SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

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If you did not get it from the Bible, then where did you get it from. I realize that everything God said is not in the Bible, but you show me where anything He said is recorded,( that is written.) Ralph
Where did it come from?The same place the bible originally came from - Church Tradition.

The NT books were taught orally for many years and not much was originally written down. It was only after false Christian teachings started developing (e.g. Marcionism) that Catholics (or if you prefer “Christians”) started writing things down and later assembled them into a list of “inspired” books considered the real thing. Keep in mind in the early days of the church hardly anyone could read or write and oral teaching was the normative way to communicate. Parchment writings were rare and only the wealthy and the few scholarly had them - often Jewish converts, tax collectors and so on. Recollect that not that many original apostles could read or write either - they were mostly common fishermen afterall. After a few hundred years after Christ there were about 300 known “christian” appearing texts in circulation - most of them being fakes and spurious writings by false teachers who wanted to jump onto the Christian bandwagon (and get free food and housing from those the easily impressionable and duped by their teachings). So Catholics, under pope Damascus assembled an official “cannon” (list) of the books that were considered inspired and St. Jerome translated all the different Greek texts and the Septuagint (OT books) to publish the first bible in 382 AD. Notice that this is over 350 years AFTER Christ’s resurrection. The bible however was never intended to be a complete teaching of everything Jesus or the apostles ever said. We know for example that many of Paul’s works were lost to us since he mentions letters in his NT books that we never found. Further the bible itself tells us in various places to follow the apostolic TEACHING and TRADITIONS that were HANDED DOWN to us. Catholics retain additional teachings in our apostolic traditions and the teachings we received. The Bible is incomplete without the teachings behind the words.

Why do you insist on a written record of oral tradition? As a flippant example how would you “record” the odors of incense used? The traditions are our family traditions and not things that are always written in parchment. Our traditions in many ways are written into The Church itself and in her people . If you want more concrete examples I might suggest you look into the Old Apostle’s Creed or the early Church Fathers many writings that tell us that the early church practised confession and partook of the Eucharist and many other things.

James
 
I go to the one who can forgive sin, God through Christ, I do not need anyone else between. There are no priests in the new testament, only in the Anglican and Roman Catholic church. We do not need priests,as we can now go directly to the throne of grace, through the Blood of Christ to God. The priests ended in the old testament. Ralph
Please don’t be offended, but I thought that it almost sounded like you were saying something like you don’t need to go to the dentist because you can brush your teeth at home. 😉 I’ve always found Confession to be a very rewarding experience. Not to mention very humbling. Anyone can admit their sins to God - He already knows it anyway - but it takes guts to admit your sins to a priest - even though he’s not going to tell anyone. And besides, why would Jesus give the apostles the ability to forgive sins when they didn’t need to forgive anyone else’s sins? They could have just sent the people to Jesus, but they didn’t. They acted as the first priests when they used their God-given ability to forgive the sins of others. :cool:
 
I go to the one who can forgive sin, God through Christ, I do not need anyone else between. There are no priests in the new testament, only in the Anglican and Roman Catholic church.
You forgot the Orthodox Church. And the other 20 or so Catholic Rites that are in communion with the Pope. They are Catholic, but not Roman. All of these have Priests. Even going back to the first century.
We do not need priests,as we can now go directly to the throne of grace, through the Blood of Christ to God. The priests ended in the old testament. Ralph
Where is THAT in the Bible?

By the way, I notice that you didn’t answer TommyWommy’s question about the Bible.
 
I go to the one who can forgive sin, God through Christ, I do not need anyone else between. There are no priests in the new testament, only in the Anglican and Roman Catholic church. We do not need priests,as we can now go directly to the throne of grace, through the Blood of Christ to God. The priests ended in the old testament. Ralph
Ralph, You are wasting your time. You are talking to a group of people who don’t believe in sola scripture.
Blessings on your life
 
Please don’t be offended, but I thought that it almost sounded like you were saying something like you don’t need to go to the dentist because you can brush your teeth at home. 😉 I’ve always found Confession to be a very rewarding experience. Not to mention very humbling. Anyone can admit their sins to God - He already knows it anyway - but it takes guts to admit your sins to a priest - even though he’s not going to tell anyone. And besides, why would Jesus give the apostles the ability to forgive sins when they didn’t need to forgive anyone else’s sins? They could have just sent the people to Jesus, but they didn’t. They acted as the first priests when they used their God-given ability to forgive the sins of others. :cool:
Good Example!!!👍
 
You are Catholic just like all who are baptised and should return to the Church.
Once a Catholic always a Catholic. The expectations are much higher for us and we are in fact held to a higher accountability. When did you abandon your Catholic faith? Or did your
parents not follow up with their obligations to raise you as a Catholic and get you into the Catechism programs and confirmed by an apostolic bishop?

You should very seriously try to get back to The Church since it is YOUR family.
Consider this an invitation to come back - we miss you and have been expecting you.

James
The church is my family and I am surrounded by them many times a week at my current church. I love my brothers and sisters in Christ and Christ is the head of our church, we are the body of Christ.

I know you disagree, but that is ok my Christian brother, thanks for the kind words.
 
I go to the one who can forgive sin, God through Christ, I do not need anyone else between. There are no priests in the new testament, only in the Anglican and Roman Catholic church. We do not need priests,as we can now go directly to the throne of grace, through the Blood of Christ to God. The priests ended in the old testament. Ralph
Do you believe Christ IS God?
 
I myself go to confession. I do not like to. But I view going to confession as a dress rehearsal for when I stand before God in judgement. If I can not sit down with a priest and tell him of my sins, how will I be able to do this in the presence of God. As you are aware there is quite a difference between talking to someone on the phone and talking to someone in person. So in some ways when you confess your sins to God in the privacy of your room it is somewhat like talking to God over the phone. Confessing your sins to a priest gives you an insight of what it will be like when we stand before God and account for ourselves. I hope this helps. All the Best, Tom
 
**Yes, Jesus is God, as Jesus Himself often enough affirmed.

We ought not to go to confession with uncomfortable feelings, but gladly. This human (the priest) we confess to, doesn’t matter. It’s God we confess to! And God said after a true confession to us:
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7,50)

It’s a great present of God, to forgive us, and it’s a sacrament. A Sacrament is a gift of God’s deep loving of us. We really have all reason to be glad to be able to go to confession. In Luke 5,20 (same in several other verses Mark 2,5 – Mat 2,9 – Luke 7,48 etc) Jesus said to lame/blind/sick people: “Your sins are forgiven”.
Now, every time Jesus said so, those who heard is thought – well that’s easy to be said – who knows if that is so?!

Jesus saw their doubts and said: Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say to the lame, ‘Get up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

So – let’s jubilantly receive confession and go on living in joy, for we are with God if we live within God. – that is in believe and faith in God.
**
 
**Yes, Jesus is God, as Jesus Himself often enough affirmed.

We ought not to go to confession with uncomfortable feelings, but gladly. This human (the priest) we confess to, doesn’t matter. It’s God we confess to! And God said after a true confession to us:
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7,50)

It’s a great present of God, to forgive us, and it’s a sacrament. A Sacrament is a gift of God’s deep loving of us. We really have all reason to be glad to be able to go to confession. In Luke 5,20 (same in several other verses Mark 2,5 – Mat 2,9 – Luke 7,48 etc) Jesus said to lame/blind/sick people: “Your sins are forgiven”.
Now, every time Jesus said so, those who heard is thought – well that’s easy to be said – who knows if that is so?!

Jesus saw their doubts and said: Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say to the lame, ‘Get up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

So – let’s jubilantly receive confession and go on living in joy, for we are with God if we live within God. – that is in believe and faith in God.
**
:amen: Well said!! 👍
 
Penance has simultaneously two meanings to Catholics and you discern which is which based on the context of the discussion.

In the first sense “Penance” means the Sacrament of Penance that is also called the Sacrament of Repentance or The Sacrament of Reconciliation. This is the actual way a Catholic can confess their sins in private to an apostolically ordained priest who has the power to “loose and bind” sins and forgive us our sins. The presumption is the person requesting forgivness has already formed the proper interior contrition and sincere sorrow to be forgiven and is truly “repentant” for his errors.

In the second sense “Penance” means “doing a personal penance” (which takes God’s repentant grace) to develop the proper interior contrition and sorrow so we can properly repent of our sins before going to confession. This can be either self imposed as a discipline or assigned by the priest during confession. It can be any combination of deep prayer, meditation/contemplation, fasting, retorative works of charity, self-denial and alms giving. In the case of personal penance it can help us focus on the gravity of our error and to project how that offended God and added to the suffering and passion of Jesus on the Cross and how it hurt our relationship with God, ourselves and our fellow man and creation itself. It it what good Catholics do to prepare for confession. It is also the post sacramental confessional acts of grace and expressions of gratitude and love to God for forgiving us of our sins. Or it is the restorative acts a priest assigns us in confession.

When one sins against God or neighbor there is an eternal offense to God since he is eternal and so holy. Catholics believe that when one is forgiven of the sins that eternal offense is mitigated but there remains earthly (temporal) consequences for those forgiven sins that must be remitted as best we can. For example if we stole money we must return it to make restitution for justice sake. If we harmed somone we need to apologize to them if possible and do what we can to restore their condition to equal or better than it was. The problem is we often can NOT repair the damage (how does one restore someone’s reputation damaged by slander for example?). So Catholics will pray and fast to help offset the temporal debts that still might remain even after forgivness of sins. We trust that God will hear our prayers and grant the graces to those who we have harmed to offset our debts in some way known only to him. This also relates to purgatory since if we do not adequately restore our temporal debts in this life then we must suffer for them in purgatory (assuming we did not die in mortal sin and go to hell). In purgatory God refines and perfects those souls who were judged worthy of heaven but due to Justice still had not atoned for the harm we caused others or even ourselves. It is also a place one goes where God removes all tendencies or desires to repeat past forgiven sins since we always in life retain a memory and appetite for past sins - even when forgiven. In heaven not even the slightest urge to sin can be permitted since heaven knows not the least of any sin or taint of desire for it.

I hope this helps.

James
God bless you
 
God bless you
Where did you ever find this place “purgatory”, do you know that only Catholics have a “purgatory” and not even God Himself mentioned this place. There are no degrees of sin, “mortal or venial sin” are the same. Only God can forgive sin. Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible (God’s Word). You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible. The catholic church make a lot of money from “purgatory”, paying for mass cards for the dead, I know these things from “having been there” one time. Ralph
 
Where did you ever find this place “purgatory”, do you know that only Catholics have a “purgatory” and not even God Himself mentioned this place. There are no degrees of sin, “mortal or venial sin” are the same. Only God can forgive sin. Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible (God’s Word). You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible. The catholic church make a lot of money from “purgatory”, paying for mass cards for the dead, I know these things from “having been there” one time. Ralph
Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible. OK. Now you say “You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible”. Ok, so you say. Where in the bible does it state those words? If it doesn’t say that then are you not as a man trying to teach me with your words?? If your claim that we are judged by God’s word, the Bible is an interpretation of something in scipture, what? And who gave you the authority to interpret scripture for man?

Lux
 
Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible. OK. Now you say “You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible”. Ok, so you say. Where in the bible does it state those words? If it doesn’t say that then are you not as a man trying to teach me with your words?? If your claim that we are judged by God’s word, the Bible is an interpretation of something in scipture, what? And who gave you the authority to interpret scripture for man?

Lux
Take a look at John chap 12:48. By the way, we interpret scripture with scripture. Ralph
 
Where did you ever find this place “purgatory”, do you know that only Catholics have a “purgatory” and not even God Himself mentioned this place.
You’re dead wrong there sir. Read this: Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
There are no degrees of sin, “mortal or venial sin” are the same.
Here again, you are dead wrong Biblically.
1st John 5:16 -17
Only God can forgive sin.
No argument from the Catholic Church on this. Here’s one of the best explanations I have found on this. Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?
Well, the quick answer is because that’s the way God wants us to do it. In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to “confess our sins to one another.” Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God…it says confess your sins to one another.
In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to “men”…plural.
In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? “Jesus said to them, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’” How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him…so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn’t get it, verses 22-23 say this, “And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’”
Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn’t expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?
The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest…it is God’s power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.
Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible (God’s Word).
It would appear so far you are the one that is offering the teachings of men and that your beliefs contradict the Bible. I would suggest that you take your own advice.
You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible.
Really? I don’t think you got that from the Bible, and in fact I will now show you where you are contradicting the Word of God.

Matthew 7:1 - 2

Luke 6:36 -37

Revelation 20: 11-13
The catholic church make a lot of money from “purgatory”,
Really? I haven’t seen that and we know for sure that that is not a historical fact. The truth is that what little of that that did occur was set right and laid to rest at the Council of Trent and has never recurred. Still, a great many anti-Catholics dearly love to pass off that specious propaganda as fact. That works right up until someone like me produces the facts and then they look like they are either ignorant or liars.
paying for mass cards for the dead,
Wow! That Mass card costs no more than a decent greeting card at Walmart…and it’s not mandatory at all. So far as I have seen, it still a whole lot cheaper than the weird prayer cloths, teaching materials, and other stuff that I see reputable preachers offer on TV all the time.
I know these things from “having been there” one time. Ralph
I don’t think so. I think that probably you may have been Catholic at one time but got decieved away from the faith much the same way that I was, (Read my testimony at that link) and just like me, you were too ignorant of the faith to counter it when well-meaning people with Bibles came on to you with this kind of propaganda.

[sign]Welcome to CAF![/sign]
 
By the way, we interpret scripture with scripture. Ralph
Yeah? Well based on the wide diversity of interpretations between you and all the rest of the thousands of other n-C faith communities, I’d say that is not actually working out very well for you guys.

Since the fault cannot be with the Holy Spirit, what does that tell you? 🤷
 
Where did you ever find this place “purgatory”, do you know that only Catholics have a “purgatory” and not even God Himself mentioned this place. There are no degrees of sin, “mortal or venial sin” are the same. Only God can forgive sin. Get away from this teaching of man and get into the Bible (God’s Word). You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible. The catholic church make a lot of money from “purgatory”, paying for mass cards for the dead, I know these things from “having been there” one time. Ralph
First of all Ralphy - God Bless You! God is working in you and that is why you are here at CAF to learn the truth about what Catholics actually believe rather than what you may have heard from others. It’s clear here from your comments that you have some funny ideas about what Catholics believe and I’d love to help you get the right understanding and correct those bad ideas.

On Mass Cards:
First of all the Catholic Church does not make any money to speak of from saying masses for those in purgatory. Mass said on behalf of a deceased person are done essentially for free. I don’t think you understand that Catholics offer worship to God daily in mass. That requires a priest, a Church, lighting, air conditioning, about 45 minutes (for a weekday mass) to over 1 hr of time (Sunday mass), volunteer altar servers, lay volunteers to seat people and do readings etc. – not to mention all the time of people who want to attend the mass and worship God. None of these people is getting paid and the parish is paying the mortgage on the Church building. The mass cards are not much different than a greeting card that just informs the deceased family that somone has requested masses for the deceased person. In and of itself it does not nothing but serve as a keepsake or reminder of a kind deed. Typical greeting and birthday cards you would send to a friend might cost you $2.00 at the store. A mass card is usually much more artistic and nicely printed on high quality paper and is given for a token donation to offset shipping and recording expenses to enter the person into the prayer and mass list. Typical donations are a whopping $5! No one is getting rich selling a few mass cards or intentions every week. I’d wager most parishes take in less than $2,000 in an entire year in donations for masses and the expenses to conduct the masses are much higher than that. There are a few national level religious orders who make a little money though since they say masses for large numbers of people at one time - but this just offsets their costs for training their priests - which takes 7 years of high level theological college work. Trust me NO ONE is getting wealthy selling mass cards and most parishes don’t even come close to offsetting their expenses.

[Continued]

James
 
[continued from prior]
Where did you ever find this place “purgatory”…]
On No Degrees of Sin:
Do you think that stealing a ballpoint pen from work is as grave as murdering your next door neighbor?! Gracious Ralphy - get some perspective and common sense. If you want the biblical evidence here it is:
Scripture Makes a Distinction Between Grave and Venial Sin:
1 John 5:16-17*
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

**Luke 12:47-48 **
That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; 48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly.

Matt. 5:19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness.

Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved).

On Only Catholics “Have” Purgatory:
This is because only Catholics have the true apostolic teaching. But everyone should be happy there is a purgatory since this is a place where only those who are judged saved get to go to get final preparation to be with God. It is not a place where somone goes to get a “second chance” like some non-Catholics mistakenly believe. You should know that there are many scripture verses that imply purgatory.

Here are just a few examples:
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

If you have more questions please ask. But I would love to hear your comments back on what I have already used to refute your prior comments. Can you use the bible to counter anything I have said?

More here:scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

James
 
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