SPLIT: Great reform movements in Catholic History

  • Thread starter Thread starter Denise1957
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Denise1957

Guest
This actually is not correct. Every major reform has begun with religious orders. There have always been many lay people who have supported these reforms. This is absolutely true. Some have even financed them. It’s not that the laity cannot do it. It’s that the laity has always looked to the religious orders for a cue or to individual religious who were very charismatic: Francis of Assisi, Dominic, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis de Sales, etc…

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Regarding St. Francis, was he actually a religious before he started his work of reform? I thought that he became a religious after he began trying to help with changes.
 
How about St Catherine of Siena?

My how this thread has grown. I’m too tired to read all these posts. 😛
 
How about St Catherine of Siena?
She is the only layman who is a Doctor of the Church…but even with her, you cannot escape the influence of the consecrated religious when it comes to reforming the Church from within.

Saint Catherine of Siena, T.O.S.D. The only lay Doctor is a member of the Third Order of St. Dominic, no less a Dominican than any other.
 
Regarding St. Francis, was he actually a religious before he started his work of reform? I thought that he became a religious after he began trying to help with changes.
Francis starts his life as a lay penitent. The penitent movement was very strong in his day, hence the secular order of Franciscans and later that of the Dominicans. But the actual work of reforming the Church begins long after 1209. The order is recognized in April 1209.
How about St Catherine of Siena?

My how this thread has grown. I’m too tired to read all these posts. 😛
Catherine is not truly a reformer. Her reach was in the area of Ascetical and Mystical Theology, not in Ecclesiology. She is certainly one of the most respect Spiritual Theologians in Church history. But she did not have much influence in converting Catholics to Christianity. Her circle of influence was rather small. It is only after her death, when the Dialogue is revealed that her work reaches beyond Siena.

Whereas, by the time that Francis and Dominic passed, their orders were all over Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. They had turned Catholic education around. The Franciscans and Dominicans ran the most prestigious universities and Europe and were the most sought after scholars. The Franciscans had brought down clericalism. A pity that Vatican I reintroduced it, but that’s another story. The Dominicans penetrated every heresy of the time. By the time that the Franciscans reach their 20th birthday, they already had control of the Church’s government. There was a Franciscan pope and numerous Franciscan bishops and cardinals. We cannot forget St. Pius V who was a Dominican and was very careful in his restoration of the Tridentine form not to step on the toes of the Franciscans or Dominicans.

He allowed the Dominicans to keep their rite. Although the Franciscans never had an actual rite, we had the precursor of what is today the EF. It was known as the Mass of St. Peter, with its own canon, without Gregorian chant, with the priest facing the people and with dialogue. The Franciscans were allowed to keep this mass for use in our houses when the superior general pointed to the pope that St. Dominic had written that the Dominicans must venerate the Franciscans, see not evil in them, accommodate to them in every way and treat them with great kindness. Pope Pius, being a saint was not about to turn his back on his spiritual father.

There was a stronger influence by the friars of both orders than by women like Catherine and Clare, who were outstanding in their own right. I would say that both of them were at the forefront of women’s rights within the Catholic Church. Catherine, of course was a laywoman. However, she was the head of a community of men and women. This was unheard of. She was on intimate terms with popes and bishops, also unheard of.

Clare was also on intimate terms with popes and bishops. She was the only woman superior who ever dared to challenge the liturgy. She explicitly wrote in her rule that Gregorian chant is not to be used during mass or the LOTH, only simple chant and laudas were to be sung. Laudas were hymns of praise. Sort of, but not quite, a Medieval form of Glory and Praise music. It serves the same function, but it’s more subdued.

I think that second to Francis of Assisi, the greatest influence in Church history has been exercised by Francis de Sales. The number of Salesian movements in huge and powerful. It is powerful in numbers and in finances too. There are lay, clerical and religious Salesian movements around the globe. Their greatest contribution to the Church is the spirituality for the laity. St. Francis de Sales is the first to set out an organized spirituality for the laity.

This is rather interesting, because Francis de Sales himself was a devout Secular Franciscan. But the rule of the Secular Franciscans or the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, as the order was known during his time, the rule was too mystical and far above the comprehension of the average layman. We have to remember that this was a time when the average layman was either a laborer, tradesman or a nobleman. None of which had much of an education.

Francis de Sales takes the Rule of Penance and peels it open as one would peel and onion and write the Introduction to the Devout Life. He takes what Francis had written and he explains in a manner that is systematic, user friendly, but does not lose its profoundness. He not only explains, but he gives very clear applications for daily life. He was an absolute master in theology and psychology. His work is a must read for everyone, Catholic or not, who aspires to the devout life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Francis starts his life as a lay penitent. The penitent movement was very strong in his day, hence the secular order of Franciscans and later that of the Dominicans. But the actual work of reforming the Church begins long after 1209. The order is recognized in April 1209.

Catherine is not truly a reformer. Her reach was in the area of Ascetical and Mystical Theology, not in Ecclesiology. She is certainly one of the most respect Spiritual Theologians in Church history. But she did not have much influence in converting Catholics to Christianity. Her circle of influence was rather small. It is only after her death, when the Dialogue is revealed that her work reaches beyond Siena.

Whereas, by the time that Francis and Dominic passed, their orders were all over Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. They had turned Catholic education around. The Franciscans and Dominicans ran the most prestigious universities and Europe and were the most sought after scholars. The Franciscans had brought down clericalism. A pity that Vatican I reintroduced it, but that’s another story. The Dominicans penetrated every heresy of the time. By the time that the Franciscans reach their 20th birthday, they already had control of the Church’s government. There was a Franciscan pope and numerous Franciscan bishops and cardinals. We cannot forget St. Pius V who was a Dominican and was very careful in his restoration of the Tridentine form not to step on the toes of the Franciscans or Dominicans.

He allowed the Dominicans to keep their rite. Although the Franciscans never had an actual rite, we had the precursor of what is today the EF. It was known as the Mass of St. Peter, with its own canon, without Gregorian chant, with the priest facing the people and with dialogue. The Franciscans were allowed to keep this mass for use in our houses when the superior general pointed to the pope that St. Dominic had written that the Dominicans must venerate the Franciscans, see not evil in them, accommodate to them in every way and treat them with great kindness. Pope Pius, being a saint was not about to turn his back on his spiritual father.

There was a stronger influence by the friars of both orders than by women like Catherine and Clare, who were outstanding in their own right. I would say that both of them were at the forefront of women’s rights within the Catholic Church. Catherine, of course was a laywoman. However, she was the head of a community of men and women. This was unheard of. She was on intimate terms with popes and bishops, also unheard of.

Clare was also on intimate terms with popes and bishops. She was the only woman superior who ever dared to challenge the liturgy. She explicitly wrote in her rule that Gregorian chant is not to be used during mass or the LOTH, only simple chant and laudas were to be sung. Laudas were hymns of praise. Sort of, but not quite, a Medieval form of Glory and Praise music. It serves the same function, but it’s more subdued.

I think that second to Francis of Assisi, the greatest influence in Church history has been exercised by Francis de Sales. The number of Salesian movements in huge and powerful. It is powerful in numbers and in finances too. There are lay, clerical and religious Salesian movements around the globe. Their greatest contribution to the Church is the spirituality for the laity. St. Francis de Sales is the first to set out an organized spirituality for the laity.

This is rather interesting, because Francis de Sales himself was a devout Secular Franciscan. But the rule of the Secular Franciscans or the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, as the order was known during his time, the rule was too mystical and far above the comprehension of the average layman. We have to remember that this was a time when the average layman was either a laborer, tradesman or a nobleman. None of which had much of an education.

Francis de Sales takes the Rule of Penance and peels it open as one would peel and onion and write the Introduction to the Devout Life. He takes what Francis had written and he explains in a manner that is systematic, user friendly, but does not lose its profoundness. He not only explains, but he gives very clear applications for daily life. He was an absolute master in theology and psychology. His work is a must read for everyone, Catholic or not, who aspires to the devout life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Some of this stuff is incredibly fascinating (like the Mass of St. Peter and simple laudas), and it makes me sad that this information is not readily available for people to consume. Trying to search for it online yields little information.

Brother JR, are there any books out there that talks about Franciscan liturgy and traditions as they were at the time of Holy Father Francis? I’d love to learn more about them.

Incidentally, while discerning secular orders, my friend Deacon Jim actually recommended to me to read St. Francis de Sales regardless of what I chose. I expected this of course, the man’s going to be ordained to the priesthood with the Salesians in a year or two.
 
Some of this stuff is incredibly fascinating (like the Mass of St. Peter and simple laudas), and it makes me sad that this information is not readily available for people to consume. Trying to search for it online yields little information.

Brother JR, are there any books out there that talks about Franciscan liturgy and traditions as they were at the time of Holy Father Francis?

Incidentally, while discerning secular orders, my friend Deacon Jim actually recommended to me to read St. Francis de Sales regardless of what I chose. I expected this of course, the man’s going to be ordained to the priesthood with the Salesians in a year or two.
St Francis de Sales is awesome. Have you ever read “Introduction to the Devout Life”?
 
Catherine is not truly a reformer. Her reach was in the area of Ascetical and Mystical Theology, not in Ecclesiology. She is certainly one of the most respect Spiritual Theologians in Church history. But she did not have much influence in converting Catholics to Christianity. Her circle of influence was rather small. It is only after her death, when the Dialogue is revealed that her work reaches beyond Siena.
I know she didn’t have a lot of reach, but did she not push for reform, especially among the leadership of the Church?

She is always referred to as “reformer”. In fact, EWTN had a program on her called, “St Catherine of Siena - mystic and reformer.”
 
Some of this stuff is incredibly fascinating (like the Mass of St. Peter and simple laudas), and it makes me sad that this information is not readily available for people to consume. Trying to search for it online yields little information.

Brother JR, are there any books out there that talks about Franciscan liturgy and traditions as they were at the time of Holy Father Francis? I’d love to learn more about them.

Incidentally, while discerning secular orders, my friend Deacon Jim actually recommended to me to read St. Francis de Sales regardless of what I chose. I expected this of course, the man’s going to be ordained to the priesthood with the Salesians in a year or two.
There is a work, very expensive, called History of the Franciscan Order. It has all kinds of neat little trivia along with more important stuff.
I know she didn’t have a lot of reach, but did she not push for reform, especially among the leadership of the Church?

She is always referred to as “reformer”. In fact, EWTN had a program on her called, “St Catherine of Siena - mystic and reformer.”
I saw that on EWTN. I don’ t know why the producer used the term “reformer”. In Church history and theology she is always referred to as a Mystical Theologian. As I said above, she certainly had a close relationship with a number of people in the hierarchy, including the pope; but that was also true of Clare of Assisi. However, when it comes to theology, that’s where Care and Catherine part company. Clare was not a theologian. She was an adovocate for women; whereas Catherine soars in the area of Mystical Theology.

My guess is that the producer may have labeled her as a reformer because of her insistent letter writing to prelates on the need to restore the papacy to Rome and her strong stance among her own people in support of the hierarchy.

She was a very interesting person, almost like a big sister. While her letters to the hierarchy are rather frank, yet humble, she literally whipped any member of her community who dared to make a negative comment about any priest or religious. She always reminds me of the big sister who feels that she alone has the righ tto call you out, because she’s family.

I’m sure that there is much more to Catherine that we still don’t know. The fact is that her letters were not known until long after her death. Unlike her spiritual father, Dominic, she never made public her position on any Church issue or problem. Her communications were directly with those who needed to know. I believe that this is part of what earned her the admiration of the hiearchy and the Holy See. It was clear that she loved the Church, that she was willing to obey even when she thought that the pope’s idea was lunacy, and she was not ranting, because she was so discrete . . . something that we lack today.

I regret that the Lay Dominicans did not follow her way of life more closely. Lay Dominicans like Catherine, Rose of Lima, Martin de Porres and Pierre Giorgio Frasatti have moved many people to a more devout life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
There is a work, very expensive, called History of the Franciscan Order. It has all kinds of neat little trivia along with more important stuff.
Is it this? Because if it is, I’ll gladly pay the fifteen dollars for a used copy.
I regret that the Lay Dominicans did not follow her way of life more closely. Lay Dominicans like Catherine, Rose of Lima, Martin de Porres and Pierre Giorgio Frasatti have moved many people to a more devout life.
I agree. Throw in Monfort and you have a powerhouse of folks.
 
Is it this? Because if it is, I’ll gladly pay the fifteen dollars for a used copy.
Where did you see it for $15? I want to get another copy. Wow!

I paid over $300.00 for it from here

amazon.com/History-Franciscan-Order-Origins-Year/dp/0198264259/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348240285&sr=1-11&keywords=history+of+the+franciscans
I agree. Throw in Monfort and you have a powerhouse of folks.
Another powerhouse. 👍

The most misunderstood theologian in history.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Francis de Sales takes the Rule of Penance and peels it open as one would peel and onion and write the Introduction to the Devout Life. He takes what Francis had written and he explains in a manner that is systematic, user friendly, but does not lose its profoundness. He not only explains, but he gives very clear applications for daily life. He was an absolute master in theology and psychology. His work is a must read for everyone, Catholic or not, who aspires to the devout life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
St Francis de Sales is awesome. Have you ever read “Introduction to the Devout Life”?
“Introduction to the Devout Life” was tranformative for me when I first came back to the Church. It was very practical, and the chapters on the basics of prayer helped me tremendously.

-Tim-
 
This has a list of the available used books. I found a seller who was selling a “good condition” copy for fifteen dollars, but he only had one copy (which is being shipped to my in-laws who ironically live in Florida). Seems as if the next cheapest is around forty or so for a “like new”.

Brother, if you want a copy (assuming you don’t mind a used version), please PM me your address so I can send it to. You have done so much for me these past couple of years, it would mean a lot to me if I could repay you through a gift.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top