SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[Eden]

My prayers are answer by el shaddai.
I don’t need Mary
Last answer. the dvd uses the bible to prove that the apparitions are from the enemy. Don’t watch it though. Just trash it. That type of judgement does not give alot of credence to your opinion. Sorry but true.

The DVD did not prove anything. It’s a documentary, meant to sway the viewer to the point of view of the producer. Since I am familiar with the Protestant arguments against apparitions and the Blessed Virgin and the Catholic response to those charges, I was not persuaded by the video.

 

[LilyM]

My prayers are answer by el shaddai.
I don’t need Mary
Last answer. the dvd uses the bible to prove that the apparitions are from the enemy. Don’t watch it though. Just trash it. That type of judgement does not give alot of credence to your opinion. Sorry but true.

The point is she DID watch it - as did I. There is absolutely nothing in there that hasn’t been flung around by anti-Catholics for hundreds of years to dishnonour the mother of God. I’ve seen every bit of it rehashed dozens of times even on these forums!

As for claiming you don’t need Mary - that seems to be no more than the simple stiff-necked pride of a child who refuses to take its mothers hand when crossing the road. Every child needs their mother. My mother is 63 - she certainly still needs her mother, and would cheerfully admit it herself. I’m 33 and still need my mother, I’m happy to admit it too.

Mary is our spiritual mother, given to us explicitly by Christ to be so in the words he spoke to her and John from the Cross. We need her as much as Christ did as a baby!

Spiritually none of us will ever amount to more than a helpless, dependent baby. We are nothing in ourselves, and that IS in scripture. Everything we are, we are through Christ, and Christ came to us through Mary by his own choice. He chose to be utterly dependent on her and submissive to her.

If Christ himself could be so utterly trusting and dependent on Mary, who are you to be so prideful as to say you trust her less than he did?

 

[newbie1234]

First, you seem to miss the point that we have heard all of this from other sources…one doesn’t have to watch another movie adaptation of Dicken’s Chrismas Carol to know how it will end - whether it is George C. Scott or Kermit the Frog headlining the production.

As for these Marian titles and her role in the economy of salvation, well, it’s a bit late on the east coast for all of that for me. I’m well past turning into a pumpkin, and I can barely type with these vines for fingers.

Thank you for all your posts. Sorry to keep you up so late. But you don’t have to explain to me all the different names of the apparition. I already know what it is all about.

 

[Eden]

The woman in rev 12:1 is the nation of israel common knowledge
Who said mary was the greatest saint of all?
Mary brought jesus into the world.
Jesus brought eternal life.
Rev 2:10 doesn’t even mention Mary?
Do you think I won’t read your post and refute this BS your peddling

Are you saying Jesus is a saint? He is God - greater than a saint. I don’t understand your objection to the idea that Mary is the greatest saint of all. She is the Mother of God, afterall.
Protestants fail to realize that the woman in Revelation is Mary. With the title of “Queen of Heaven”, I would like to suggest that you research the Old Testament tradition of the “queen mother” in the Davidic kingdom.

 

[Eden]

I just wanted to point out that newbie’s assertion that s/he does “not need Mary” is interesting. Consider the fact that God did not need to become incarnate through Mary. Yet that is how He chose to walk among us. Newbie is missing the huge significance of God’s choice in coming to us as man Incarnate through Mary. Essentially, s/he’s also questioning the wisdom of God.

 

[newbie1234]

The point is she DID watch it - as did I. There is absolutely nothing in there that hasn’t been flung around by anti-Catholics for hundreds of years to dishnonour the mother of God. I’ve seen every bit of it rehashed dozens of times even on these forums!

As for claiming you don’t need Mary - that seems to be no more than the simple stiff-necked pride of a child who refuses to take its mothers hand when crossing the road. Every child needs their mother. My mother is 63 - she certainly still needs her Mother, and would cheerfully admit it herself. I’m 33 and still need my mother, I’m happy to admit it too.

Mary is our spiritual mother, given to us just as she was given to John from the Cross. We need her as much as Christ did as a baby!

Spiritually none of us will ever amount to more than a helpless, dependent baby. We are nothing in ourselves, and that IS in scripture. Everything we are, we are through Christ, and Christ came to us through Mary by his own choice. He chose to be utterly dependent on her and submissive to her.

If Christ himself could be so utterly trusting and dependent on Mary, who are you to be so prideful as to say you trust her less than he did?

First of all I have a mother and I love her. I do not need a spiritual mother. I have the Holy Spirit and Jesus and The Father. YOU NEED A SPRITUAL MOTHER. YOU NEED SAINTS TO PRAY FOR YOU AND A SCAPULAR AND STATUES AND ROSARIES AND CANDLES. GOOD LUCK WITH ALL THOSE TRINKETS.

 

[newbie1234]

Are you saying Jesus is a saint? He is God - greater than a saint. I don’t understand your objection to the idea that Mary is the greatest saint of all. She is the Mother of God, afterall.
Protestants fail to realize that the woman in Revelation is Mary. With the title of “Queen of Heaven”, I would like to suggest that you research the Old Testament tradition of the “queen mother” in the Davidic kingdom.

Jesus is not a saint. He is God.
If you want to read about the queen of heaven and what God will do to those who venerate her, open your bible to jer44:17-22.

 

[Eden]

First of all I have a mother and I love her. I do not need a spiritual mother. I have the Holy Spirit and Jesus and The Father. YOU NEED A SPRITUAL MOTHER. YOU NEED SAINTS TO PRAY FOR YOU AND A SCAPULAR AND STATUES AND ROSARIES AND CANDLES. GOOD LUCK WITH ALL THOSE TRINKETS.

Firstly, why are you shouting? We can hear you without the capital letters.

Secondly, do you ask people to pray for you? If so, are you not using them as subordinate mediators to the Father? As far as needing saints to pray for me, yes, I can use all the prayers I can get. Like, St. Paul, I’m working out my Salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The woman in rev 12:1 is the nation of israel common knowledge
Who said mary was the greatest saint of all?
Mary brought jesus into the world.
Jesus brought eternal life.
Rev 2:10 doesn’t even mention Mary?
Do you think I won’t read your post and refute this BS your peddling

The Book of Revelation has a lot of symbolicism in it.

It is correct that the woman clothed with the sun is the Israel, the Church, and Mary.

You also failed to realized that John wrote the the Book of Revelation. In the Gospel of John, he often address Mary as woman.

John Chapter 1:2-4. And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

John Chapter 19:26: When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

Revelation Chapter 12:1-2

And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

If you interpret this passage in a literal sense the woman is Mary.

The woman gave birth to a male child who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The King is Jesus.

Rev 12:5 “she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,”

This male child who was caught up to God is Jesus who is now at the right hand of the Father. So we know for sure this child is Jesus.

Israel didn’t gave birth to Jesus if you want interpret
this in a literal sense.

The main characters are:

Literal:

1. Child: Jesus Rev 12: 13
2. Woman: Mary Rev 12:1
3. Dragon: Satan Rev 12:9

 

[Eden]

Jesus is not a saint. He is God.

Glad to see we agree. Jesus is God. The greatest saint is His Mother.

If you want to read about the queen of heaven and what God will do to those who venerate her, open your bible to jer44:17-22.

I have read Jer. 44 many times. The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Daniel 2:37), yet this doesn’t preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rev. 17:14; 19:16).

Since the destiny of all Christians is to reign as kings and queens with Christ in heaven (Eph. 2:12; Rev. 1:6; 5:10), and since Mary is the preeminent Christian, there’s nothing wrong with giving her the title which Christ, the King of kings, bestowed upon her in making Mary his mother.

 

[havemercy]

Firstly, why are you shouting? We can hear you without the capital letters.

We can’t hear him/her at all, actually.

YOU NEED A SPRITUAL MOTHER. YOU NEED SAINTS TO PRAY FOR YOU AND A SCAPULAR AND STATUES AND ROSARIES AND CANDLES. GOOD LUCK WITH ALL THOSE TRINKETS.

No, you don’t, but you have one. And you don’t need brothers and sisters in heaven to love you, but you have them. You aren’t being force-fed this by God, but he has made so much available to us all through his grace, and we should be so happy to have it all! If you’re smart, you’ll receive what God has to give you through the infinite and eternal merits of His only Son.

In Christ,

 

[Mannyfit75]

We can’t hear him/her at all, actually.

He need charity… Good Christian Charity… I think he is losing his marbles because he can’t convince us that we are wrong.

 

[newbie1234]

The Book of Revelation has a lot of symbolicism in it.

It is correct that the woman clothed with the sun is the Israel, the Church, and Mary.

You also failed to realized that John wrote the the Book of Revelation. In the Gospel of John, he often address Mary as woman.

John Chapter 1:2-4. And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

John Chapter 19:26: When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

Revelation Chapter 12:1-2

And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

If you interpret this passage in a literal sense the woman is Mary.

The woman gave birth to a male child who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The King is Jesus.

Rev 12:5 “she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,”

This male child who was caught up to God is Jesus who is now at the right hand of the Father. So we know for sure this child is Jesus.

Israel didn’t gave birth to Jesus if you want interpret
this in a literal sense.

The main characters are:

Literal:

1. Child: Jesus Rev 12: 13
2. Woman: Mary Rev 12:1
3. Dragon: Satan Rev 12:9

The woman in rev 12:1 is the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes. This is escatology 101. Common knowledge. it is not refering to mary.Jesus was born out of the nation of Israel. Yes mary was his natural mother but the passage is refering to the nation of Israel.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The woman in rev 12:1 is the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes. This is escatology 101. Common knowledge. it is not referring to mary.Jesus was born out of the nation of Israel. Yes Mary was his natural mother but the passage is referring to the nation of Israel.

Both interpretation are correct. But literally speaking the woman is Mary. You need to interpret Scripture at its full context in union with the OT and NT.

As for Mary’s Queenship, that’s not even a question for orthodox Christians who have any understanding of the Old Testament. In OT times, the Queen of Israel was not the King’s wife (because the king had many wives – a harem), but rather his mother:

2 Kings 10:13 -- " ' We are kinsmen of Ahaziah,' they replied. 'We are going down to visit the princes and the family of the queen mother."

Song of Songs (Songs of Solomon) 3:11 --"Daughters of Jerusalem, come forth and look upon King Solomon. In the crown which his mother has crowned him, on the day of his marriage, on the day of the joy of his heart."

Jeremiah 13:18 -- "Say to the king and to the queen mother: 'Come down from your throne.' "

1 Kings 15:13 -- "He also deposed Maacah from her position as queen mother."

If Christ is the legitimate Messianic King of the true Israel (the Church / Heaven), then Mary is the Queen Mother. This is what the ancient Church believed, and we can multiply examples in the patristic witness, if anyone is interested.

Let me point out a couple things on Mary as “Co-Redemptrix” and “Mediatrix of all grace.” First, all “Co-redemptrix” and “Mediatrix of all grace” refer to is the aspect of redemption that is shared by Christ with His Church, and is exercised by all Christians to one degree or another. For example, in Colossians 1:24, St. Paul says:

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST, on behalf of His Body, which is the Church."

Here what St. Paul is saying is that he is offering up his own sufferings on behalf of his fellow Christians in order to make up for the one and only thing that is “lacking” in Christ’s redeeming Sacrifice on the Cross, which is OUR CONTINUAL ACCEPTANCE of that Sacrifice. This is why Catholics believe that our struggles, sufferings, and hardships can be offered up for the good and salvation of other Christians; and that the merits of the saints in Heaven (that is, their loving and willing total acceptance of Christ) can be applied to others via their prayers.

It’s in this sense, as the most perfect of all Christians, and as the image of the Church herself (Revelations 12:1-3) that the Virgin Mary is Co-Redemptrix with Christ (because the Church herself is such a Co-Redemptrix) and Mediatrix of all grace (because the Church herself is such a Mediatrix of all grace). That is the nature of the Christian mystery before us. At the moment (6/11/02), the doctrines of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all grace are merely theological opinions within the Church, stemming from traditional Catholic theology and resting upon the Apostolic Deposit of Faith (e.g. Colossians 1:24, etc).

 

[newbie1234]

Glad to see we agree. Jesus is God. The greatest saint is His Mother.

I have read Jer. 44 many times. The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Daniel 2:37), yet this doesn’t preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rev. 17:14; 19:16).

Since the destiny of all Christians is to reign as kings and queens with Christ in heaven (Eph. 2:12; Rev. 1:6; 5:10), and since Mary is the preeminent Christian, there’s nothing wrong with giving her the title which Christ, the King of kings, bestowed upon her in making Mary his mother.

Who ever said mary was the preeminent christian.
What is the greatest sacrifice one can do for another?
ANS>To give up his life.
There have been thousands of christians who gave up their lives for their faith. Paul being one of them. What was the great sacrifice that mary made?
How can she all of a sudden become greater than paul. What was her great sacrifice?

 

[Eden]

We can’t hear him/her at all, actually.

I should edit myself by saying that newbie has not posted anything we have never heard. So, in that sense, s/he doesn’t need to shout. We’ve heard it all before. And these same, tired accusations against the Church have been refuted here many times before.

 

[havemercy]

That is one interpretation of Revelation 12, which can be found in Catholic tradition along-side the interpetation that the woman is Mary. There’s nothing stopping us from believing that the women clothed in the sun is Mary and Israel (or the Church).

newbie1234:

How can she all of a sudden become greater than paul. What was her great sacrifice?

There is nothing sudden about it. Mary is, very simply, the most graced human to have ever been, and was God’s first love.

Now about sacrifice. How about watching her own son die the way he did before her very eyes? The Gospel according to Luke gives us some indication of the great pain she endured (or was going to) with her son. When Mary and Joseph presented the baby Jesus at the Temple, Simeon rejoiced that his eyes had seen God’s salvation, but he prophesied that the child would be a sign of contradiction. Then he looked at Mary and said to her: “And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:34)

Peace of Christ,

 

[Mannyfit75]

How can she all of a sudden become greater than paul. What was her great sacrifice?

Did Paul brought forth the savior in this world, or was it a virgin name Mary?

I think Mary is greater because she said “Be it Done unto me according to Your Word.” With that, she became the Mother of Jesus Christ.

I doubt Paul could have converted to Christian if Mary didn’t accept God’s will to be the Mother of Jesus.

 

[LilyM]

First of all I have a mother and I love her. I do not need a spiritual mother. I have the Holy Spirit and Jesus and The Father. YOU NEED A SPRITUAL MOTHER. YOU NEED SAINTS TO PRAY FOR YOU AND A SCAPULAR AND STATUES AND ROSARIES AND CANDLES. GOOD LUCK WITH ALL THOSE TRINKETS.

You know what they say about children who grow up without mother and father - they don’t learn to relate to people especially well

Way to go with the shouting and the gross assumptions about me by the way. When did I ever mention trinkets? I don’t own or pray in front of a statue or wear a scapular :nope:

Nor did I ever mention NEEDING any of the things you mentioned, although I use some of them sometimes (not always) because I like to do so, which is a different proposition entirely.

I do, however, need Mary’s and the saints prayers, and yours if you’ll agree to pray for me. And you need the prayers of every righteous man that you come into contact with too. Whether or not you choose to believe so.

Check your bible again - all of the writers of the Epistles command us to pray for and with each other, and Paul asks for prayers for himself for sure. If he wanted and seems to think he needed people’s prayers, what has you so convinced that you don’t??

You’ll also come across faithful Christians who touched Jesus’ robe and thereby were healed, who used napkins and handkerchiefs of Paul’s to do healings with and who desperately try simply to get in Peter’s route so that his shadow might fall on them, such was its power. Was any of this condemned? Not at all. Sacred objects (which you dismiss as trinkets) can and do have PHYSICAL properties of healing - of course they can heal us spiritually, when properly used, as well!

 

[newbie1234]

Both interpretation are correct. But literally speaking the woman is Mary. You need to interpret Scripture at its full context in union with the OT and NT.

As for Mary’s Queenship, that’s not even a question for orthodox Christians who have any understanding of the Old Testament. In OT times, the Queen of Israel was not the King’s wife (because the king had many wives – a harem), but rather his mother:

2 Kings 10:13 -- " ' We are kinsmen of Ahaziah,' they replied. 'We are going down to visit the princes and the family of the queen mother."

Song of Songs (Songs of Solomon) 3:11 --"Daughters of Jerusalem, come forth and look upon King Solomon. In the crown which his mother has crowned him, on the day of his marriage, on the day of the joy of his heart."

Jeremiah 13:18 -- "Say to the king and to the queen mother: 'Come down from your throne.' "

1 Kings 15:13 -- "He also deposed Maacah from her position as queen mother."

If Christ is the legitimate Messianic King of the true Israel (the Church / Heaven), then Mary is the Queen Mother. This is what the ancient Church believed, and we can multiply examples in the patristic witness, if anyone is interested.

Let me point out a couple things on Mary as “Co-Redemptrix” and “Mediatrix of all grace.” First, all “Co-redemptrix” and “Mediatrix of all grace” refer to is the aspect of redemption that is shared by Christ with His Church, and is exercised by all Christians to one degree or another. For example, in Colossians 1:24, St. Paul says:

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST, on behalf of His Body, which is the Church."

Here what St. Paul is saying is that he is offering up his own sufferings on behalf of his fellow Christians in order to make up for the one and only thing that is “lacking” in Christ’s redeeming Sacrifice on the Cross, which is OUR CONTINUAL ACCEPTANCE of that Sacrifice. This is why Catholics believe that our struggles, sufferings, and hardships can be offered up for the good and salvation of other Christians; and that the merits of the saints in Heaven (that is, their loving and willing total acceptance of Christ) can be applied to others via their prayers.

It’s in this sense, as the most perfect of all Christians, and as the image of the Church herself (Revelations 12:1-3) that the Virgin Mary is Co-Redemptrix with Christ (because the Church herself is such a Co-Redemptrix) and Mediatrix of all grace (because the Church herself is such a Mediatrix of all grace). That is the nature of the Christian mystery before us. At the moment (6/11/02), the doctrines of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all grace are merely theological opinions within the Church, stemming from traditional Catholic theology and resting upon the Apostolic Deposit of Faith (e.g. Colossians 1:24, etc).

Both interpretation cannot be correct. The woman cannot be both Israel and Mary. Verse six goes on to say that the woman fled to the wilderness for1260 days. This is end time prophecy where the nation of israel will run out of Jerusalem when attacked. Israel fleeing during the end times is backed up with other scripture dan 12:7. Mary is in heaven how could she flee into the wilderness.