SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

[ralphy]

You’re dead wrong there sir. Read this: Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About PurgatoryHere again, you are dead wrong Biblically.
1st John 5:16 -17 No argument from the Catholic Church on this. Here’s one of the best explanations I have found on this. Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?It would appear so far you are the one that is offering the teachings of men and that your beliefs contradict the Bible. I would suggest that you take your own advice.Really? I don’t think you got that from the Bible, and in fact I will now show you where you are contradicting the Word of God.

Matthew 7:1 - 2

Luke 6:36 -37

Revelation 20: 11-13
Really? I haven’t seen that and we know for sure that that is not a historical fact. The truth is that what little of that that did occur was set right and laid to rest at the Council of Trent and has never recurred. Still, a great many anti-Catholics dearly love to pass off that specious propaganda as fact. That works right up until someone like me produces the facts and then they look like they are either ignorant or liars.Wow! That Mass card costs no more than a decent greeting card at Walmart…and it’s not mandatory at all. So far as I have seen, it still a whole lot cheaper than the weird prayer cloths, teaching materials, and other stuff that I see reputable preachers offer on TV all the time.
I don’t think so. I think that probably you may have been Catholic at one time but got decieved away from the faith much the same way that I was, (Read my testimony at that link) and just like me, you were too ignorant of the faith to counter it when well-meaning people with Bibles came on to you with this kind of propaganda.

[sign]Welcome to CAF![/sign]

Good day to you. First of all,I do not follow traditional, I follow the word of God. Jesus referred to the Pharisee"s about their traditions and gave them a blast. When my mother died at the age of 102, at the wake there was a big panick on because they ran out of mass cards, so the priest was summond and quickly found some,from the number of people attending the funeral, I would guess that around 5-6 hundred dollars was accumulated to say mass for the dead. This accumulation of money is a result of the catholic church teaching that people go to Purgatory and must be prayed out of there to get to heaven. Speaking of tradition, I cannot believe that anyone would believe that God would build His church on a human being (a sinner) like Peter… By the way the disciples are dead and while they were with Christ, He gave them special powers. These special powers were not passed on to anyone after that, otherwise the pope should be able to heal, right? The Bible my friend will judge you in the end. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Ralph, You are wasting your time. You are talking to a group of people who don’t believe in sola scripture.
Blessings on your life

Your judgement my friend will come from the word of God,nothing else. Ralph

 

[CentralFLJames]

Good day to you. First of all,I do not follow traditional, I follow the word of God. Jesus referred to the Pharisee"s about their traditions and gave them a blast. When my mother died at the age of 102, at the wake there was a big panick on because they ran out of mass cards, so the priest was summond and quickly found some,from the number of people attending the funeral, I would guess that around 5-6 hundred dollars was accumulated to say mass for the dead. This accumulation of money is a result of the catholic church teaching that people go to Purgatory and must be prayed out of there to get to heaven. Speaking of tradition, I cannot believe that anyone would believe that God would build His church on a human being (a sinner) like Peter… By the way the disciples are dead and while they were with Christ, He gave them special powers. These special powers were not passed on to anyone after that, otherwise the pope should be able to heal, right? The Bible my friend will judge you in the end. Ralph

Ralphy, if you do not follow traditions then you do not follow the word of God.
How do you think we even know what the word of God is without tradition? There was no
“bible” for 350 years after Christ rose from the dead. Christians all followed the traditions of the apostle’s disciples by ORAL traditions and word of mouth preachings. The Catholic Church assembled the bible 350 years later and know what to include in the bible from its own traditions of what was being preached among the true Christians - which were Catholic by the way. Before the bible was assembled there were over 300 other false books by false disciples being taught. How do you think Catholics were able to figure out which were the true word of God - because of their traditions that were handed down to them by the apostles and their disciples.

The bible tells us we MUST follow the apostle’s traditions and ORAL teachings. Jesus did not command anyone to write a bible - He commanded the apostles to TEACH.

Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.

Luke 10:16 - He who** hears you **(not “who reads your writings”), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

Acts 2:3-4 - the Holy Spirit came to the apostles in the form of “tongues” of fire so that they would “speak” (not just write) the Word.

2 Tim. 1:13 - oral communications are protected by the Spirit. They abide forever. Oral authority does not die with the apostles.

2 Tim. 4:2,6-7 - Paul, at the end of his life, charges Timothy to preach (not write) the Word. Oral teaching does not die with Paul.

Titus 1:3 - God’s word is manifested “through preaching” (not writing). This “preaching” is the tradition that comes from the apostles.

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Tim. 6:20 - guard what has been “entrusted” to you. The word “entrusted” is “paratheke” which means a “deposit.” Oral tradition is part of what the Church has always called the Deposit of Faith.

more here: scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Your judgement my friend will come from the word of God,nothing else. Ralph

Yes Ralphy - but the important thing to understand is WHAT is The Word of God. Did you know that The Word of God is a person? That’s right - Jesus IS the Living Word of God and if you do not live by every word that comes out of His mouth then you will have no eternal life in you. Do you eat the Living Word of God in The Body and Blood of Christ as Jesus commanded you Ralph?

John 6:53-58
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith. Protestants don’t like this one since their wrong sola fide belief has no concept of repentance and confessing sins and doing penance so that grace may abide fully in a person and grow in one’s heart.

So you see the Word of God insists that we be JUST LIKE JESUS. That’s a hard standard isn’t it? Sure it is. But Christ promised us we can be just like Him if we obey Him and cooperate with His grace.

Much more here: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

James

 

[Lux_Caelum]

Take a look at John chap 12:48. By the way, we interpret scripture with scripture. Ralph

Ok, I did and here it is: "He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. "

These are your words: “You will be judged by God’s word, the Bible.”

You did not quote John 12:48 but interpreted it into your own words and your own teaching (remember you said do not follow the teachings of men?"

Also, John 12:48 clearly states “my sayings” and “the word I have spoken” but I do not see anything refering to the bible being our judge do you?

Lux

 

[Lux_Caelum]

Your judgement my friend will come from the word of God,nothing else. Ralph

Also your words: "By the way, we interpret scripture with scripture. Ralph "

Please show references where the bible states “Your judgement my friend will come from the WORD of God, NOTHING ELSE” and also please reference where the bible states that it interprets itself (that is called circular reasoning).

Or again are you interpreting scripture to fit your doctrine?

Lux

 

[Lux_Caelum]

Also Ralph in case you try to interpret “He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.” by stating that SAYINGS are only written word please note the following:

John 21:25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

That is why the written and VERBAL sayings of Jesus are equally valid (again you cannot reference scripture that says only the bible is our source of information). We receive the verbal instructions that were passed down from the apostles throught the Catholic church and protected by the Holy Spirit

"So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold the teachings that you have learned, whether by word or by letter of ours." **- **2 Thess 2:15

“word or by letter of ours” is apostolic tradition.

 

[Church_Militant]

Good day to you. First of all,I do not follow traditional, I follow the word of God.

Good day to you as well.

Actually you do indeed follow Sacred Tradition because you hold the Bible in such reverence. You cannot ascertain from anywhere in the Bible itself what books are inspired and belong in it. As a result, it is from the consensus and councils of the Catholic Church especially during the 3rd and 4th centuries that discussed and discerned what was worthy of canonizing. This process was completed in 382 IIRC and was dogmatically affirmed again at The Council of Trent, but it was based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church that we have a definitive canon at all. This is historical fact.

Jesus referred to the Pharisee"s about their traditions and gave them a blast.

Only insofar as they negated the law so that does not apply here.

The New Testament shows what the apostolic attitude toward Tradition was. See these articles for specifics.
Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.
Tradition? No way!

When my mother died at the age of 102, at the wake there was a big panick on because they ran out of mass cards, so the priest was summond and quickly found some,from the number of people attending the funeral, I would guess that around 5-6 hundred dollars was accumulated to say mass for the dead.

Sounds like a lot of people loved your Mom.

This accumulation of money is a result of the catholic church teaching that people go to Purgatory and must be prayed out of there to get to heaven.

Did you even read the links I gave you? I don’t know where you are but that is nothing more than another load of a-C propaganda that’s untrue. They wish it was…but it’s not.

No one has to pray anyone out of purgatory and the church does not teach that. Because of the Communion of Saints prayers are efficacious for both the living and the deed. Like I said…you don’t appear to have known the Catholic faith well enough not to be deceived by people with Bibles in hand. The Bible teaches that.

Speaking of tradition, I cannot believe that anyone would believe that God would build His church on a human being (a sinner) like Peter.

I don’t think it much matter to God whether you or I find it credible that God would do such a thing. It’s not credible to think that God Himself would come down from Heaven and suffer and die for my sins, but we believe that he did, so our personal incredulity has nothing to do with it. It is not our place to question God as to why He did what He did, but it’s quite plain in the New Testament that Peter was the leader of the apostles and that Jesus built His church. Read thse article carefully to better understand.
Peter and the Papacy
Peter the Rock
Apostolic Succession (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 1 (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 2 (Fathers*)
Origins of Peter as Pope (Fathers*)

By the way the disciples are dead and while they were with Christ, He gave them special powers. These special powers were not passed on to anyone after that

, otherwise the pope should be able to heal, right?Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Our Lord promised that believers would never die. So then (and read the New Testament acciount of the transfiguration. Were Moses and Elijah dead then?)

Moreover I’m still waiting for you to show me how you can justify the things that I have refuted with scripture, since you consider it the final authority. I have shown from the Word of God that your remarks contradict the very source that you tell me is the final and ultimate authority and self interprets. Until you go back and offer me scripture that proves that what I have said is wrong, then all I have seen is your rhetorical statements and that falls quite literally into the teachings of men.

The Bible my friend will judge you in the end. Ralph

I’ve already shown that this is not a Biblical statement, so unless you can show that from the BIble, I will not even consider it.

If you are a Bible Christian, then prove your statemts are in there Bible by showing where these concepts are found. If you cannot or will not, you’re just another man…teaching something different.

 

[ralphy]

Good day to you as well.

Actually you do indeed follow Sacred Tradition because you hold the Bible in such reverence. You cannot ascertain from anywhere in the Bible itself what books are inspired and belong in it. As a result, it is from the consensus and councils of the Catholic Church especially during the 3rd and 4th centuries that discussed and discerned what was worthy of canonizing. This process was completed in 382 IIRC and was dogmatically affirmed again at The Council of Trent, but it was based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church that we have a definitive canon at all. This is historical fact.Only insofar as they negated the law so that does not apply here.

The New Testament shows what the apostolic attitude toward Tradition was. See these articles for specifics.
Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.
Tradition? No way!
Sounds like a lot of people loved your Mom.Did you even read the links I gave you? I don’t know where you are but that is nothing more than another load of a-C propaganda that’s untrue. They wish it was…but it’s not.

No one has to pray anyone out of purgatory and the church does not teach that. Because of the Communion of Saints prayers are efficacious for both the living and the deed. Like I said…you don’t appear to have known the Catholic faith well enough not to be deceived by people with Bibles in hand. The Bible teaches that.
I don’t think it much matter to God whether you or I find it credible that God would do such a thing. It’s not credible to think that God Himself would come down from Heaven and suffer and die for my sins, but we believe that he did, so our personal incredulity has nothing to do with it. It is not our place to question God as to why He did what He did, but it’s quite plain in the New Testament that Peter was the leader of the apostles and that Jesus built His church. Read thse article carefully to better understand.
Peter and the Papacy
Peter the Rock
Apostolic Succession (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 1 (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 2 (Fathers*)
Origins of Peter as Pope (Fathers*)
Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Our Lord promised that believers would never die. So then (and read the New Testament acciount of the transfiguration. Were Moses and Elijah dead then?)

Moreover I’m still waiting for you to show me how you can justify the things that I have refuted with scripture, since you consider it the final authority. I have shown from the Word of God that your remarks contradict the very source that you tell me is the final and ultimate authority and self interprets. Until you go back and offer me scripture that proves that what I have said is wrong, then all I have seen is your rhetorical statements and that falls quite literally into the teachings of men.I’ve already shown that this is not a Biblical statement, so unless you can show that from the BIble, I will not even consider it.

If you are a Bible Christian, then prove your statemts are in there Bible by showing where these concepts are found. If you cannot or will not, you’re just another man…teaching something different.

How does one get out of “Purgatory”, I was told that prayer gets them out! John 12:48 is a Biblical statement regarding judgement. Ephesians 2: 8-9 is also a Biblical statement regarding salvation.2Tim 3:16 is also a Biblical statement regarding scripture. I only quote scriptural versus. Ralph

 

[CentralFLJames]

How does one get out of “Purgatory”, I was told that prayer gets them out! John 12:48 is a Biblical statement regarding judgement. Ephesians 2: 8-9 is also a Biblical statement regarding salvation.2Tim 3:16 is also a Biblical statement regarding scripture. I only quote scriptural versus. Ralph

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

You have to pay every penny that the Just Judges imposes before you can get out of jail.

If no one prays for these souls then they are there for as long as God judged appropriate. If we pray for them we can help promote them sooner or get them out completely (as if paying bail so to speak). God decides it all.

We do have saints who had special personal revelations on purgatory (visions, visitations of those who were released and thankful as well as actually being taken there). Catholics are free to believe or not believe these private revelations that have been investigated and approved as “worthy of belief”. Given the high caliber and integrity of these saints I am inclined to believe them. These saints tell us that some souls are assigned to suffer there till the end of time for barely escaping hell (e.g. like when somone prayed for them on their death bed and they were repentant in the last moments of life). Others are only there a short time and need just a few people praying for them to promote to heaven.

We are also told that any soul that you pray for that is released will in gratitude pray for you non-stop in front of God’s altar all the days of your life to petition God for special graces to help us advance in our spirituality and to help you in life in times of special need. It is important to not take this too lightly since any soul in heaven is perfectly justified to God and God honors and rewards his saints with special favors and graces to dispense with his favor.

If you have any deceased relatives you will want to pray for them in case they are in purgatory since it will help them immensely. Minimally you should have some masses said since we are told these are the most effective means to help those in purgatory. The next best thing is a Catholic in a high state of grace (confessed all sins and taking Eucharist) praying the special plenary indulgences for these souls. We can gain up to one full plenary indulgence per day - but these are hard to gain since one can not have any desire or tendency even to sin.

James

 

[MarysGirls]

Wow. You guys are having a really interesting conversation. Please pardon me for this. But you guys are also waayy off topic. What does any of this have to do with Confession? I suggest that Ralph start a new thread. Hope to see you there. Pip pip cheerio!

 

[ralphy]

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

You have to pay every penny that the Just Judges imposes before you can get out of jail.

If no one prays for these souls then they are there for as long as God judged appropriate. If we pray for them we can help promote them sooner or get them out completely (as if paying bail so to speak). God decides it all.

We do have saints who had special personal revelations on purgatory (visions, visitations of those who were released and thankful as well as actually being taken there). Catholics are free to believe or not believe these private revelations that have been investigated and approved as “worthy of belief”. Given the high caliber and integrity of these saints I am inclined to believe them. These saints tell us that some souls are assigned to suffer there till the end of time for barely escaping hell (e.g. like when somone prayed for them on their death bed and they were repentant in the last moments of life). Others are only there a short time and need just a few people praying for them to promote to heaven.

We are also told that any soul that you pray for that is released will in gratitude pray for you non-stop in front of God’s altar all the days of your life to petition God for special graces to help us advance in our spirituality and to help you in life in times of special need. It is important to not take this too lightly since any soul in heaven is perfectly justified to God and God honors and rewards his saints with special favors and graces to dispense with his favor.

If you have any deceased relatives you will want to pray for them in case they are in purgatory since it will help them immensely. Minimally you should have some masses said since we are told these are the most effective means to help those in purgatory. The next best thing is a Catholic in a high state of grace (confessed all sins and taking Eucharist) praying the special plenary indulgences for these souls. We can gain up to one full plenary indulgence per day - but these are hard to gain since one can not have any desire or tendency even to sin.

James

Matt 5:26 You cannot take a verse out of context. Read the context of this verse, it is definately refering to an adversary.It recommends that you be reconciled with him lest he take you to court befor a judge who may put you in jail where you will not be released until you pay what you owe. There is no “Purgatory” my friend. Saints were first mentioned in scripture when the came to know Christ in a personal way, (living people.) Dead people cannot help you,saints are no better then we are, we are all sinners and must be saved by grace through faith, again read Eph 2: 8,9. Ralph

 

[CentralFLJames]

Matt 5:26 You cannot take a verse out of context. Read the context of this verse, it is definately refering to an adversary.It recommends that you be reconciled with him lest he take you to court befor a judge who may put you in jail where you will not be released until you pay what you owe. There is no “Purgatory” my friend. Saints were first mentioned in scripture when the came to know Christ in a personal way, (living people.) Dead people cannot help you,saints are no better then we are, we are all sinners and must be saved by grace through faith, again read Eph 2: 8,9. Ralph

Well, this is meant to be a teaching principal and the adversary is Satan who is our accuser before God. He will argue against everything we have done wrong and demand God’s justice. The idea is to do one’s penance before one dies to escape jail time (purgatory) after death.

But let’s not hijack is OP thread anymore. Why don’t you go start a new thread so we can continue some discussion. Maybe call it “Ralphy’s Questions” and we can pick up there. Leave a link here when you have it set up.

To the OP - sorry. We were trying to save a non-Catholic who has some very strange ideas about what Catholics believe…

James

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**“Ralphy” referred to “Mass Cards” and blames the Cath. Church of making “a lot of money” which is more than wrong.

“CentralFLJames” already posted a righteous and correct answer to this allegation.

Here in Germany, every member of either Cath. or Prot. Church pays "Church-Tax. Same amount both. It’s 10% of your income-tax.
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**oh yeah
MaryGirls are right
we are far off topic indeed
Yes - Ralphy, why don’t you start a new topic “My private fight against Catholics”

Sorry - no harm meant. My dear dad was Protestant too
I love Protestants, though they are wrong in very many ways, which hurt me as a kid severely
**

 

[ralphy]

Well, this is meant to be a teaching principal and the adversary is Satan who is our accuser before God. He will argue against everything we have done wrong and demand God’s justice. The idea is to do one’s penance before one dies to escape jail time (purgatory) after death.

But let’s not hijack is OP thread anymore. Why don’t you go start a new thread so we can continue some discussion. Maybe call it “Ralphy’s Questions” and we can pick up there. Leave a link here when you have it set up.

To the OP - sorry. We were trying to save a non-Catholic who has some very strange ideas about what Catholics believe…

James

I would gladly start a new thread if I knew how to do it . I am not very good at the computer. Advise me , and maybe I can set one up. Whatever the handle it would have is beside the point, Ralph’s Questions may be a good heading. Thanks, Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Yes Ralphy - but the important thing to understand is WHAT is The Word of God. Did you know that The Word of God is a person? That’s right - Jesus IS the Living Word of God and if you do not live by every word that comes out of His mouth then you will have no eternal life in you. Do you eat the Living Word of God in The Body and Blood of Christ as Jesus commanded you Ralph?

John 6:53-58
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith. Protestants don’t like this one since their wrong sola fide belief has no concept of repentance and confessing sins and doing penance so that grace may abide fully in a person and grow in one’s heart.

So you see the Word of God insists that we be JUST LIKE JESUS. That’s a hard standard isn’t it? Sure it is. But Christ promised us we can be just like Him if we obey Him and cooperate with His grace.

Much more here: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

James

In reference to your scripture quote 2 Cor 11:15, our works are not necessary for justification or salvation (if they are, then God did not do a complete job on the cross of calvary), read Eph 2:8/9. Ralph

 

[MarysGirls]

I would gladly start a new thread if I knew how to do it . I am not very good at the computer. Advise me , and maybe I can set one up. Whatever the handle it would have is beside the point, Ralph’s Questions may be a good heading. Thanks, Ralph

Wish I could help you, but I’m totally ignorant when it comes to the computer. The only reason I’ve gotten this far, is because of my sister. (Hence the name MarysGirls) :manvspc:

 

[Lux_Caelum]

Romans 2:6-8 " For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

For he (God) will render to every man according to his(you and I) WORKS.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but protestants believe works are the by-product of faith. Works are a very good sign that a person has TRUE faith (or true repentance) in Christ. A person without works may not have true faith (but that is not necessarily always true). Basically a person who has True Repentance (likely has good works as evidence of their fatih) and is SAVED. A person who has given themselves to Christ but still lives in sin is not likely saved. Please let me know if this is correct from a protestant viewpoint.

So I guess its not the works that are the problem between Catholics and Protestants, its how they come about?

But when all is said and done we both believe WORKS will be present in somone with true faith who has been saved correct? Because that is what I’m taking from Romans 2 above. So then the big question I have is this: Does it really matter how the works get there as long as they are present?

I’m not changing my Catholic view but seeing if there is a way to come to the middle on this disagreement by emphasizing the importance of the end result rather than the means.

Lux

 

[ralphy]

Wish I could help you, but I’m totally ignorant when it comes to the computer. The only reason I’ve gotten this far, is because of my sister. (Hence the name MarysGirls) :manvspc:

Thank you. Ralph