SPLIT: How could Jesus be speaking literally here?

[John_The_Pentec]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[Cat_Herder]

[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 89:4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[JM3]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

Thus, the great mystery.

If it had been meant as a symbol, wouldn’t He have said so?

So, the real question for you is, do you believe Him or not?

 

[NHInsider]

Perhaps because in eternity, there isn’t now-and-later, only now?

In Revelation John saw “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Jesus’ Blood was shed on earth in time - but in the order of grace, It is always being shed, always being offered on the Heavenly Altar.

 

[Pax]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

John The Pentec in Christ,

The giving of the Lord’s body and blood to us in the Eucharist is a miracle. This miracle takes place “for us” subsequent to Jesus dying on the cross. There is no reason why Jesus could not also provide the apostles the miracle of the Eucharist prior to his death on the cross. Moreover, Jesus was transforming the Passover at the Last Supper.

The transformation of the Passover at the Last Supper is made clear by an examination of the Jewish Passover liturgy. There are four cups of wine that are consumed during the Passover meal. Scholars have examined the gospel accounts, and it is clear that Jesus and the apostles left the upper room and went out into the night singing the little Hillel psalm. They left the upper room before the consumption of the fourth cup of the passover meal. In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus asks the Father “…if it be possible, let this cup pass from me;…” This is the fourth cup and it is not consumed, and the Passover is not complete, until Jesus says on the cross “‘It is finished’; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”

This is the transformation of the Passover and since Jesus death on the cross is part of the Passover transformation it is quite reasonable for Jesus to say “this IS my blood which IS shed.” Jesus passion and death begin and end within the present tense context of the Passover.

You can read a little more about the Fourth Cup here:
webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm

I hope this helps and God bless.

 

[Zooey]

1st Peter 1:18-21

 

[Prieldedi]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

He was literal regarding the shedding of His blood, not symbolic.

Why would He, in the short seven words sentence you mentioned, by half literal and half symbolic?

 

[puzzleannie]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

he is speaking of an event happening in present time, the sacrificial action which will culminate on Good Friday has already begun in this narrative. Just as the various events of the passion, commemorated as isolated moments in such prayers as the Via Cruxis and rosary, take place over time period and even at the end crucifixion and death do not happen in an instant, all that comprises the sacrifice takes place in order, for a reason, as related in the gospels. When you were at Mass today and the priest consecrated the sacred species, over a period of a few minutes, he was in the same present time, as were we in witnessing the sacrifice and consuming the precious Body and Blood.

 

[onfaithjourney]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

Matthew 26:27-28
"Then he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which WILL BE shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 14: 24
“He (Jesus) said to them , “This is my blood of the covenant, which WILL BE shed for many.””

Luke 22:19
"Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which WILL BE given for you; do this in memory of me.”

So I don’t see what you mean…

Either you have an edited bible or I’m missing something really obvious here…

 

[4thelamb]

Thus, the great mystery.

If it had been meant as a symbol, wouldn’t He have said so?

So, the real question for you is, do you believe Him or not?

Its not a mystery, He did say so:

(John 6:53-66)

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “**Does this offend you? **62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! **63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” **For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

 

[Philthy]

How can Jesus be speaking literally when he said, “this IS my blood which IS shed,” and He had not gone to the cross yet?

at least that first communion was symbolic of a future event.

How? If what He said were true, then that would explain how he could be speaking literally. The real question is, "If you are incapable of understanding the “how” does that mean He should not have said, “This is my body…”?
Is this any greater mystery than when God simply said, “Let there be light” and there was? Out of nothing? Does our inability to understand how God created something out of nothing mean that God should not have said that that is how it happened?
I chose to emulate the apostle Peter in simply acknowledging being completely stupefied by it but remaining faithful to Him and the Church He built on Peter.

Blessings!

 

[4thelamb]

John The Pentec in Christ,

The giving of the Lord’s body and blood to us in the Eucharist is a miracle. This miracle takes place “for us” subsequent to Jesus dying on the cross. There is no reason why Jesus could not also provide the apostles the miracle of the Eucharist prior to his death on the cross. Moreover, Jesus was transforming the Passover at the Last Supper.

The transformation of the Passover at the Last Supper is made clear by an examination of the Jewish Passover liturgy. There are four cups of wine that are consumed during the Passover meal. Scholars have examined the gospel accounts, and it is clear that Jesus and the apostles left the upper room and went out into the night singing the little Hillel psalm. They left the upper room before the consumption of the fourth cup of the passover meal. In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus asks the Father “…if it be possible, let this cup pass from me;…” This is the fourth cup and it is not consumed, and the Passover is not complete, until Jesus says on the cross “‘It is finished’; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”

This is the transformation of the Passover and since Jesus death on the cross is part of the Passover transformation it is quite reasonable for Jesus to say “this IS my blood which IS shed.” Jesus passion and death begin and end within the present tense context of the Passover.

You can read a little more about the Fourth Cup here:
webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm

I hope this helps and God bless.

This is a theory not a biblical teaching, although Christ’s death and ressurection was representative of the Jewish Passover. Jesus was the Passover Lamb. But that reality has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

Why would it that even be a nessessary thing? It has nothing to do with what Christ said it was for. He said “Do this in remembrance of me”. Why is it necessary for us to eat his actually body for us to remember what he did for us? When Jesus said he is the Bread of Life he wasn’t confining that meaning to simply to a physical meal. Jesus meant His is eternal food for the soul! Not for our physical stomachs. Jesus said He gives Living Water. Those who receive Christ’s Living Water will never thirst again. That’s because Jesus is saying He can SATISFY THE SOUL! He’s not interested in our physical bodies! He cares about our eternal destination. He promises that He is the source for our eternal nourishment when He says He is the Bread of Life. When He says He gives Living Water. To miss this is to miss it all! Christ is not physical food you eat like a powerbar once a week so you can remain in a “state of grace” as long as you have His flesh in your stomach. The Lord’s Supper is symbolism for a much much larger need that’s being met when we are in Christ Jesus!! An eternal need. And Jesus wanted us to remember that! That’s why He says we are to always do it. He says we will never hunger or thrist for anything again…FOREVER! Don’t you see, its the most important event that’s ever taken place in the history of existance! It means we are forever in Him, completely forgiven, and that we get to share in His eternal inheritance as children of the Living God.

 

[JM3]

Its not a mystery, He did say so:

(John 6:53-66)

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “**Does this offend you? **62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! **63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” **For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

64Yet there are some of you who do not believe

This is between you and Jesus.

I, on the other hand, believe what Jesus said. “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
And when Jesus broke the bread and said “This IS my Body…” I believe He spoke the truth.

There is no twisting of the Scriptures that you can do that will change my trust in Jesus or His Church.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Yes.

But that reality has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

Why not? Wasn’t the Messiah supposed to provide for a new sacrifice that accomplish the following…
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

Why would it that even be a nessessary thing? It has nothing to do with what Christ said it was for.

He said “Do this in remembrance of me”. Why is it necessary for us to eat his actually body for us to remember what he did for us?

Why are you applying an English definition to a Greek word?

When Jesus said he is the Bread of Life he wasn’t confining that meaning to simply to a physical meal. Jesus meant His is eternal food for the soul! Not for our physical stomachs.

So when He said “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink,” He lied?

Jesus said He gives Living Water. Those who receive Christ’s Living Water will never thirst again. That’s because Jesus is saying He can SATISFY THE SOUL! He’s not interested in our physical bodies!

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 6:19-20[/BIBLEDRB]

He cares about our eternal destination. He promises that He is the source for our eternal nourishment when He says He is the Bread of Life. When He says He gives Living Water. To miss this is to miss it all! Christ is not physical food you eat like a powerbar once a week so you can remain in a “state of grace” as long as you have His flesh in your stomach.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:50-54[/BIBLEDRB]

The Lord’s Supper is symbolism for a much much larger need that’s being met when we are in Christ Jesus!!

Obligatory Clinton picture in 3…
2…
1…

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7475

 

[LilyM]

Matthew 26:27-28
"Then he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which WILL BE shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 14: 24
“He (Jesus) said to them , “This is my blood of the covenant, which WILL BE shed for many.””

Luke 22:19
"Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which WILL BE given for you; do this in memory of me.”

So I don’t see what you mean…

Either you have an edited bible or I’m missing something really obvious here…

That was my first thought as well - but some translations (no prizes for guessing it seems to be mainly the Protestant ones) translate ‘is’ instead of ‘will be’. Which translation are you looking at?

Can anyone familiar with the original Greek tell us?

 

[Cat_Herder]

That was my first thought as well - but some translations (no prizes for guessing it seems to be mainly the Protestant ones) translate ‘is’ instead of ‘will be’. Which translation are you looking at?

Don’t worry about it, as the protocol set forth by Paul below should be “is” with no “will be” in every translation. The “is” that is the matter of contention is in the phrases “this is My Body/this is My Blood.”

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:23-25[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Prieldedi]

This is a theory not a biblical teaching, although Christ’s death and ressurection was representative of the Jewish Passover. Jesus was the Passover Lamb. But that reality has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

Why would it that even be a nessessary thing? It has nothing to do with what Christ said it was for. He said “Do this in remembrance of me”. Why is it necessary for us to eat his actually body for us to remember what he did for us? When Jesus said he is the Bread of Life he wasn’t confining that meaning to simply to a physical meal. Jesus meant His is eternal food for the soul! Not for our physical stomachs.

“Give us this day our daily bread.” Matthew 6:11

Do you believe this prayer is concerned here with just “our physical stomachs”? Think again if you do. In both instances (John 6 and Matthew 6) Jesus is talking about the same bread, Him: “I am the bread of life.” (John 6:35)

When you read in the Bible all the passages that are related to a specific issue then you can see the whole picture. On this one we start with the very first book of the Bible:

“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.” Genesis 14:18

Look what we have: a priest of the most high God; bread and wine; “Give us this day our daily bread”; “I am the bread of life”; “I am the bread which comes from heaven.” (John 6:41) There is more:

"Jesus answered, “Truly, I say to you, you look for me, not because you have seen through the signs, but because you ate bread and were satisfied. Work then, not for perishable food, but for the lasting food which gives eternal life. The Son of Man will give it to you, for he is the one the Father has marked.” John 6:26-27

If Jesus real concern regarding bread was just the bread for the “physical stomachs” of his followers, why does He reproaches them for looking for that specific bread? His followers were sure Jesus was talking about literal bread: «And they said to him, “Give us this bread always.”» (John 6:34)

Even the Apostles weren’t completely sure what Jesus was saying. They got it that night during the Last Supper. Then they knew the bread was truly His body and it was for our spiritual needs. If that is not the case, why would Paul be so concerned about Christians “eating a symbol” unworthily?

“Therefore, IF ANYONE EATS OF THE BREAD OR DRINKS FROM THE CUP OF THE LORD UNWORTHILY, HE SINS AGAINST THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD. Let each one, then, EXAMINE HIMSELF BEFORE EATING OF THE BREAD AND DRINKING FROM THE CUP. OTHERWISE, HE EATS AND DRINKS HIS OWN CONDEMNATION IN NOT RECOGNIZING THE BODY.” (1 Cor. 11:27-29)

Condemnation for eating a “symbol” unworthily?

From Rick Salbato:

“So we see from Paul’s words and from the symbols of the Old Law that there are three ways to sin against the Body of Christ: to receive in the state of sin; to not believe it to be His real Body; and to think of it as a food.”

If you visit the catacombs, if you read the Fathers of the Church, you’ll see that the Early Church Christians were gathering there to attend Mass and to have Communion. For that reason they were also being killed by the roman authorities. Read St. Justin letter to the Emperor Antoninus Pius explaining him the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, c. 155 AD. Go to CHAPTER LXV – ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.

 

[Philthy]

This is a theory not a biblical teaching, although Christ’s death and ressurection was representative of the Jewish Passover. Jesus was the Passover Lamb. But that reality has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

Why would it that even be a nessessary thing? It has nothing to do with what Christ said it was for. He said “Do this in remembrance of me”. Why is it necessary for us to eat his actually body for us to remember what he did for us? When Jesus said he is the Bread of Life he wasn’t confining that meaning to simply to a physical meal. Jesus meant His is eternal food for the soul! Not for our physical stomachs. Jesus said He gives Living Water. Those who receive Christ’s Living Water will never thirst again. That’s because Jesus is saying He can SATISFY THE SOUL! He’s not interested in our physical bodies! He cares about our eternal destination. He promises that He is the source for our eternal nourishment when He says He is the Bread of Life. When He says He gives Living Water. To miss this is to miss it all! Christ is not physical food you eat like a powerbar once a week so you can remain in a “state of grace” as long as you have His flesh in your stomach. The Lord’s Supper is symbolism for a much much larger need that’s being met when we are in Christ Jesus!! An eternal need. And Jesus wanted us to remember that! That’s why He says we are to always do it. He says we will never hunger or thrist for anything again…FOREVER! Don’t you see, its the most important event that’s ever taken place in the history of existance! It means we are forever in Him, completely forgiven, and that we get to share in His eternal inheritance as children of the Living God.

Has it ever occured to you to read some solid Catholic material on our understanding of the Eucharist, what it is, what it is not, and so forth? If you did that with an open mind we could at least respect your difference of opinion, but as it stands you seem to be completely ignorant of our faith and that of the earliest Christians, who were “devoted…to the breaking of the bread…”

Blessings!

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “**Does this offend you? **62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! **63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” **For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

4thelamb, a question for you: Whose flesh counts for nothing?

Love is Patient