SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[Mannyfit75]

I. Infant Baptism

“And many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years…” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 15:6 (A.D. 110-165).

“And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins.” Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).

“Polycarp declared, 'Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and Saviour?” Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, 9 (A.D. 156).

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).

“I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord.” Polycrates, Fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, V:24:7 (A.D. 190).

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

“[T]herefore children are also baptized.” Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

 

[newbie1234]

That’s the same video I watched on Google Videos!

I thank God for getting me into Catholic Apologists. Had I been an uninformed Catholic, I would be a lost sheep.

The video itself is very typical Protestant Propaganda against the Church.

Wow! You got me. I surrender. That 5 1/2 minutes was enough. Go right ahead and do whatever you want with any or all apparition. Good luck with that.

 

[Eden]

Can a baby understand sin?
He can’t. So he can’t believe.So he doesn’t have to be baptized.What is so hard to understand?

To fill his soul with the grace that has been missing in every newborn infant since the Fall. Baptism physically changes the soul and marks it for Christ. Baptism is not a symbolic gesture, reserved for the professed believer. The history of early Christians baptising their infants is against your new theology.

 

[Mannyfit75]

As you can see from the post above, infant baptism was practiced. It was taught by the Apostles, and handed it down to their successors.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.

CCC 1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.

 

[Eden]

Wow! You got me. I surrender. That 5 1/2 minutes was enough. Go right ahead and do whatever you want with any or all apparition. Good luck with that.

Thanks. I took your suggestion and watched the Jim Tetlow production and reached a very different conclusion than you about the Catholic Church. I suppose that’s all there really is to say on the subject, isn’t it? I would encourage all Catholics here to watch the deceptive documentary tactics of the Calvary Chapel for yourselves. Deception is never from God. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The point of the question is that I did not have to know sacred tradition to know about or prove the trinity doctrine. That is what the whole discussion was about from the beginning if you read posts prior to 317 you’ll see that was what it was about. My point is that we can use the bible to prove trinity doc. Sorry for the misunderstanding

If we were sitting quietly in a coffee shop with our bibles open, I could show you verses for all the Catholic doctrines that you think are unbiblical. This, of course, is not the night for that kind of depth since we’re all running and gunning.

More difficult would be passages like “Peter the rock” and “eat my flesh” and others that are plainly there but simply not understood or flatly rejected. Only the Holy Spirit can help you there.

 

[newbie1234]

I. Infant Baptism

“And many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years…” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 15:6 (A.D. 110-165).

“And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins.” Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).

“Polycarp declared, 'Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and Saviour?” Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, 9 (A.D. 156).

“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).

“I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord.” Polycrates, Fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, V:24:7 (A.D. 190).

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).

“[T]herefore children are also baptized.” Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

Hey dude, I thought we were going to use the bible and Not sacred traditions or writings of early church fathers. Do you read the posts before you copy and paste?

 

[newbie1234]

If we were sitting quietly in a coffee shop with our bibles open, I could show you verses for all the Catholic doctrines that you think are unbiblical. This, of course, is not the night for that kind of depth since we’re all running and gunning.

More difficult would be passages like “Peter the rock” and “eat my flesh” and others that are plainly there but simply not understood or flatly rejected. Only the Holy Spirit can help you there.

How you can get from peter the rock to Pope john paul being infallible is a stretch.

 

[Eden]

How you can get from peter the rock to Pope john paul being infallible is a stretch.

The way you would get from Peter to John Paul is the 263 men in between.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hey dude, I thought we were going to use the bible and Not sacred traditions or writings of early church fathers. Do you read the posts before you copy and paste?

Why are you afraid of the Truth? These Early Christians knew the Apostles better than we do.

 

[Serene]

Newbie 1234

You seemed to be swayed by one “DVD” when the Catholic Church has documents plus tradition going back 2000 years (including the Bible even though you do not use all of it) that is the bases for ALL Christian doctrine. To me it seems as if “the enemy” is the author of the DVD. Do you really believe that God in His wisdom does not still support His People in ways to His Liking. Be it through His Mother or some other vessels? Do you not understand that Our Blessed Mother appears because He wants it to be thus? Do you not understand that Our Mother appears to mainly Catholics because we venerate her? As opposed to divine worship (adoration, latria) given to God only. You must have slept through your Catechism. Just wondering, what kind of grades did you make in Religion? You really do not need to answer that.

Have none of the references that have been given to you meant nothing? All of the Sacred Scripture that has been quoted to you was for naught?

Seeing is believing and many of my prayers have been answered through intercession with the Blessed Virgin Mary. I really feel sorry for you. You will never know how it feels to have your prayers answered by so loving a Mother.

One last question. If you do not want to read any articles by any theologians and only want to use the Bible to prove or disprove your points, why are you listening to “the DVD”?

Peace on earth to men of good will.
Serene

 

[newbie1234]

Thanks. I took your suggestion and watched the Jim Tetlow production and reached a very different conclusion than you about the Catholic Church. I suppose that’s all there really is to say on the subject, isn’t it? I would encourage all Catholics here to watch the deceptive documentary tactics of the Calvary Chapel for yourselves. Deception is never from God. Something to keep in mind.

Great! you saw the whole production or just 5 minutes?
I would be interested in knowing where you got it from?
Did you see the part where the cardinal made mary the Coredemptrix? How about when the said Mary was Queen of heaven. How about what john paul said.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Originally Posted by newbie1234 View Post
How you can get from peter the rock to Pope john paul being infallible is a stretch.

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

This list all the Popes from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI.

Infallible in the Catholic Church means free from err when teaching moral and faith. It doesn’t mean the Popes will be impeccable (meaning free from sinning)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can a baby understand sin?
He can’t. So he can’t believe.So he doesn’t have to be baptized.What is so hard to understand?

What is so hard to understand is how two Protestants who both believe in sola scriptura can come to opposite conclusions about what the Bible says.

The fact is that your pastor can’t be sure that what he understands from the Bible is true; neither can the Lutheran pastor. Neither can you. None of you are infallible in your interpretations. But that’s not how Jesus set things up.

Jesus didn’t write a book, Newbie, he built a Church. An infallible Church charged with proclaiming the gospel and making disciples of all nations.

That Church, and that Church alone, can interpret the scriptures correctly.

Everyone else is just guessing. Incorrectly.

And you’re right. The baby can’t sin and can’t understand what is going on. But his parents can make sure that he is entered into the family of God and washed clean of the stain of original sin that everyone (except Mary!) has inherited from Adam.

This is a logical extension of circumcision in which a Jewish infant entered into the Covenant that God established with his people.

Baptism is not a symbol; it is a sacrament. It washes, regenerates and saves.

How do I know? An infallible Church teaches me so.

 

[Randy_Carson]

How you can get from peter the rock to Pope john paul being infallible is a stretch.

Sure is…almost 2,000 years worth. Amazing what God can do with a bunch of sinners, isn’t it?

But I could explain it to you clearly enough…

 

[Eden]

Great! you saw the whole production or just 5 minutes?
I would be interested in knowing where you got it from?
Did you see the part where the cardinal made mary the Coredemptrix? How about when the said Mary was Queen of heaven. How about what john paul said.

I gave the link to the YouTube excerpt. The excerpt was 10 minutes long. But I could only tolerate the first 5 1/2. If you look back at my original review, I clearly stated that the errors of the producer were too glaring for me to even consider viewing more. I had seen enough to realize this producer and his production have zero credibility.

Mary as Queen of Heaven: Rev. 12:1

Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Wis. 5:16 (not in your Bible) - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

 

[newbie1234]

Newbie 1234

You seemed to be swayed by one “DVD” when the Catholic Church has documents plus tradition going back 2000 years (including the Bible even though you do not use all of it) that is the bases for ALL Christian doctrine. To me it seems as if “the enemy” is the author of the DVD. Do you really believe that God in His wisdom does not still support His People in ways to His Liking. Be it through His Mother or some other vessels? Do you not understand that Our Blessed Mother appears because He wants it to be thus? Do you not understand that Our Mother appears to mainly Catholics because we venerate her? As opposed to divine worship (adoration, latria) given to God only. You must have slept through your Catechism. Just wondering, what kind of grades did you make in Religion? You really do not need to answer that.

Have none of the references that have been given to you meant nothing? All of the Sacred Scripture that has been quoted to you was for naught?

Seeing is believing and many of my prayers have been answered through intercession with the Blessed Virgin Mary. I really feel sorry for you. You will never know how it feels to have your prayers answered by so loving a Mother.

One last question. If you do not want to read any articles by any theologians and only want to use the Bible to prove or disprove your points, why are you listening to “the DVD”?

Peace on earth to men of good will.
Serene

My prayers are answer by el shaddai.
I don’t need Mary
Last answer. the dvd uses the bible to prove that the apparitions are from the enemy. Don’t watch it though. Just trash it. That type of judgement does not give alot of credence to your opinion. Sorry but true.

 

[havemercy]

I did check that and I don’t think that accurately portray the Catholic Church.

Like I said before, the Pope did not officially make an infallible statement of Mary as the Co-redemptrix. He may have said it in his speech but its not in the Church teachings, or in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I run a check on Co-redemptrix in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and it could not locate it.

So like I said, its not officially taught.

Even if it were, it does not assert that Mary is equal to Jesus. She isn’t, and no Pope has never claimed such nonsense.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Great! you saw the whole production or just 5 minutes?
I would be interested in knowing where you got it from?
Did you see the part where the cardinal made mary the Coredemptrix? How about when the said Mary was Queen of heaven. How about what john paul said.

First, you seem to miss the point that we have heard all of this from other sources…one doesn’t have to watch another movie adaptation of Dicken’s Chrismas Carol to know how it will end - whether it is George C. Scott or Kermit the Frog headlining the production.

As for these Marian titles and her role in the economy of salvation, well, it’s a bit late on the east coast for all of that for me. I’m well past turning into a pumpkin, and I can barely type with these vines for fingers.

 

[newbie1234]

I gave the link to the YouTube excerpt. The excerpt was 10 minutes long. But I could only tolerate the first 5 1/2. If you look back at my original review, I clearly stated that the errors of the producer were too glaring for me to even consider viewing more. I had seen enough to realize this producer and his production have zero credibility.

Mary as Queen of Heaven: Rev. 12:1

Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Wis. 5:16 (not in your Bible) - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

The woman in rev 12:1 is the nation of israel common knowledge
Who said mary was the greatest saint of all?
Mary brought jesus into the world.
Jesus brought eternal life.
Rev 2:10 doesn’t even mention Mary?
Do you think I won’t read your post and refute this BS your peddling