SPLIT: God commanded death of unborn and pregnant women

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Leela

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ted_ray:
“I knew you in the womb!”
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         God
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That is often quoted by anti-abortionists. It is interesting to me that the Bible doesn’t get any more specific than this about abortion and that this quote is about al they can point to on the subject. You would think abortion could have made the top 10 (instead of, say, neighor’s wife coveting.)

But God doesn’t seem so pro-life overall…

“O Babylon, you devastator,
Happy shall they be who pay
you back
what you have done to us!
Happy shall be they who take
your little ones
and dash them against the rock!” Psalm

“The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” Hosea 9:11-16

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

“And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.” Exodus 12:29-30

“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.” Isaiah 13:15-18

I’m sure you all know that I could dig out such quotes all day long to contradict any Biblical opposition to abortion.

Best,
Leela
 
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st_lucy:
Actually it made the top five.

Thou shall not kill.
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It is my understanding that in Christian theology, all killing is not murder. From the quotes I posted, it is clear that God not only sometimes condones killing babies, but he even occasionally comands it.
 
Leela said:
It is my understanding that in Christian theology, all killing is not murder. From the quotes I posted, it is clear that God not only sometimes condones killing babies, but he even occasionally comands it.
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Point to me where God has commanded that one kill a baby. Killing in self defense or in war. But what has the unborn done to violently rip off his arms and legs while he is still alive.

What gets me is no one would ever let this happen to any other animal in this world but yet they try to defend a women when she pays someone to have this done to her own child.

If you are so pro-choice, would stand by when I go out side chain my dog to a post and precede to butcher him limb by limb until I reach his head? I mean it is my choice. He is my dog. He is totally dependent on me to survive.
 
st_lucy said:
Point to me where God has commanded that one kill a baby.
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I guess you didn’t read the quotes that I posted, like this:

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.” Ezekiel 9:5

“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”–Psalm 137:9

Here are a bunch more:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
st_lucy said:
If you are so pro-choice, would stand by when I go out side chain my dog to a post and precede to butcher him limb by limb until I reach his head? I mean it is my choice. He is my dog. He is totally dependent on me to survive.
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You’ve got it wrong. It isn’t I who does such things, it is the Biblical God. I am opposed to ripping legs off animals including the sorts of abortions you are talking about.

Best,
Leela
 
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Highwayhound:
None of the above biblical passages describe the taking of life in the womb. Have you in your study of Christian theology and the Bible ever come across an example of in the womb killing?
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The thing is that in the Bible killing, a baby in the womb is not really considered killing a baby, so no mention of womb-killing is possible. It was just not worth mentioning. But of course killing a pregnant woman is also killing the unborn, and there are lots of examples of that. (Clearly there must have been some pregnant women in Soddom, Gommorah, Jericho, Ai, and at the time that God decided to destroy nearly all of humanity in the Great Flood.)

The closest example of the Bible dealing directly with taking life in the womb is here:

22Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage [a] as the result of an injury caused by someone who is fighting. If she isn’t badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and the judges approve. 23But if she is seriously injured, the payment will be life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, cut for cut, and bruise for bruise. Ex. 21:22-25

Here the Bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but a fine for the expulsion of a fetus.

Note that Jewish tradition also has a taboo against baby showers or any gifts for the unborn as well as naming a baby before it is born.

Again, let me emphasize that I am not promoting a Biblical view on life matters. In fact, I think that would be pretty scary [edited].

Best,
Leela
 
st_lucy said:
Point to me where God has commanded that one kill a baby.
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If you are looking for any more Biblical evidence that the unborn and even very young babies babies were not viewed as people, note that the Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. – Leviticus 27:6

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. – Numbers 3:15-16

And here are a few more quotes to answer the direct question about when God ever commanded killing the babies or the unborn:

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. – Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
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Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
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Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
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The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
God’s law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
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Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24
Best,
Leela
 
“You would think abortion could have made the top 10 (instead of, say, neighor’s wife coveting.)”

It did make the top 10 “Thou shalt not kill” or a more accurate translation, “thou shalt not murder (kill the innocent)”.

You cannot compare yourself to God, even if you don’t believe that God exists.

To use Sacred Scripture, and to take the Word of God out of context to justify your unbelief in God is absurd.

You have been given the freedom of “choice” to deny God by God Himself, because He loves you.

No one can justify mothers and fathers murdering their own innocent babies, never!!!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
 
I don’t understand why so many people wrestle with this one. God kills people constantly. Lightning – God’s fault – volcanoes – God’s fault – earthquakes – God’s fault – plague – God’s fault. He’s allowed to kill all He wants. He’s God.
 
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