this board out of LOVE.
I have a genuine concern for YOUR eternal soul.
I evangelize out of LOVE.
I want all people to be with me in heaven.
It’s all about LOVE FOR MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
It’s not a power trip or 'I’m right you’re wrong"

I know you do out of love; however, you lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith - this results in - little do you know that the people you are upsetting are really those in Heaven right now.

I never felt that the eucharist ACTUALLY became the flesh and actual blood of Jesus.
As a catholic there were may things that I never believed in.
A priest friend of my father’s once said to me"The catholic church is like a club. Our club has a set of rules. If you don’t follow the rules, you are not in the club." That was twenty years ago. From the moment he said that I didn’t consider myself a catholic anymore.
That statement was a major turning point in my life.

Well, your first post in here was we were worshiping Mary and that you had said 1000 Hail Mary - that’s your first impression when you came to the board

It was the beginning of a long slow process of growing in my faith. Now twenty years later here I am.
I look back at all my friends that I went to catholic school with and none of them are practicing catholics.
Most of my extended family, including my father, profess to be catholic but never go to church. To me their faith seems dead.
My mother’s devotion to her church seems to come from obedience. While there is nothing wrong with being obedient, my zeal comes from love.
I can’t wait to get to my church and worship God.

That’s why you find not everyone is perfect at your church either, but that does not mean you abandon your faith, does it?

Love drives me, not obedience.
Don’t get me wrong I also try to be odedient to where the Spirit leads me.
I evangelize on the freezing street corner every Friday night out of love, not obedience.
I participate on this forum in order to share that love with others.
I know how I felt as a catholic.
I know some of the feelings I have had about the emptiness
and doubt and ritual of catholicism some people reading this may also feel.

Actually, being obedience comes from Love …really! go ask your mom to make sure if she loves God…don’t just stay here and assume about your own mother’s love for God. You used the word “seem”.

My testimony is about how my faith has grown and I have changed since becoming born again and studying the bible.
And I want to share that testimony with everyone!

Sharing testimony is good; however, sharing without considering learning the truth of others can be a disaster.

 

[Church_Militant]

I wrote all those things as an illustration of how my walk has changed. How I have changed.
I am not trying to impress anyone.

OK…no problem.

My life is becoming more and more about serving God and less and less about being part of this world.

Which is good. It may also be why the Holy Spirit has led you here to talk with us.

Yes you all have all the answers.
They are the same answers I get from every catholic, including my family. It’s like they are from a manuscript.
I went to a catholic revival last year. They go over all the answers to all the questions.

And this is a bad thing , why?

Have you proved any of our responses wrong? No, nor can you. Can the same be said for your beliefs about our most holy faith? No it cannot, as we have shown.

So where is there a real valid reason to remain outside the Catholic Church? You haven’t supplied one so far my friend.

I also know that my walk as a catholic was empty.
The mass was meaningless.
And the rules didn’t make sense.

But that was on your end, not the church’s, which is exactly what I found to be the case in my own life. hence, where I am now.

I don’t feel

like that anymore.Remember what I said about feelings?
Pax tecum,

 

[newbie1234]

“not saved”? How can this be? My understanding of Sola Fida (Faith in Christ alone) is that all I have to do is believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior and regardless of what I do or think from that moment on I am saved. Am I mistaken? If I can fornicate, steal or murder wouldn’t bowing to a statue simply be a trivial matter?

Maybe you can explain to me why many Fundementalist Protestants preach Faith in Christ alone for salvation and yet make an exception for Catholics who Love adore and obey the Lord. Catholics beileve in Christ.

This is my understanding: When someone becomes born again, a major change takes place. Their whole life changes. I have seen it happen many times with many people, including myself. The old worldly person fades away and a new person emerges. This does not mean the NEW person never sins again. Read Rom 6-8
This is a lifelong growing and maturing process.
The more I study the Word of God, the more I realize where He wants me to be and what He wants my life to look like.

So I can be saved and still fornicate.
But sooner or later the Holy Spirit will convict me and show me that fornication is not in God’s will for my life.
I have received correction from the Holy Spirit in many areas in my life including: using God’s name in vain, vulgar language, celibacy, alcohol, smoking, patience, idolatry,and many others.
So my conclusion is, if a person is saved, God is doing a work in him or her.
So sooner or later that person will get conviction about the things that don’t honor God.
Now, I have conviction that kneeling in front of any statue is idolatrous. Ex 20:4
But, I was taught as a child that kneeling before a statue is completely acceptable.
Sometime in my maturing process God showed me that giving veneration to any statue takes the glory away from God.
So that is something I do not do.
I guess it is presumptuous of me to think that God will convict everyone in exactly the same way.
The statue thing is truth to me.
When I relay MY truth to a catholic, THEIR truth and conviction is different.
But that doesn’t mean I am wrong.
I am lead by the Spirit to share the things God has shown me.
I feel that if a person has the indwelling Holy Sprit, sooner or later their conviction should match my convictions.since it is the same Spirit dwelling in both of us.

My participation on this forum is to encourage people to test those things that the church teaches. 2Tim4:2-5

 

[Randy_Carson]

The church I go to is a small nondenominational church. We study the Bible line by line from genesis to revelation. Wed night is 2 hours. We just finished the minor prophets. This Sun morning 1hr on 1cor15 resurrection of the dead. Along with 1/2hr fellowship. Sun eve 1hr spiritual gifts and fellowship.
I do evangelistic work for my small church, every friday we feed the homeless and give out bibles and tracts. In summer we also outreach on Thurs. Mens group on Saturday morn 9-11. My pastor has a radio show m-f 4-5pm. and I listen every day.
This is what my walk with Christ as a born again believer looks like. I’m in the Word almost every day and I fellowship with other Christians almost every day.
I didn’t just write this to boast.
It is a illustration of how my faith has grown since I left Catholicism

If no one else has asked you this, then I will:

1. How does your pastor know with certainty that what he is preaching is true?
2. How do you know with certainty that what he is preaching is true?

 

[Church_Militant]

I never felt that the eucharist ACTUALLY became the flesh and actual blood of Jesus.

Then you haven’t studied the scriptural basis for it. The Eucharist IS Scriptural (LINK).

As a catholic there were may things that I never believed in.

The wise man goes in search of reasons before he departs.

A priest friend of my father’s once said to me"The catholic church is like a club. Our club has a set of rules. If you don’t follow the rules, you are not in the club." That was twenty years ago. From the moment he said that I didn’t consider myself a catholic anymore.
That statement was a major turning point in my life.

All based on a very bad analogy. The fact is that the Catholic Church is the original New Testament full gospel church. This is supported by both the Bible and the 2,000 years of Christian history. If that is true, (and it is) then essentially what the priest said is true, (tho badly expressed I think). The fact is that all Christians say that same thing without saying it that way. We believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him.

What’s the difference?

It was the beginning of a long slow process of growing in my faith. Now twenty years later here I am.
I look back at all my friends that I went to catholic school with and none of them are practicing catholics.
Most of my extended family, including my father, profess to be catholic but never go to church. To me their faith seems dead.

So other’s human failings negate the validity of the tuth? If that is the case then you have no reason to be a believer at all since the same can be said of the many many backsliders in every church.

My mother’s devotion to her church seems to come from obedience. While there is nothing wrong with being obedient, my zeal comes from love.

This is a presumption on your part. It’s not just about obedience…it’s called faithfulness. She persists in her faith even when those around her fail or abandon it.

I can’t wait to get to my church and worship God.

Funny, I say the same thing.

I participate on this forum in order to share that love with others.
I know how I felt

as a catholic.
I know some of the feelings I have had about the emptiness and doubt and ritual of catholicism some people reading this may also feel.This is where you (again) go wrong. Catering to your own feelings while wishing to capitalize on the feelings of others. And in our case here at CAF, that is precisely one of the major reasons that we are here. To help our brothers and sisters find the answers they need to grow in our most holy faith and not be evangelized away from the truth by well meaning but misguided souls like you .

My testimony is about how my faith has grown and I have changed since becoming born again and studying the bible.

Yeah, and so is mine.

And I want to share that testimony with everyone!

One more place where you and I will perhaps agree. (Alert the media! )
Pax tecum,

 

[newbie1234]

It may also be why the Holy Spirit has led you here to talk with us. And this is a bad thing , why?

I’m glad we are on the same page.
The Holy Spirit HAS led me here to talk with you.
I don’t know the reason.
It’s pretty clear that you are firm in your faith.
You are immovable.
Your truth and my truth differ.
That’s ok.
You stay over there.
I’ll stay over here.
I know this though: you have sharpened me. And I thank you for it.
I witness to dozens of catholics every week and I need to be sharp.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

It may also be why the Holy Spirit has led you here to talk with us. And this is a bad thing , why?

I’m glad we are on the same page.
The Holy Spirit HAS led me here to talk with you.
I don’t know the reason.
It’s pretty clear that you are firm in your faith.
You are immovable.
Your truth and my truth differ.
That’s ok.
You stay over there.
I’ll stay over here.
I know this though: you have sharpened me. And I thank you for it.
I witness to dozens of catholics every week and I need to be sharp.

Christian truth doesn’t differ, Newbie, it has not changed in the 1970+ years of teaching from the Apostles and their chosen disciples to their chosen disciple to their chosen disciples to their chosen disciples to the Catholic Church collecting the canon of the Bible then the teaching continues to their chosen disciples to their chosen disciples.

You witness what exactly? The message of what Gospel?

IF you witness your life through your works, then God bless you, you’re acting like a good Catholic and following the Church’s teaching (from Isaiah and the NT) on feeding the poor, seeing Christ in everyone. Keep up the good work.

Jonathan

 

[newbie1234]

If no one else has asked you this, then I will:

1. How does your pastor know with certainty that what he is preaching is true?
2. How do you know with certainty that what he is preaching is true?

Randy,
Whoever the teacher is, everything taught MUST be in line with the bible. 2Tim3:16-17.
I have both the authority and ability to read the bible and test all things 1thess5:21.

 

[water]

Randy,
Whoever the teacher is, everything taught MUST be in line with the bible. 2Tim3:16-17.
I have both the authority and ability to read the bible and test all things 1thess5:21.

Does the Bible say you can wear a necklace of the Cross?

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Randy,

Whoever the teacher is, everything taught MUST be in line with the bible. 2Tim3:16-17.
I have both the authority and ability to read the bible and test all things 1thess5:21.

Newbie;

Do you ever thank God for having the Catholic Church collect and preserve the teachings of Jesus in that Bible you have?

 

[newbie1234]

Christian truth doesn’t differ, Newbie, it has not changed in the 1970+ years of teaching from the Apostles and their chosen disciples to their chosen disciple to their chosen disciples to their chosen disciples to the Catholic Church collecting the canon of the Bible then the teaching continues to their chosen disciples to their chosen disciples.

You witness what exactly? The message of what Gospel?

IF you witness your life through your works, then God bless you, you’re acting like a good Catholic and following the Church’s teaching (from Isaiah and the NT) on feeding the poor, seeing Christ in everyone. Keep up the good work.

Jonathan

This is my witness:
Everyone is a sinner.
Sin separates us from God.
If we have sin we cannot go to heaven.
Jesus Christ died on the cross and was resurrected in order to pay for our sins.
If we believe in Him and repent of our sins and ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of our life, we will go to heaven when we die.
We are saved by grace through our faith.
Works will not get anyone into heaven.
These are the words I say when I witness to the lost.

 

[Church_Militant]

Now, I have conviction that kneeling in front of any statue is idolatrous. Ex 20:4
But, I was taught as a child that kneeling before a statue is completely acceptable.
Sometime in my maturing process God showed me that giving veneration to any statue takes the glory away from God.
So that is something I do not do.

The statue thing is truth to me.

But it is not truth. Read this post.

I guess it is presumptuous of me to think that God will convict everyone in exactly the same way.

Maybe…probably…

When I relay MY truth to a catholic, THEIR truth and conviction is different.
But that doesn’t mean I am wrong.

You make a presumption here that is fallacious.

You presume that your own understanding is correct, yet we have shown you that the things that you have stated are inaccurate and in many cases unscriptural as well. Where you digress from both the Word of God and the verifiable historical teachings of Christianity, who do you suppose is in error?

Case in point: Your rejection of the Eucharistic Real Presence of Our Lord. The link above makes the Biblical case very plain, and if you look here at the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the church at Smryna you’ll see in the 7th and 8th chapters, you’ll see that it was a very big deal in the early church.

I am lead by the Spirit to share the things God has shown me.
I feel that if a person has the indwelling Holy Sprit, sooner or later their conviction should match my convictions.since it is the same Spirit dwelling in both of us.

See, this is more fallacious reasoning. If the spirit leading a person is erroneous then who is that from? Only 3 possible sources…the world, the flesh, or the devil.

Since your convictions as stated on this forum have been proved to be in error, what does that say to you?

My participation on this forum is to encourage people to test those things that the church teaches. 2Tim4:2-5

Which says, "1: I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.
3: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,
4: and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.
5: As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. "

You should’ve included verse 1. This describes exactly what I and my brothers and sisters here at CAF have done with you so far Newb. Verse 3 is exactly the way I feel about the myriad winds of n-C man-made teachings that are blowing through the world right now.
Pax tecum,

 

[JaneFrances]

If we believe in Him and repent of our sins and ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of our life, we will go to heaven when we die.

Newbie, I think you may have forgotten a couple of things:

If we believe in Him,

repent of our sins,

ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of our life,

TAKE UP OUR CROSS AND FOLLOW HIM (Matthew 16:24),

OBEY HIM (Matthew 19:17),

EAT HIS FLESH AND DRINK HIS BLOOD (John 6:54)

CONFESS HIM (Romans 10:9)

and PERSEVERE (James 1:12)

we have the HOPE of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

These are the words I say when I witness to the lost.

Then, may I suggest you be advised by the additional points above so that you may not lead the lost away from the FULL truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[newbie1234]

But it is not truth. Read this post.
Maybe…probably…You make a presumption here that is fallacious.

You presume that your own understanding is correct, yet we have shown you that the things that you have stated are inaccurate and in many cases unscriptural as well. Where you digress from both the Word of God and the verifiable historical teachings of Christianity, who do you suppose is in error?

Case in point: Your rejection of the Eucharistic Real Presence of Our Lord. The link above makes the Biblical case very plain, and if you look here at the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the church at Smryna you’ll see in the 7th and 8th chapters, you’ll see that it was a very big deal in the early church.
See, this is more fallacious reasoning. If the spirit leading a person is erroneous then who is that from? Only 3 possible sources…the world, the flesh, or the devil.

Since your convictions as stated on this forum have been proved to be in error, what does that say to you?
Which says, "1: I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.
3: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,
4: and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.
5: As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. "

You should’ve included verse 1. This describes exactly what I and my brothers and sisters here at CAF have done with you so far Newb. Verse 3 is exactly the way I feel about the myriad winds of n-C man-made teachings that are blowing through the world right now.
Pax tecum,

So we each feel that our beliefs are the truth from God and the other is being led by the enemy.
I will definitely agree with that.
As much as you feel I am mislead, I feel you are mislead.
We are at an impasse.
Which is fine by me. Like I said before, I’m sharpening.
There are a lot of lost people out there that need saving.

 

[water]

As much as you feel I am mislead, I feel you are mislead.

No, we know you are mislead.

 

[newbie1234]

Newbie, I think you may have forgotten a couple of things:

If we believe in Him,

repent of our sins,

ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of our life,

TAKE UP OUR CROSS AND FOLLOW HIM (Matthew 16:24),

OBEY HIM (Matthew 19:17),

EAT HIS FLESH AND DRINK HIS BLOOD (John 6:54)

CONFESS HIM (Romans 10:9)

and PERSEVERE (James 1:12)

we have the HOPE of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Then, may I suggest you be advised by the additional points above so that you may not lead the lost away from the FULL truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How about this: You lead people to Christ Your way
And I’ll lead people to Christ my way.
My way works for me.
I believe that if a person sincerely accepts Christ on the street corner and honestly repents of of their sins and 1 minute later they are hit by a bus, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
They are saved by grace through faith, not by works, lest anyone should boast.
Christ said to the criminal next to Him on the cross, “today you will be with me in paradise”. He didn’t have to do any works or eat of His flesh or anything else. That criminal was saved by his faith.

 

[water]

How about this: You lead people to Christ Your way
And I’ll lead people to Christ my way.
My way works for me.
I believe that if a person sincerely accepts Christ on the street corner and honestly repents of of their sins and 1 minute later they are hit by a bus, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
They are saved by grace through faith, not by works, lest anyone should boast.
Christ said to the criminal next to Him on the cross, “today you will be with me in paradise”. He didn’t have to do any works or eat of His flesh or anything else. That criminal was saved by his faith.

Really? did the Bible say he didn’t do anything? Didn’t he get nailed onto the cross? didn’t he get his feet busted? Did the Bible say he went straight to Heaven or it is just your guest?

Jam 2:26: faith without works is dead.