SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[water]

Off the topic, I have noticed a lot of Anti-Catholic material posted in YouTube and the Web as whole by Evangelical Christians; who are extremely Anti-Catholic in their zeal. Any Catholic who is poorly catechized will be lost and will join those Evangelicals in heart beat.

I truly believe we need to increase the Catholic Renewal Program, and teach our Catholics about what we truly believe. They should know at least the basics about Catholicism.

Otherwise, you’ll have Catholics end up like newbie.

Agreed! but remember that we don’t need to talk bad about what other Christians believe.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The dvd uses the word of God to prove that the apparition of mary appearing all over the world are from satan

“Prove”?

Heh, heh. The Catholic Church itself is tougher and more thorough when it investigates these matters than the producers of your DVD will ever be. The approval of a Marian visitation takes YEARS if it ever comes at all. You might be surprised that MANY alleged apparitions have been rejected.

Remember, the Catholic Church has the responsibility of protecting the faith - and the faithful - from deception.

 

[newbie1234]

You asked about the books that were removed to form the Protestant Bible and the significance of what they contain. Here is what your non-denominational Bible study is missing:

**Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:

Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14** - behold, a “virgin” shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a “young woman” shall conceive.

Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make “His paths straight.” Hebrew - make “level in the desert a highway.”

Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.

Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.

Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.

Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).

Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew - thou has “established strength.”

Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5 - crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation. Hebrew - omits these phrases.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 - and recovering of sight to the blind. Hebrew - the opening of prison to them that are bound.

Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 - to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised). Hebrew - to let the oppressed go free.

John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 - He gave them “bread” out of heaven to eat. Hebrew - gave them “food” or “grain” from heaven.

John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 - who has believed our “report?” Hebrew - who has believed our “message?”

John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 - lest they should see with eyes…turn for me to heal them. Hebrew - shut their eyes…and be healed.

Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30 - blood and fire and “vapor” of smoke. Hebrew - blood and fire and “pillars” or “columns” of smoke.
Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8 - I saw…tongue rejoiced…dwell in hope… Hebrew - I have set…glory rejoiced…dwell in safety.

There are hundreds of references in the New Testament to books in the Old Testament that you do not have access to in your Protestant Bible study. Here are more:

scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html

all these quotes are from books in my bible so what am I missing?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Agreed! but remember that we don’t need to talk bad about what other Christians believe.

Agreed.

 

[tassitus]

Right now on this thread there are about 15 post that I haven’t even seen yet. I can’t read them all answer them all, check out all the links, download programs. you would be waiting an hour for a response. Sorry. I’m only one agaist five.If I am not satisfying you, don’t post here.

Hi, all. I’ve just been silently following along, and cannot help but note that, as far as I can tell, NOT ONCE has a fellow “nondenominational” come to this poor soul’s rescue. Got to hand it to him for his tenacity.

A little more mileage and a lot more understanding, and he will make a BEAUTIFUL Catholic some day, no?

And I applaud you all for your patience.

In peace.

 

[newbie1234]

“Prove”?

Heh, heh. The Catholic Church itself is tougher and more thorough when it investigates these matters than the producers of your DVD will ever be. The approval of a Marian visitation takes YEARS if it ever comes at all. You might be surprised that MANY alleged apparitions have been rejected.

Remember, the Catholic Church has the responsibility of protecting the faith - and the faithful - from deception.

Whatever you do don’t watch that dvd!
But by all means make judgemnts about it.
It really indicates the type of person I am communicating with.

 

[Mannyfit75]

all these quotes are from books in my bible so what am I missing?

That and this;

Scripture

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

 

[Mannyfit75]

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

**Sirach and 2 Maccabees – some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 – Paul says he “thinks” that he has the Spirit of God.
**
**The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament. **

 

[Randy_Carson]

Watch the dvd then you can trash it.

Read a Catholic book on Fatima, then you can trash it.

 

[newbie1234]

Hi, all. I’ve just been silently following along, and cannot help but note that, as far as I can tell, NOT ONCE has a fellow “nondenominational” come to this poor soul’s rescue. Got to hand it to him for his tenacity.

A little more mileage and a lot more understanding, and he will make a BEAUTIFUL Catholic some day, no?

And I applaud you all for your patience.

In peace.

A nondenominational christian would never come to this site.Unless he had an agenda.
I have all day to serve the Lord, everyday.
So keep it coming.
But lets try to use scripture to support our position

 

[lak611]

Whatever you do don’t watch that dvd!
But by all means make judgemnts about it.
It really indicates the type of person I am communicating with.

Jesus gave us the Church which gave us the Bible. You are following traditions of men, which is forbidden in the Bible, since you are “inspired” by a DVD produced by a man named Jim Tetlow.

 

[Mannyfit75]

A nondenominational christian would never come to this site.Unless he had an agenda.
I have all day to serve the Lord, everyday.
So keep it coming.
But lets try to use scripture to support our position

We do, we used the written and unwritten of Word of God. Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. Jesus gave it to us, so we’ll use it to save ourselves…

 

[newbie1234]

Read a Catholic book on Fatima, then you can trash it.

I don’t think I trashed Fatima.
I just think theapparition is the work of Satan.
But I think that of all apparitions of Mary

 

[Randy_Carson]

I looked up the credits for the DVD to see if it was produced by God, and I found that it was produced by Jim Tetlow. I think it is dangerous to begin to put Jim Tetlow on the same level as God. This DVD may use quotes from the Word of God, but it is not inspired.

Apparently, there is some controversy as to the English translation Bible which is quoted in the DVD. As one site warns:

One word of caution to our readers. Tetlow uses the New King James Version for his scripture texts. While we certainly wish he had used the Authorized King James Version for its perfect accuracy, we believe this DVD has such a great message that we are making it available anyway.
http://bookshop.biblebelievers.com/...believers.com/templates/1/images/clear1x1.gif

He didn’t use the King James?

How can anyone be taken seriously if he doesn’t use the King James? How can he be a Christian?

Thanks for the “word of caution”. I might have let my children watch that DVD.

 

[newbie1234]

We do, we used the written and unwritten of Word of God. Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. Jesus gave it to us, so we’ll use it to save ourselves…

How about written only and from the biblical canon. Theother stuff you can discuss with other catholics

 

[Randy_Carson]

Newbie1234-

You seem like a reasonably intelligent person, also. And I’m sure that the pastor at your fellowship is a reasonably intelligent person as is the Lutheran pastor.

Wouldn’t it be somewhat “reasonable” to assume that all of us have studied the word of God in order to follow Paul’s exhortation to “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”?

Your pastor and the Lutheran pastor - both of whom hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura - come to opposite conclusions about the need for infant baptism. Now, if only one of them can be correctly handling the word of truth, that logically means that one of the is not correctly handling the word of truth. Yet they both “study to shew themselves” to be “approved workmen” before God.

Are you saying that one of these men is not a man of God?

bump

 

[newbie1234]

He didn’t use the King James?

How can anyone be taken seriously if he doesn’t use the King James? How can he be a Christian?

Thanks for the “word of caution”. I might have let my children watch that DVD.

i don’t think you should view the dvd under any circumstances. Your head may explode or something

 

[newbie1234]

bump

Yes the lutheran.
if that is what you want me to say than I’m glad I could oblige.Whoopie!

 

[Mannyfit75]

How about written only and from the biblical canon. Theother stuff you can discuss with other catholics

Jesus himself didn’t say, "you should following the Bible Alone.

He said this.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, “he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me.” He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

The Bible didn’t fall from heaven and landed on the laps of the Apostles. The Gospel was spread by the the word of mouth, ORALLY.

So you can’t go by Scripture Alone.