SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[dbacks5439]

I read the bible in light of sacred Tradition. If you read the bible alone, it is dark and there are many ways to see it. With Sacred Tradition, you now have a light so you can see the verses clearly. There is one Light, One Spirit, One Church.

Also, take a look at 2 Tim. 3:15. “and that from infancy you have known [the] sacred Scriptures.” So you say that babies can’t understand the bible? “which are capable of giving you wisdom…” He used capable, not will. The scriptures can give you wisdom, but in light of Sacred Tradition. You have been mislead by the darkness.**

Please respond to my assertation of reading scripture in light of Sacred Tradition.

 

[newbie1234]

Newbie, read Jude 1:19. I think that verse is talking about protestants. Why else would there be so much division among protestants, and yet the Catholic Church has only witnessed 2 schisms?

So protestants walk in their own unGodly lusts and thats why they left Catholicism?

 

[dbacks5439]

Newbie does not believe in Sola Scriptura either. He said that if he is confused about a passage, he goes to his minister. If he believed in Sola Scriptura, he would not need to consult with a minister to understand a passage.

Yeah, he gives his pastor authority. He just made his pastor the pope!

 

[noma]

Ex-Cathedra is apostolic in origin.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Until, of course, you set up a thread, say in the Orthodox board, or on the Apologetics Board, discussing what this authority really means, and if it means what you think it means.

 

[Mannyfit75]

see post 636

2 Tim 3:16 doesn’t prove Sola Scriptura. I already refute this verse.

All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice. 2 Tim 3:16

Nowhere does this passage say, scripture alone. It does say scripture is inspired of God, which is a true statement. It is also profitable, and can be used for reference. But it doesn’t say it the sole authority on all matters.

 

[newbie1234]

Please respond to my assertation of reading scripture in light of Sacred Tradition.

There is no need to read scripture through sacred tradition. In fact I don’t even know what that means. I open my bible and read it. It speaks clearly to me. If you mean that when I read my bible and it disagrees with sacred tradtion then I must lean toward tradition (which I believe is the Catholic position) Then I do not agree

 

[dbacks5439]

So protestants walk in their own unGodly lusts and thats why they left Catholicism?

Martin Luther went his own way. Rejected the truth, others followed him, and the divisions began. I wouldn’t say lusts. I would use the word disillusioned. Also read the verse before that. Verses 17 and 18, "But you, beloved, remember the words SPOKEN beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, for they TOLD you, "In [the] last time…

I think that pretty much refutes post 636 or whatever post you love to refer to.

 

[LilyM]

So protestants walk in their own unGodly lusts and thats why they left Catholicism?

Well they found plenty to criticise and dislike in the Church - not necessarily for unGodly reasons (there were some things which needed reform and were reformed). But so have plenty of our own Popes and Saints - the best action is to try and reform from within, since it is the unified Church, and not any particular individual, who is guaranteed protection against the gates of hell.

Misled certainly - every bible-totin spirit-led believer out there will come up with a slightly different take on Scripture when left to their own devices. That in itself shows that self-interpretation cannot be God’s plan.

 

[dbacks5439]

Scripture and Sacred Tradition go hand in hand. Tradition reveals scripture, scripture contains Tradition.

 

[newbie1234]

2 Tim 3:16 doesn’t prove Sola Scriptura. I already refute this verse.

All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice. 2 Tim 3:16

Nowhere does this passage say, scripture alone. It does say scripture is inspired of God, which is a true statement. It is also profitable, and can be used for reference. But it doesn’t say it the sole authority on all matters.

This is getting monotonous. See post 636
read verse 17 then read my comment

 

[newbie1234]

Which Epistle of Paul do you want me to give you? If you want a real challenge, I’ll give you the Epistles from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Go right ahead I will use my translation though.
I welcome the challenge

 

[dbacks5439]

Not everything has to be written down to be profitable. Even after verse 19 there is no mention of scripture. Verse 20, “But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God and wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.” Verse 25 hits home. “to the only God, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, power, and authority from ages past, now, and for ages to come. Amen.”

Not one word mentioning scripture. So by adhering to scriptures being the authority, you are refuting these verses. Quite the paradox.

 

[newbie1234]

Martin Luther went his own way. Rejected the truth, others followed him, and the divisions began. I wouldn’t say lusts. I would use the word disillusioned. Also read the verse before that. Verses 17 and 18, "But you, beloved, remember the words SPOKEN beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, for they TOLD you, "In [the] last time…

I think that pretty much refutes post 636 or whatever post you love to refer to.

The words of the apostles are written in the nt aren’t they?

 

[LilyM]

This is getting monotonous. See post 636
read verse 17 then read my comment

Yes we’ve all read the verse - it says you need scripture to be complete as a Christian. Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

Just like you need your right leg to be complete in body.

Doesn’t mean you don’t ALSO need your left leg!! Not to mention your arms, internal organs and all the rest.

So a Christian needs Scripture, also tradition and the teaching authority of the Apostolic churches.

 

[newbie1234]

Not everything has to be written down to be profitable. Even after verse 19 there is no mention of scripture. Verse 20, “But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God and wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.” Verse 25 hits home. “to the only God, our savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, power, and authority from ages past, now, and for ages to come. Amen.”

Not one word mentioning scripture. So by adhering to scriptures being the authority, you are refuting these verses. Quite the paradox.

Are you now saying the bible contradicts itself?

 

[dbacks5439]

BTW, the person who receives this glory, majesty, power, and authority is the person who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you unblemished and exultant is the Pope. Protestants stumble constantly and the divisions are the result. Catholic Church has not stumbled, and that is because of the Pope. He is the rock, he is our foundation. Amazing. Thanks again Newbie. I think all of us have found a stronger faith because of you. Thanks for helping us bring these verses to our attention.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is getting monotonous. See post 636
read verse 17 then read my comment

I did but it doesn’t say “alone.” The word alone to me doesn’t make sense. It’s always been Scripture Alone and Faith Alone. The Alone is my issue. Why is it an issue? Because its not in the Bible. You’ll find faith alone in James but that verse disprove faith alone.

So the discussion on 2 Tim 3:16-17 is done. It doesn’t prove the Bible is the SOLE authority on all matters. I’m not convince. The argument is even false… and doesn’t make sense.

The Catholic interpretation makes perfect sense.

 

[newbie1234]

Yes we’ve all read the verse - it says you need scripture to be complete as a Christian. Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

Just like you need your right leg to be complete in body.

Doesn’t mean you don’t ALSO need your left leg!! Not to mention your arms, internal organs and all the rest.

So a Christian needs Scripture, also tradition and the teaching authority of the Apostolic churches.

The verse says I can be complete using scripture alone.

 

[dbacks5439]

you make it contradict itself by making it the sole authority

 

[dbacks5439]

The words of the apostles are written in the nt aren’t they?

where are they written?