SPLIT: God ordered deaths in the Old Testament

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But then, in a manner of speaking, PJM may have good cause to reflect. According to a bar graph I just saw, compiled by someone claiming to take the time to count and make a reasonable estimate, we can use the Bible as documentation that while in its pages Satan killed a whopping 10 people, God killed a mere 2,391,000 plus. Go figure. No, really. Go figure.

(Bindar D. sits back and twiddles his thumbs, waiting for someone to ask the obvious question. No, not that one, silly, the other one.)
 
we can use the Bible as documentation that while in its pages Satan killed a whopping 10 people, God killed a mere 2,391,000 plus. Go figure. No, really. Go figure.

I have figured that Satan, in the Garden of Eden, brought about the death of the entire human race.

It was Christ who brought hope and salvation to everyone who would have it.
 
I think one of themean things God did was intentionally harden Pharoah’s heart so that he would not let the Israelites go, and then used the fact that Pharoah wasn’t letting the Israelites go(which God had caused), as an excuse to unleash horrible death and destruction upon the Egyptians.
 
So far CII is “warmest,” having made a statement that bears the seed of an actual question of interest regarding the thread topic and the data. But our minds are like haystacks. Imagine, for instance that by admission three quarters of one’s Sacred scriptures are not to be taken literally. What does that imply or make necessary? And what does that say about the veracity of the remaining portion? On what grounds? But back to waiting for the obvious question.
 
teachccd said:
Which part was He so mean: 1) When He gave you (and me) the gift of life or 2) When He sent His Son to die for your (and my) sense of pride and lack of charity so that you (and I) can have eternal life? 🤷 :confused:
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How about when he orders his people to kill women and children? One cannot simply say that God has the right to take life, since although this may be true, this still doesn’t explain why God orders “people” to slay women and children?

This is a populor argeument floating around the internet. It is an arguement that i still find difficult to answer.

I’m not saying that there isn’t a positive answer to this, but one must allow one the dignity of thinking this to be mean; since it strikes at the very heart of our moral sensibility. Its difficult to reconcile with the loving acts of Jesus. Thats why some religious sects in the past suspected that the old testement God was evil and the new testement God was Good.

There you go. Thats something to wrap you head around.
 
Whenever people bring up the OT stories about God ordering the death of various people this kind of unfair comparison with the NT is always brought up. Sometimes it’s merely done as a stick with which to attack God–a silly thing to do, IMHO based solely on one’s own understanding of a cold reading of any text, be Scripture or anything else.

The OT was written in its time and by people of its time, as was the NT. And the time of the OT was one of strict justice for those who would not worship God alone. We think of God as if he were a kindly old grandpa who just wants to make everyone happy. That’s not the case. Love is fierce not sweet. Justice is exacting not wishy-washy. Truth is absolute, not whatever we want it to be. And we see that demonstrated quite vividly in the OT stories.

The NT is the Age of Grace, when God’s mercy has been poured out upon UNDESERVING humanity. None of us deserves life, but death. However, God sent his Word, Christ, to make the ultimate sacrifice so that justice can be tempered with mercy and love can be warm instead of fierce and truth can be told in charity and not enforced with the sword.

People who have no faith/no understanding of these things cannot judge what God should or shouldn’t have done/or do in our day. God will do as God thinks best. It is WE who need to be conforming ourselves to God and not vice versa.
 
I, a devout Catholic, say that God kills. See Exodus 12:29.
 
I’ll stick my neck out and say that when God kills people in the OT, either directly or indirectly, it is punishment. Yes, there is retribution obvious, as in the killing of the Egyptian soldiers who were pursuing the Israelites. But, He didn’t just kill them, He killed them in a way to frustrate their practice of religion - the death in the water frustrated their whole organized method of ritualized burial, etc.

Right from the beginning of Genesis, with the word Elohim used for God, this word emphasizes that God is almighty and that He is the Judge. When God creates something and says that “it is good” He is not flattering Himself, He is judging the result of His action. And, the seven judgments in Gen 1:1 - 2:3 display that God is the ultimate Judge.

There are at least a couple Bible lessons in these deaths: punishment, the sovereignty of God, God’s ways are not man’s ways, etc.

The Bible is explicit about the love of God and His compassion and His mercy. God, it seems, doesn’t confuse them as some of us have a tendency to do, as in this thread.
 
The slaughter of the peoples in Cannan is a particular Old Testament issue that used to trouble me greatly. Then it was pointed out that the Scriptures show that this was definitely not a random or brutal act.

In fact the Cannaanites were tried and judged guilty on the same basis as Israel.

Deuteronomy 9: 4 Do not think to yourself once the lord your God has driven them before you " The lord has brought me into possession of this country because I am upright," when the Lord is dispossessing these nations for you because they do wrong. 5 You are not going into their country to take possession because of any right behaviour or uprightness on your part; rather, it is because of their wickedness…
In using the Israelites to destroy the Amorites and other inhabitants of Canaan, God is using the Israelites as a tool of his punishment of them for their offences. These included sexual immorality, bestiality and incest. (Lev 20: 8-24), and also child sacrifice (Deut.12:29-31.)

Far from being hasty God states to Abraham in Genesis 15 that he shall be exiled from Canaan. The Egyptians will be punished for enslaving the Isaelites, but the Israelites will not take control of Canaan straight away.

Genesis 15:16 In the fourth generation they will come back here, for until then the iniquity of the Amorites will not have reached its full extent.

In other words, in the time of Abraham God was not yet ready to punish the inhabitants of Canaan. The Canaanites and Amorites were given four generations to turn away from sin and perhaps deflect the promised punishment. But they did not, and so they were driven out and slain. The Canaanites were punished for their sins, as much as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorrah - only by other means. God used the Israelites rather than fire.

In fact the same standard was used by God for the Israelites, who were warned to repent when they ruled Palestine, and eventually they were punished and driven out by the Assyrians and the Persians. Later still it was the Romans who destroyed the temple as well as Jerusalem, again for disobedience.
 
Crumpy said:
I’ll stick my neck out and say that when God kills people in the OT, either directly or indirectly, it is punishment. Yes, there is retribution obvious, as in the killing of the Egyptian soldiers who were pursuing the Israelites. But, He didn’t just kill them, He killed them in a way to frustrate their practice of religion - the death in the water frustrated their whole organized method of ritualized burial, etc.
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In Exodus 12:29, He kills Egyptian babies, among other first born males, to punish Pharaoh.

Note that under our traditional Christian ethos, doing this is a great moral crime.

God kills, but for God it is not immoral.
 
Crumpy said:
I’ll stick my neck out and say that when God kills people in the OT, either directly or indirectly, it is punishment. Yes, there is retribution obvious, as in the killing of the Egyptian soldiers who were pursuing the Israelites. But, He didn’t just kill them, He killed them in a way to frustrate their practice of religion - the death in the water frustrated their whole organized method of ritualized burial, etc.

Right from the beginning of Genesis, with the word Elohim used for God, this word emphasizes that God is almighty and that He is the Judge. When God creates something and says that “it is good” He is not flattering Himself, He is judging the result of His action. And, the seven judgments in Gen 1:1 - 2:3 display that God is the ultimate Judge.

There are at least a couple Bible lessons in these deaths: punishment, the sovereignty of God, God’s ways are not man’s ways, etc.

The Bible is explicit about the love of God and His compassion and His mercy. God, it seems, doesn’t confuse them as some of us have a tendency to do, as in this thread.
Click to expand...
Paraphrasing scripture a bit, it says that God shows mercy to the thousandth generation, but He shows punishment even to the third and fourth generation. So, when God punishes various peoples, He executes judgments on all the living generations, to utterly wipe out the pagan practices, blasphemies, etc. so that they will not “be remembered” and rekindled.

In Revelation we are told that in eternity, “things of old” will be forgotten and every tear will be wiped away. I don’t think people in heaven will be whining about how they died or at what age they died. It may not be philosophically and politically correct, but I think children will have adult consciousness in heaven, to fully appreciate the splendor of eternal life.
 
Peter_Dawson said:
In Exodus 12:29, He kills Egyptian babies, among other first born males, to punish Pharaoh.

Note that under our traditional Christian ethos, doing this is a great moral crime.

God kills, but for God it is not immoral.
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Yes, for God as presented in the OT, the end always justifies the means. We just live under a higher moral standard.

Of course it is far more likely that the authors of the OT attributed the deaths to God’s direct intervention while God really had nothing to do with them. Most everything was attributed directly to God in those days - God got direct credit (and blame) for everything that happened.
 
Crumpy said:
Paraphrasing scripture a bit, it says that God shows mercy to the thousandth generation, but He shows punishment even to the third and fourth generation. So, when God punishes various peoples, He executes judgments on all the living generations, to utterly wipe out the pagan practices, blasphemies, etc. so that they will not “be remembered” and rekindled.

In Revelation we are told that in eternity, “things of old” will be forgotten and every tear will be wiped away. I don’t think people in heaven will be whining about how they died or at what age they died. It may not be philosophically and politically correct, but I think children will have adult consciousness in heaven, to fully appreciate the splendor of eternal life.
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Rehashing short-lived theological theories from the middle ages now?
 
patg said:
Yes, for God as presented in the OT, the end always justifies the means. We just live under a higher moral standard.

Of course it is far more likely that the authors of the OT attributed the deaths to God’s direct intervention while God really had nothing to do with them. Most everything was attributed directly to God in those days - God got direct credit (and blame) for everything that happened.
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I think that God can, and does, kill. He is God.
 
Did you assume that something
was wrong with this?

Are you looking at Judaism through a Christian lens?

Learn Judaism, then the actions of
the Jews should make more sence.
 
MindOverMatter said:
How about when he orders his people to kill women and children? One cannot simply say that God has the right to take life, since although this may be true, this still doesn’t explain why God orders “people” to slay women and children?

This is a populor argeument floating around the internet. It is an arguement that i still find difficult to answer.

I’m not saying that there isn’t a positive answer to this, but one must allow one the dignity of thinking this to be mean; since it strikes at the very heart of our moral sensibility. Its difficult to reconcile with the loving acts of Jesus. Thats why some religious sects in the past suspected that the old testement God was evil and the new testement God was Good.

There you go. Thats something to wrap you head around.
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The OT religion was Judaism,
there is nothing wrong with what happened in ot to them.

If your Christian your focus is the
NT.
 
tonsofquestions said:
I think one of themean things God did was intentionally harden Pharoah’s heart so that he would not let the Israelites go, and then used the fact that Pharoah wasn’t letting the Israelites go(which God had caused), as an excuse to unleash horrible death and destruction upon the Egyptians.
Click to expand...
Eternity has no end.
Earth life is apx. 75 years.
So, if God killed or allowed to die ] an individual at age of 18 instead of letting them live ’ three score and ten '. If they merit to live with God in Heaven they’ve just gone to Heaven a bit sooner.
But if they are headed to hell, then likewise, they’ve gone a bit sooner.
Earthly life is a gift , we do not set the terms or longevity. Bible says that , if we have Faith that " everything works for good to those who love God.

As regards Violence - Not instituted by God
But Gos is at work in a world which can be violent and evil.
Hence, God is a Good Friend
And a Bad Enemy

If you think that God has gone soft since Jesus came into the world
You should consider the coming Judgement
And the Reality of Heaven and Hell.🙂
 
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