SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

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Lux
 
ralphy said:
Your judgement my friend will come from the word of God,nothing else. Ralph
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Ok but what you are saying is like saying I totally rely on the book of Mormon but reject the mormon faith.
Where do you think sacred scripture comes from?
 
Lux_Caelum said:
Romans 2:6-8 " For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

For he (God) will render to every man according to his(you and I) WORKS.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but protestants believe works are the by-product of faith. Works are a very good sign that a person has TRUE faith (or true repentance) in Christ. A person without works may not have true faith (but that is not necessarily always true). Basically a person who has True Repentance (likely has good works as evidence of their fatih) and is SAVED. A person who has given themselves to Christ but still lives in sin is not likely saved. Please let me know if this is correct from a protestant viewpoint.

So I guess its not the works that are the problem between Catholics and Protestants, its how they come about?

But when all is said and done we both believe WORKS will be present in somone with true faith who has been saved correct? Because that is what I’m taking from Romans 2 above. So then the big question I have is this: Does it really matter how the works get there as long as they are present?

I’m not changing my Catholic view but seeing if there is a way to come to the middle on this disagreement by emphasizing the importance of the end result rather than the means.

Lux
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Our works will not get us to heaven, we are saved by grace through faith. However our earthly works after salvation (the things we do for Christ) will be examined at the judgement seat of Christ (not to see if we enter heaven) but to see if thay have any value, are they the right things we done to further His kingdom or are they “stubble or hay” which will be burnt up (worth nothing). People who are saved still sin (we are still in the flesh), but one must confess that sin to God when they realize they have sinned. The blood of Jesus Christ covers all our sin, so when we come to Christ for salvation and accept Him as our personal Savior we are covered by His blood. Like the passover in the old testament, blood over the door posts and the death angel passed by. Jesus paid it all at Calvary, the work is done,our job is to turn to Him,repent of our sins, trust in His finished work on the cross and ask Him to come into our heart and save us, it’s just that straight forward and simple.He has no respect of persons, all may come and be saved. Ralph
 
Allymom said:
Ok but what you are saying is like saying I totally rely on the book of Mormon but reject the mormon faith.
Where do you think sacred scripture comes from?
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What I am saying, I totally rely on Gods word,the Holy Bible, written by man who were directed to write by the Holy Spirit as God would wanted them to write. The book of Mormon was written by man without direction of the Holy Spirit. Ralph
 
ralphy said:
In reference to your scripture quote 2 Cor 11:15, our works are not necessary for justification or salvation (if they are, then God did not do a complete job on the cross of calvary), read Eph 2:8/9. Ralph
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OK I have started a new thread exclusively for your questions and issues. Go to here and make comments or questions:

Ralphy’s Questions for Catholics
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4944998#post4944998

To the OP - sorry for the sidebar discussion - we will take it to a new thread now.

James
 
I humbly submit that one is strengthened in the sacrament because you are ministered to, and grace is imparted through the ministry of the church. However, it may be forgotten that the priest is like a magnifying glass of God’s grace. The light is greatly focused and has great impact. We may or may not feel it, but feelings are not always the best barometer.
Grace from this sacrament is a mystery. Also, we might not like going to confession, but the dynamic is irreplaceable. The Holy Spirit is imparted. I want that in every way.

I welcome the Jewish convert. Bravo.
 
WOE to you:

i don’t see how one can pay (penance) for the sins in their life.
 
Jerry_Marino said:
WOE to you:

i don’t see how one can pay (penance) for the sins in their life.
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Do you not value the blood of Christ Jerry?
That is how Catholics do penance - grace.
And God gives us grace to USE - for HIS purposes.
That includes cooperating with grace to 'be holy as your heavenly father is holy".
That includes being charitable to fellow man and lending our prayers and acts of grace to benefit them.

Remember there is a very conspicuous gospel all about WORKS in the scriptures.
It is very conspicuously called “The ACTS of the Apostles” and the apostles works bring many to God - this is GRACE AT WORK. Grace is given for Works and for Life.
The very essence of grace is God’s Love. This is the only way that we can Love both God and Neighbor - Grace!

To deny the ability to pay with the spiritual coin God gives us (which is grace) is to deny a complete book of the Bible - The ACTS of the Apostles.

No works - no life and no salvation. Only dead people do no works.

If we could not do penance we could not repent and none of us would be able to be saved.

James
 
sdtouchton said:
Going to confession is not important, but confessing our sins to God is very important. God has made it possible for us to come to Him directly for the forgiveness of our sins. This means we don’t need to go to confession to confess our sins before a minister or priest. We can go directly to the Lord in prayer.

“But if we confess our sins to him [God], he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong” (1 John 1:9).
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I tend the steer a middle ground on this these days. I think my views have shifted to the point where I think confessing our sins to God is sufficient (Christ tells us to ask the Father for forgivness in the Lord’s Prayer and the only condition for this forgiveness seems to be that we should forgive others) and yet James instructs us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16).

I think confession, while not essential, can still be important - it can really help us on our spiritual journey. It can help us tackle our sins, and can also be very liberating to have the forgiveness reinforced by a priest.

But that’s just my personal opinion.
 
Michael96 said:
I tend the steer a middle ground on this these days. I think my views have shifted to the point where I think confessing our sins to God is sufficient (Christ tells us to ask the Father for forgivness in the Lord’s Prayer and the only condition for this forgiveness seems to be that we should forgive others) and yet James instructs us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16).

I think confession, while not essential, can still be important - it can really help us on our spiritual journey. It can help us tackle our sins, and can also be very liberating to have the forgiveness reinforced by a priest.

But that’s just my personal opinion.
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Michael - you are not following Catholic teaching here at all.

Catholics may be forgiven of venial sins at any time by prayer and fasting or even going to mass and receiving the eucharist as long as you are NOT in mortal sin. We are essentially a priestly people and have the right to do this for ourselves and can pray for others too. The front matter of each Catholic Mass is all about pubic confession (the confiteor) and acknowledging our sinfulness and asking each other for forgivness in harming the Church and asking God for His forgivness and asking each other for prayers. This is all very fine and adequate for getting the small venial sins forgiven (things like being momentarily cross with somone and less than perfectly charitable but NOT for grave things like adultery or fornication or murder etc.).

The normal way to be forgiven of post-baptismal grave sins as I have mentioned is sacramental confession. A Catholic can NOT be forgiven of grave sins without a sacramental confession UNLESS one first performs a perfect act of contrition out of sincere sorrow for offending God Himself (not just fear of hell). But it is VERY hard to know if one had made a perfect act of contrition and if God has accepted our repentance. This is why sacramental confession is so very important since its a guarantee that if we sincerely regret our grave sins and intend to avoid them again even if we do not form perfect contrition and are only there out of fear of hell then we are 100% assured of being forgiven. A Catholic who does attempt to make a perfect act of contrition outside of confession MUST follow up with sacramental confession as soon as possible as a condition that the apostolic Church has put in place for loosing and binding. This can NOT be circumvented. If you die before getting a chance to go to confession then you will not go to hell but if you never go to confession and avoid it chances are you are still held to your grave sins.

Non-Catholics can attempt to make a perfect act of contrition also but as I mentioned it takes God’s grace and its very hard to attain the level of requisite repentance necessary. This is why it is very dangerous being a Protestant who commits grave post-baptismal sins.

I recommend you speak to a priest as soon as possible if you want to still call yourself Catholic and receive the sacraments worthily and not risk adding the sin of sacrilege to any past grave sins you have not confessed if any.

James
 
Absent perfect contrition for sin if one committs a mortal sin and dies in that state they will go to Hell.–that is a fact!

In that situation confession is necessary!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Absent perfect contrition for sin if one committs a mortal sin and dies in that state they will go to Hell.–that is a fact!

In that situation confession is necessary!
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That is not my understanding. If one tries to make a perfect act of contrition with the intent to go to confession as soon as possible but then dies they will not go to hell. If that person later chooses to forgoe the sacramental confession then that is another story.

As a note to your post, I would be careful about making a statment such as “they will go to Hell.–that is a fact!”. 1. You are not God so you shall not judge, only God know the heart of man. 3. You are not in a position to determine if someone has committed a mortal sin (grave yes but mortal no) 2. God has unlimited mercy and may dispense it as he sees fit. 3. God does not have to abide by Catholic doctrine if he so chooses, he is God. 4. I would worry about yourself before claiming one of your brother’s WILL go to hell.

That being said I would not take my chances. As a practicing Catholic I am held to a different standard than someone ignorant to the faith.

Lux
 
sdtouchton said:
“But if we confess our sins to him [God], he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong” (1 John 1:9).
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You pulled a Luther. You added words to Scripture to try and make it fit what you want it to say. The words “to him” are not found in the passage. Since they are not there in the first place, they can’t be referring to confessing to God.

Gary
 
ralphy said:
Our works will not get us to heaven, we are saved by grace through faith. However our earthly works after salvation (the things we do for Christ) will be examined at the judgement seat of Christ (not to see if we enter heaven) but to see if thay have any value, are they the right things we done to further His kingdom or are they “stubble or hay” which will be burnt up (worth nothing). People who are saved still sin (we are still in the flesh), but one must confess that sin to God when they realize they have sinned. The blood of Jesus Christ covers all our sin, so when we come to Christ for salvation and accept Him as our personal Savior we are covered by His blood. Like the passover in the old testament, blood over the door posts and the death angel passed by. Jesus paid it all at Calvary, the work is done,our job is to turn to Him,repent of our sins, trust in His finished work on the cross and ask Him to come into our heart and save us, it’s just that straight forward and simple.He has no respect of persons, all may come and be saved. Ralph
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Hi Ralph. You are correct that none of our works help us to enter into eternal life. That is not the whole biblical story, however. We have a life to live after we have been adopted into God’s family. It is a life that God has prepared in advance for us(Eph 2:10) and it is God who enables us to withstand the temptations that remain a part of being a child of God (1 Cor 10:13). Our ultimate goal is to remain a child of God until we die and claim our inheritance of eternal life - the kingdom of God. There is a difference between inheriting the kingdom of God and “being saved”. All the authors of the NT are pretty clear on this. If you dont forgive others their sins, neither will God forgive you yours.
 
What I meant to say was if one commits a mortal sin as judged by God and once one does that and does not either have perfect contrition of that sin or make an act of contrition or go to sacramental confession and then dies then that person will go to Hell.

If one makes an act of contrition and dies before getting to sacramental confession then one would not go to Hell.

The good thief on the cross did not go to Hell for example.

He either was perfectly contrite or Jesus forgave him and granted him absolution for his sins.

Can God act outside the sacraments? Yes. It is possible that someone could commit a mortal sin-not be perfectly contrite and God could still forgive them.

We do not know this though–only God who is perfect judge knows this.

The practical reality is that outside of extreme circumstances when one is forgiven immediately before death–sacramental confession or perfect contrition or an act of contrition is necessary to restore one to a state of grace if one is in a state of mortal sin.

If an infant who is in a state of original sin is baptized and died before the age of reason or before they would ever commit a mortal sin then they would go to heaven.

What of infants or children before the age of reason and before ever committing a mortal sin who are in a state of original sin and are not baptized? We do not know. The Catholic Church teaches that we can hope for their salvation. The Catholic church also teaches that because of original sin it is imperative that an infant be baptized soon after being born.

Say one of any age is baptized and immediately after baptism dies of a heart attack.

That person would go to heaven because they would have died in a state of grace.

If one is martyred for their faith they immediately go to Heaven because they are possesed of perfect love and love casts out a multitude of sins.

Say if one is a catechumen and desires to join the Catholic Church and dies before they are able to have first confession–the eucharist and Confirmation?

They will also be saved.

The invincibly ignorant will be saved.

Venial sin will not send you to hell–dying in a state of mortal sin after committing mortal sin will send you there and only God can judge whether one has committed a mortal sin and is in that state.

Ultimately Jesus saves.
 
CentralFLJames said:
Michael - you are not following Catholic teaching here at all…
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Thankyou for your thoughtful response James.

I should have perhaps made it clearer - I fully support use of the sacrament of reconcilliation.

What I have come to doubt is a formulaic response to the sacraments ("do this and you will be saved; don’t do it and you won’t"). Rather I have come to see the sacraments as helping us on our journey of walking ever closer with Christ, becoming the Imitation of Christ. Some of our protestant friends have much more limited access to the sacraments and yet still display the light of Christ in remarkable ways (Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Corrie ten Boom are two examples that immediately spring to mind). In my mind I cannot reconcile a formulaic/legalistic view of the sacraments with a God (who so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life) who would not save such people simply because they did not use the sacrament of reconcilliation.

We are fortunate that we have an abundance of grace available to us (the sacraments, prayer, bible reading, assistance from other mature Christians, being a servant, etc., etc.). In my personal opinion there is a danger that we feel we need to “tick off” certain things, but I don’t think Christ meant us to use them in such a way. The sacramants rather are there as gifts to help us on our journies - rather than being legalistic devices.

But that’s just my opinion, which anyone is of course free to ignore or disagree with. I do appreciate people’s own thoughts though - especially when presented as their own reflections in their own words (which thankfully almost all do here).
 
CentralFLJames said:
Do you not value the blood of Christ Jerry?
That is how Catholics do penance - grace.
And God gives us grace to USE - for HIS purposes.
That includes cooperating with grace to 'be holy as your heavenly father is holy".
That includes being charitable to fellow man and lending our prayers and acts of grace to benefit them.

Remember there is a very conspicuous gospel all about WORKS in the scriptures.
It is very conspicuously called “The ACTS of the Apostles” and the apostles works bring many to God - this is GRACE AT WORK. Grace is given for Works and for Life.
The very essence of grace is God’s Love. This is the only way that we can Love both God and Neighbor - Grace!

To deny the ability to pay with the spiritual coin God gives us (which is grace) is to deny a complete book of the Bible - The ACTS of the Apostles.

No works - no life and no salvation. Only dead people do no works.

If we could not do penance we could not repent and none of us would be able to be saved.

James
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James my friend the question you pose for me, “do you not value the blood of Christ?”

i don’t see how you would come to that conclusion from my last post but i’ll answer your question with a resounding yes!

For it is by His precious blood our sins are washed away, my friend.
 
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