SPLIT: Homosexuals are in loving relationships

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TShawn said:
The thing about homosexuality is that it is a choice. - This quote is from Hadassajones. Sorry, I haven’t learned to how to put the quotes in these boxes like the rest of you, :o

Concerning the above quote, I want to ask all those who believe homosexuality is a choice…How old were you when you chose to be heterosexual? Did you have to think about it? Weigh the options pro or con out? - Tshawn
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Homosexuality is a “choice”? whose hypothesis is this? how was it proven? is heterosexuality a choice as well as a corollary? Anyone that throws this argument around as a given is starting off on a weak footing. I am very hetero, but I am not about to assume that homosexuals “chose” to like people of the same sex. That is a silly statement to make, IMO.
 
namikis said:
Homosexuality is a “choice”? whose hypothesis is this? how was it proven? is heterosexuality a choice as well as a corollary? Anyone that throws this argument around as a given is starting off on a weak footing. I am very hetero, but I am not about to assume that homosexuals “chose” to like people of the same sex. That is a silly statement to make, IMO.
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No one is questioning “liking” another person. The fault the Church has is when a person takes 'liking" another person of the same sex into sexual intimacy.

THAT is a choice, and it’s morally evil one that should always be condemned ( like any other evil).

The Church has no problems with a person who is attracted to others of the same sex, as long as they recognize that the relationship must always be a chaste one.
 
namikis said:
Homosexuality is a “choice”? whose hypothesis is this? how was it proven? is heterosexuality a choice as well as a corollary? Anyone that throws this argument around as a given is starting off on a weak footing. I am very hetero, but I am not about to assume that homosexuals “chose” to like people of the same sex. That is a silly statement to make, IMO.
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Our acts are a choice, so the person who has a desire for those of the same sex choose whether to act on those desires. We, of course, also choose to act on our heterosexual desires, so in that respect…sure, they are both “choices.” A person is male or female (or in some cases intersexed, but that is another matter), not “homosexual” or “heterosexual.” We can of course choose to define people by their desires - kleptomaniac, masturbator, pedophile, murderer, adulterer, etc. But, our essence is human - male or female.

Desire for the opposite sex is the properly ordered desire according to natural law. Even an alien from another planet studying mankind as an anthropologist would come to that conclusion (not that homosexual relationships don’t exist…just that it is a relationship based on a disordered desire).
 
Namikis-

I was asking a “tongue-in-cheek” question, but I was also serious. It infuriates me when people assume homosexuality is a choice. I strongly believe it is not any more a choice than it is for a heterosexual person to choose to be heterosexual. But I want the "it’s a choice’ crowd to really think about it. - Tshawn

It’s always easy to condemn that which one does not understand and hide behind the Bible and Church teachings as a defence.

I’m not arguing about the Bible or Church teaching though so please don’t anyone debate me on that. I’m aware this is a Catholic forum and I respect the views (most of them). I just like to make people think and see things from the other perspective so they’ll be reminded to be more charitable when addressing these types of topics because things aren’t always so clear and “black and white” when it is YOUR cross (whatever cross it may be), to carry. - Tshawn
 
Ok - that is a more understandable position. The way I read it, the Church’s position is one of “you are never to abuse/use the reproductive system that was designed to support procreation for any purpose other than to create a life under marriage”. So that covers masturbation, sex between people of the same sex, sex between people of different sex outside marriage, etc. That makes sense, though it is a very tough standard to maintain. With the bar that high, I am afraid very, very few teenagers are eligible for entrance into heaven as defined here.

N
 
namikis said:
Ok - that is a more understandable position. The way I read it, the Church’s position is one of “you are never to abuse/use the reproductive system that was designed to support procreation for any purpose other than to create a life under marriage”. So that covers masturbation, sex between people of the same sex, sex between people of different sex outside marriage, etc. That makes sense, though it is a very tough standard to maintain. With the bar that high, I am afraid very, very few teenagers are eligible for entrance into heaven as defined here.

N
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All are eligible, regardless of their disordered desires - we are all sinners. The requirement is being in a state of grace at the time of death. Thankfully, Jesus gave us the Church and conferred the ability to bind/loose sin to our priests through Apostolic Succession. We all need to aim at being a saint. Repentance and receiving the Sacraments is the way to get there.

Being free of sexual sin may sound insurmountable to some, but it is not. For a married person, it means not masturbating, not using artificial birth control and not performing improper sexual acts with your spouse. For a single person it means not masturbating and not having sex at all. Difficult? Sure. Impossible? Of course not…plenty of people do it (numbers-wise…not sure about percentage :o )
 
What part of a forbidden act don’t you understand?

No one can rewrite scripture to satisfy themselves…if it was even tried, everything would be thrown out

We accept Christ on His terms and not ours
 
Dale_M said:
Ah, but God is (thankfully!) forgiving.
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When people are sorry for their sins, yes.

If people parade their sins around and expect others to follow, no. Christ was pretty clear on that.
 
TShawn said:
Namikis-

I was asking a “tongue-in-cheek” question, but I was also serious. ** It infuriates me when people assume homosexuality is a choice.** I strongly believe it is not any more a choice than it is for a heterosexual person to choose to be heterosexual. But I want the "it’s a choice’ crowd to really think about it. - Tshawn

It’s always easy to condemn that which one does not understand and hide behind the Bible and Church teachings as a defence.

I’m not arguing about the Bible or Church teaching though so please don’t anyone debate me on that. I’m aware this is a Catholic forum and I respect the views (most of them). I just like to make people think and see things from the other perspective so they’ll be reminded to be more charitable when addressing these types of topics because things aren’t always so clear and “black and white” when it is YOUR cross (whatever cross it may be), to carry. - Tshawn
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People are not born gay. There is no gay gene no matter how much gays wish there was.
People become gay either as a product of their upbringing, their environment, or by choice.
 
thistle said:
People are not born gay. There is no gay gene no matter how much gays wish there was.
People become gay either as a product of their upbringing, their environment, or by choice.
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Well, two out of three of your reasons are out of control of the person, so, really, it isn’t a choice to experience same sex attraction.

It is a choice on how to live one’s life. We are not guaranteed that all heterosexuals will find a life partner that they will live their lives with. Homosexuals are not permitted to have a life partner that involves sex. But, all single people are allowed/encouraged to live a fruitful life of service and friendship and loving (platonic) relationships with others.

The genetic argument is a distraction. It doesn’t matter how one finds oneself with their particular cross to bear. We are all fallen, and in need of salvation.
 
thistle said:
People are not born gay. There is no gay gene no matter how much gays wish there was.
People become gay either as a product of their upbringing, their environment, or by choice.
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What? Where is the proof for this? can you share your research on the matter? Are you a Nobel prize geneticist? My point is that we do not make any headway by pushing statements like this, which drive people away.

There are many areas that need serious priority attention from us (Catholics), homosexuality is in my view item #875 in the list. We need to work on items 1 through 874 and maybe then we can go deal with this men-kissing-men / women-marrying-women issue. If more American Catholics could get as furiously energetic on the issue of children dying of malnutrition and infectious disease in sub-Saharan Africa and other parts of the world as they are about prop 8, we could make some serious headway in preventing wide-scale suffering. Here are some links to consider:

neifoundation.org/About%20US.html

carenowfoundation.org/

Namikis
 
namikis said:
What? Where is the proof for this? can you share your research on the matter? Are you a Nobel prize geneticist? My point is that we do not make any headway by pushing statements like this, which drive people away.
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As PaulinVA just explained, a genetic origin would be irrelevant to Church teaching. A genetic defect would not change the sinfulness of an act.
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namikis:
There are many areas that need serious priority attention from us (Catholics), homosexuality is in my view item #875 in the list. We need to work on items 1 through 874 and maybe then we can go deal with this men-kissing-men / women-marrying-women issue. If more American Catholics could get as furiously energetic on the issue of children dying of malnutrition and infectious disease in sub-Saharan Africa and other parts of the world as they are about prop 8, we could make some serious headway in preventing wide-scale suffering. Here are some links to consider:

neifoundation.org/About%20US.html

carenowfoundation.org/

Namikis
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You say it ranks #875, yet here you are on a thread dealing with homosexuality. If it is so low on your list, how did you find time to address it in between your work on malnutrition and infectious disease in sub-Saharan Africa? 😉
 
thistle said:
People are not born gay. There is no gay gene no matter how much gays wish there was.
People become gay either as a product of their upbringing, their environment, or by choice.
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While it is true that homosexuality has not been proved to be genetic, it is also true that your authoritative statements have not been proved either. Put simply, we don’t know what causes queer sexualities.
 
RobertLGarrett said:
As PaulinVA just explained, a genetic origin would be irrelevant to Church teaching. A genetic defect would not change the sinfulness of an act.

You say it ranks #875, yet here you are on a thread dealing with homosexuality. If it is so low on your list, how did you find time to address it in between your work on malnutrition and infectious disease in sub-Saharan Africa? 😉
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Robert: Well played!!! I concur - why am I spending time here when I could be working on my day job??? I promise to unsubscribe from this thread shortly, since you no longer like my posts. 😦

I do work with both of these organizations (both run by non-Catholic Christians) and it is amazing what they accomplish with so little. Dr. Kwon is revolutionizing nutrition in Afghanistan by introducing soy farming (teaching the locals how to farm soy and consume it as soy milk and as an additive to na’an bread). He is been at this since 2003 - ad if yo have been watching the news - doing any kind of business in Afghanistan is no picnic. On top of the continuing local violenceWars have devastated the irrigation infrastructure and farming skills have diminished greatly. AF now hast the highest infant mortality rate. One of the provinces suffers from liver disease from poisoned wheat (Gulran syndrome). I am involved in figuring out an effective and practical treatment for that and executing the plan.

Carenow is similar - less talk and more walk in helping stop deaths from infectious disease in Africa. As the title implies, their focus is about doing something about it now, moving nurses and physicians to action in the regions that need them. A big need there is a malaria treatment for children - the current therapy is formulated for adults and is very painful for children to stick to, so we are working on that.

Either one of these ventures - and a plethora of similar ones out there - are much more in line, IMO, with where our energy should be. But that is only my opinion. Maybe homosexuality should be higher in the list and I am wrong - we will all know eventually.

Does that make sense?

And now Namikis will sign off and stop checking this thread for a few days and focus on his to-do list for Cure Pharmaceutical.

And should any of you happen to be venture capitalists, we are looking for investors!

More info here:

www.curepharmaceutical.com

God bless you all!

N
 
namikis said:
Robert: Well played!!! I concur - why am I spending time here when I could be working on my day job??? I promise to unsubscribe from this thread shortly, since you no longer like my posts. 😦
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I never said I don’t like your posts. I was just pointing out some hypocrisy. It is nothing personal, and it is not game-playing. It is just that if you are going to wag your finger at others, you need to consider your own actions. 🙂

Keep up the good work…we need more cures!
 
Brendan said:
If people parade their sins around and expect others to follow, no. Christ was pretty clear on that.
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Indeed, but Christ wasn’t clear that homosexual behavior is a sin.

Granted the Bible calls it a sin in a couple of places, but it says all kinds of things to be sins which we don’t regard as such today.

Obviously, though, if you regard homosexual behavior to be sinful (as the Catholic Church teaches) then you probably shouldn’t be engaging in it.
thistle said:
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People become gay either as a product of their upbringing, their environment, or by choice.
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Is that how people become heterosexual?
 
Teen4Christ said:
Many homosexuals are in loving relationships
🙂
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That kind of begs the question of the meaning of a loving relationship. A married man may “love” his mistress and she him. Or not. The relationship is still false.
 
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