SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter newbie1234
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No problem - neither do I?

Next question: If your faith community does not baptize infants based upon what your leader understands from the Word of God while the Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists do baptize infants based upon their understanding of the Word of God, which practice is correct?
Baptism symbolizes being dead and then being reborn.
when our head goes under the water it symbolizes death. when we come out. We are born again.and our sin is forgiven.
How can a baby understand the sin issue and the need for salvation?
The practices of Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists JWs, or any other cult or religion have no bearing on my beliefs. My beliefs come straight from biblical principles period
 
Baptism symbolizes being dead and then being reborn.
when our head goes under the water it symbolizes death. when we come out. We are born again.and our sin is forgiven.
How can a baby understand the sin issue and the need for salvation?
The practices of Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists JWs, or any other cult or religion have no bearing on my beliefs. My beliefs come straight from biblical principles period
Baptism isn’t symbollic at all.

II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
 
Baptism isn’t symbollic at all.

II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
Wow impressive. Did you read any of this before you copied it?
mark 16:16 how can an infant believe if he can’t even talk?
 
Show me the word “Trinity” in the Bible. You cannot. It’s not there. I believe in the Trinity because the Church interpreted the Bible verses to mean the Trinity.
The word trinity is not in the bible and that is common knowledge.Why don’t you dust yours off and read those verses? Reading the Word will make you grow leaps and bounds.
 
Now let’s look at the records from one of the Councils which set the Canon, The Council of Carthage:

That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture
Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.
But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:
  • Genesis.
  • Exodus.
  • Leviticus.
  • Numbers.
  • Deuteronomy.
  • Joshua the Son of Nun.
  • The Judges.
  • Ruth.
  • The Kings, iv. books.
  • The Chronicles, ij. books.
  • Job.
  • The Psalter.
  • The Five books of Solomon.
  • The Twelve Books of the Prophets.
  • Isaiah.
  • Jeremiah.
  • Ezechiel.
  • Daniel.
  • Tobit.
  • Judith.
  • Esther.
  • Ezra, ij. books.
  • Macchabees, ij. books.
  • The New Testament.
  • The Gospels, iv. books.
  • The Acts of the Apostles, j. book.
  • The Epistles of Paul, xiv.
  • The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, ij.
  • The Epistles of John the Apostle, iij.
  • The Epistles of James the Apostle, j.
  • The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, j.
  • The Revelation of John, j. book.
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, Boniface (that’s Pope Boniface), and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm

You see, it was the Catholic Church which had the authority to confirm which books were inspired. That is why it is ironic that you want to tell us we misinterpret, misunderstand and contradict Scripture. The Catholic Church was given the authority to determine the Canon and it has the concordant authority to interpret what the Bible says. Propaganda DVDs and Chuck Smith can’t change those facts.
 
Baptism symbolizes being dead and then being reborn.
The Early Church Fathers agreed, being “born again of water and the spirit” means “baptism”. Your understanding of “born again” is a recent invention.
 
Now let’s look at the records from one of the Councils which set the Canon, The Council of Carthage:

That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture
Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.
But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:
  • Genesis.
  • Exodus.
  • Leviticus.
  • Numbers.
  • Deuteronomy.
  • Joshua the Son of Nun.
  • The Judges.
  • Ruth.
  • The Kings, iv. books.
  • The Chronicles, ij. books.
  • Job.
  • The Psalter.
  • The Five books of Solomon.
  • The Twelve Books of the Prophets.
  • Isaiah.
  • Jeremiah.
  • Ezechiel.
  • Daniel.
  • Tobit.
  • Judith.
  • Esther.
  • Ezra, ij. books.
  • Macchabees, ij. books.
  • The New Testament.
  • The Gospels, iv. books.
  • The Acts of the Apostles, j. book.
  • The Epistles of Paul, xiv.
  • The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, ij.
  • The Epistles of John the Apostle, iij.
  • The Epistles of James the Apostle, j.
  • The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, j.
  • The Revelation of John, j. book.
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, Boniface (that’s Pope Boniface), and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm

You see, it was the Catholic Church which had the authority to confirm which books were inspired. That is why it is ironic that you want to tell us we misinterpret, misunderstand and contradict Scripture. The Catholic Church was given the authority to determine the Canon and it has the concordant authority to interpret what the Bible says. Propaganda DVDs and Chuck Smith can’t change those facts.
Could you mention any of the importantant doctrinal truths from the apocrypha that I may be missing?
 
The word trinity is not in the bible and that is common knowledge.Why don’t you dust yours off and read those verses? Reading the Word will make you grow leaps and bounds.
ha! you start to believe that not everything mentioned in the Bible can be ok now. 😃 good for you 👍
 
The Early Church Fathers agreed, being “born again of water and the spirit” means “baptism”. Your understanding of “born again” is a recent invention.
ok sounds good
but how can an infant believe in christ if he can’t speak
mark 16:16
 
Baptism symbolizes being dead and then being reborn.
when our head goes under the water it symbolizes death. when we come out. We are born again.and our sin is forgiven.
How can a baby understand the sin issue and the need for salvation?
The practices of Lutherans, Mormons, Methodists JWs, or any other cult or religion have no bearing on my beliefs. My beliefs come straight from biblical principles period
I know that is what you believe, but that is not what I asked.

From the Word of God:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)

Again, is your pastor rightly dividing the word of truth or is the Lutheran pastor rightly dividing the word of truth?
 
ha! you start to believe that not everything mentioned in the Bible can be ok now. 😃 good for you 👍
Your kidding right!
When you reach maturity in the faith you will realize the bible is the unerring Word of God
 
Newbie1234

No one said our Blessed Mother healed anyone. What was said was there have been cures at Lourdes. Mary appeared to Bernadette and upon digging where she was told water flowed. There have been 67 documented cures coming from Our Lord because He had His Mother appear to Bernadette. Now what would you call this? To me they are mircles worked through Our Blessed Mother by Her Son.

Think about it. Think about what Mother Theresa of Calcutta has done for the people of the world. Think of the number of rosaries she has said and the number of times her prayers have been answered by Our Lord.

Have a good night.

Because of His Passion these things have happened.
Serene
 
The word trinity is not in the bible and that is common knowledge.Why don’t you dust yours off and read those verses? Reading the Word will make you grow leaps and bounds.
When knowledgeable Catholics quote verse after verse, why do you try to suggest that we have not read the Word of God?

We’re obviously familiar with what the Bible says…we’re just explaining to you what it actually means.
 
I know that is what you believe, but that is not what I asked.

From the Word of God:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)

Again, is your pastor rightly dividing the word of truth or is the Lutheran pastor rightly dividing the word of truth?
You seem like a reasonably intelligent person.
If you read mark16:16 could you answer the question of whether an infant could understand the concept of sin and the need for a savior?
I don’t need my pastor to interpret that.
An infant cannot understand the concept of sin so there is no need to baptise an infant. It doesn’yt matter what the lutherans are doing. Can’t you come to this resonable conclusion on your own?
 
You asked about the books that were removed to form the Protestant Bible and the significance of what they contain. Here is what your non-denominational Bible study is missing:

**Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:

Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.

Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”

Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.

Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.

Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.

Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).

Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew - thou has “established strength.”

Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5 - crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation. Hebrew - omits these phrases.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 - and recovering of sight to the blind. Hebrew - the opening of prison to them that are bound.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 - to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised). Hebrew - to let the oppressed go free.

John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 - He gave them “bread” out of heaven to eat. Hebrew - gave them “food” or “grain” from heaven.

John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 - who has believed our “report?” Hebrew - who has believed our “message?”

John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 - lest they should see with eyes…turn for me to heal them. Hebrew - shut their eyes…and be healed.

Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30 - blood and fire and “vapor” of smoke. Hebrew - blood and fire and “pillars” or “columns” of smoke.
Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8 - I saw…tongue rejoiced…dwell in hope… Hebrew - I have set…glory rejoiced…dwell in safety.

There are hundreds of references in the New Testament to books in the Old Testament that you do not have access to in your Protestant Bible study. Here are more:

scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
**
 
When knowledgeable Catholics quote verse after verse, why do you try to suggest that we have not read the Word of God?

We’re obviously familiar with what the Bible says…we’re just explaining to you what it actually means.
What does the the bible actually mean in regards to the trinity doctrine?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top