SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[newbie1234]

I have no doubt you can “prove” it using the biblical Cannon.

But I offer my apologies I posted quickly however and did not recheck my dates. I was thinking the doctrine of the Trinity was not fully defined until after the Canon was closed.

I see that it was before, so it does not apply.

However, I would also say that it is not “clear” in scripture, the teaching of the Trinity or would not today have those who do not in fact believe in the Trinity. One cannot “prove” it from Scripture because they choose to believe the interpretation of those who have come along. Sacred Tradition as someone else pointed out is the reason you can so confidently “prove” the Trinity from Scirpture.

God Bless,
Maria

I do not follow sacred tradition

 

[newbie1234]

Except that history shows that the early church was indeed Catholic in both belief and practice.

I don’t see any of the n-Cs that I know practicing confession to any other believers. So that rationalization juust doesn’t wash Newb.

I know the people I fellowship with confess our sins to each other. I can’t speak for the people you know.

 

[MariaG]

Yes Mary, when I was catholic I prayed to Mary many thousands of times.
now that I am born again I have asked about the prayers to Mary and her apparitions in Fatima and guadalupe. The answer I got was that the apparitions are from the enemy and although Mary the mother of Jesus was blessed, I should NOT be praying to her apparition or statue. This is how I am lead by the Holy Spirit. I know humble Mary of the bible has no power to answer prayers or heal or anything of that nature. Power comes from God the father.

I have a friend who says she was led by the Holy Spirit to become a Mormon.

And FYI, the Catholic Church does not teach that the power to heal originates in Mary but only comes from God. Another Catholic teaching that you apparently do not understand.

Again, I don’t have trouble with people who choose to reject the teachings of the Catholic Church. You however, have yet to show that you ever actually understood that which you rejected. I pray you will stick around long enough to learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches

Respecfully,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I do not follow sacred tradition

Sorry, you do if you believe in the Trinity.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[newbie1234]

I have a friend who says she was led by the Holy Spirit to become a Mormon.

And FYI, the Catholic Church does not teach that the power to heal originates in Mary but only comes from God. Another Catholic teaching that you apparently do not understand.

Again, I don’t have trouble with people who choose to reject the teachings of the Catholic Church. You however, have yet to show that you ever actually understood that which you rejected. I pray you will stick around long enough to learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches

Respecfully,
Maria

whether the church teaches that mary has power or not. I still am not lead to pray to her in any way. i will call her blessed but that is it.

 

[MariaG]

whether the church teaches that mary has power or not. I still am not lead to pray to her in any way. i will call her blessed but that is it.

And the Church does not teach that you must ask Mary to pray for you in anyway shape or form

We certainly are encouraged to ask others to pray for us, and to pray for others, but there is no one person that we are required to ask to share in our prayers.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[newbie1234]

Sorry, you do if you believe in the Trinity.

God Bless,
Maria

Gen 1:26 “Let us make man in our own image.”
Represents plurality see also Gen 11:7, Isa6:8
Isa 43:10-11 “Besides me there is no savior”
God and the savior are one
Matt 3:16 Spirit of God descended on Jesus while a voice from heaven says “This is my beloved son”
Matt28:19 Baptize them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit
Represents triune godhead
Jn1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Represents Jesus being everlasting and also God

We don’t need sacred tradition to prove trinity doctrine.
there are many other scriptural references. I chose these few in the interest of saving some time

 

[newbie1234]

And the Church does not teach that you must ask Mary to pray for you in anyway shape or form

We certainly are encouraged to ask others to pray for us, and to pray for others, but there is no one person that we are required to ask to share in our prayers.

God Bless,
Maria

ok so we are in agreement

 

[newbie1234]

. I did not say that. You claimed that you received “Body and Blood” and I told you exactly under what circumstances that would be the case. Your communion is not ‘false’ as a ‘memorial’ but it is not the complete and once-for-all sacrifice of Christ made at both the Last Supper and on Calvary of which Catholics partake.

So you believe that when the priest prays over that wafer, the wafer ACTUALLY turns into the actual flesh of Jesus. That would be 2000 year old flesh or skin or something from the body of Jesus
And the Wine becomes the actual 2000 year old blood of
Jesus.
And when my pastor says a prayer over bread and wine it doesn’t turn into the actual flesh and blood but it is symbolic.
So if anyone ever asked you if you ever drank a man’s blood you would say yes.
Same answer for eating human flesh.
And if my pastor ever became a catholic priest his prayer over the bread and wine would turn it into actual flesh and blood.

 

[MariaG]

Gen 1:26 “Let us make man in our own image.”
Represents plurality see also Gen 11:7, Isa6:8
Isa 43:10-11 “Besides me there is no savior”
God and the savior are one
Matt 3:16 Spirit of God descended on Jesus while a voice from heaven says “This is my beloved son”
Matt28:19 Baptize them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit
Represents triune godhead
Jn1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Represents Jesus being everlasting and also God

We don’t need sacred tradition to prove trinity doctrine.
there are many other scriptural references. I chose these few in the interest of saving some time

But in fact we do need sacred Tradition fo prove the Trinity. I agree with you that there is much scripture. But that does not change the fact that there were those who tried to teach differently and DO teach differently about the Trinity. Here are just a few of the heresies that arose.

Arianism

Eutychianism

Nestorianism

Oneness Pentecostals us the same bible, same scripture but come up with a different answer. It is only the Sacred Tradition that has brought you to this mindset.

Jehovah Witness. Mormon. All of the above would not agree that the Trinity is in Scripture at all.

You can even ask Lutherans. They will acknowledge that things like the Trinity are from Tradtion.

To ignore that is to ignore the entire history of Christianity and its writings.

Trinity is from Sacred Tradition, implicit in Scripture.

Explicit only once that truth has been revealed to you, but until them, people are like non-believers who just don’t “see” it in scripture.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

ok so we are in agreement

Yup, but as Church Militant (I think it was CM ) asked, why would you not wish to practice the wonderfully biblical communion of Saints.

Asking Saints in the whole Church to pray for each other is entirely biblical and pleasing to God.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[lak611]

I do not follow sacred tradition

Then why do you believe in the Trinity? That comes from Tradition, not Scripture.

 

[newbie1234]

But in fact we do need sacred Tradition fo prove the Trinity. I agree with you that there is much scripture. But that does not change the fact that there were those who tried to teach differently and DO teach differently about the Trinity. Here are just a few of the heresies that arose.

Arianism

Eutychianism

Nestorianism

Oneness Pentecostals us the same bible, same scripture but come up with a different answer. It is only the Sacred Tradition that has brought you to this mindset.

Jehovah Witness. Mormon. All of the above would not agree that the Trinity is in Scripture at all.

You can even ask Lutherans. They will acknowledge that things like the Trinity are from Tradtion.

To ignore that is to ignore the entire history of Christianity and its writings.

Trinity is from Sacred Tradition, implicit in Scripture.

Explicit only once that truth has been revealed to you, but until them, people are like non-believers who just don’t “see” it in scripture.

God Bless,
Maria

If I show you where scripture describes and proves the trinity why do you say I need some other source to see it. It is right there in the text. Open your bible and look.

 

[newbie1234]

Yup, but as Church Militant (I think it was CM ) asked, why would you not wish to practice the wonderfully biblical communion of Saints.

Asking Saints in the whole Church to pray for each other is entirely biblical and pleasing to God.

God Bless,
Maria

Could you give me some biblical references on praying to saints and the communion of saints?

 

[newbie1234]

Then why do you believe in the Trinity? That comes from Tradition, not Scripture.

Read post 317 and you can see where the trinity doctrine is proven in the bible. Then open your bible and read those few verses and you will not need sacred tradition.

 

[MariaG]

If I show you where scripture describes and proves the trinity why do you say I need some other source to see it. It is right there in the text. Open your bible and look.

Again, that is what JW’s, Mormons, Oneness pentecostals have done and they all disagree with us. They just opened their bible and claim the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The only Reason the Trinity is so solid in most all Christian denominations is because of Tradition. Lutheran, Anglican and Methodist Churches acknowledge this fact. It is only those who have come along since the 1800’s or so that refuse to admit that Tradition has any basis in their beliefs at all.

Ironically, this is completely non-scriptural since Scripture tells us to “hold fast to tradition whether oral or by letter”(2Thes 2:15). If your church claims not to follow tradition, then your church does not follow scripture.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[lak611]

If I show you where scripture describes and proves the trinity why do you say I need some other source to see it. It is right there in the text. Open your bible and look.

Where do you see the word “Trinity” in the Bible? You don’t. The Tradition of the Church interpreted those verses you mentioned to define the belief in the Trinity. So you DO believe in Sacred Tradition, otherwise you would belong to one of those sects that Maria mentioned.

 

[newbie1234]

Again, that is what JW’s, Mormons, Oneness pentecostals have done and they all disagree with us. They just opened their bible and claim the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The only Reason the Trinity is so solid in most all Christian denominations is because of Tradition. Lutheran, Anglican and Methodist Churches acknowledge this fact. It is only those who have come along since the 1800’s or so that refuse to admit that Tradition has any basis in their beliefs at all.

Ironically, this is completely non-scriptural since Scripture tells us to “hold fast to tradition whether oral or by letter”(2Thes 2:15). If your church claims not to follow tradition, then your church does not follow scripture.

Respectfully,
Maria

If I can learn about the triune God from my bible, it is not good enough for proof to others? I must say Trinity is true because of catholic tradition? Come on!

 

[newbie1234]

Where do you see the word “Trinity” in the Bible? You don’t. The Tradition of the Church interpreted those verses you mentioned to define the belief in the Trinity. So you DO believe in Sacred Tradition, otherwise you would belong to one of those sects that Maria mentioned.

I’ll tell you some of the posts I read are incredible!
The word trinity is not in the bible- true
The church probably made up that word.
I read my bible which is the word of God.
I can see that the Godhead is in three parts.
I’ve never read a book on sacred tradition.
in fact I couldn’t even name a title of a book on sacred catholic tradition.so how can I be a believer in something I have never even studied?

 

[lak611]

I’ll tell you some of the posts I read are incredible!
The word trinity is not in the bible- true
The church probably made up that word.
I read my bible which is the word of God.
I can see that the Godhead is in three parts.
I’ve never read a book on sacred tradition.
in fact I couldn’t even name a title of a book on sacred catholic tradition.so how can I be a believer in something I have never even studied?

You believe in the Trinity because you believe what you were taught by the Church. This is true whether you want to admit it or not.