SPLIT: Latinized Eastern Mass Practices?

[ConstantineTG]

There is at my Byzantine parish.

Sorry I know this is kind of derailing the thread, but how?

Chalice and paten on one hand, spoon on the other.

 

[ciero]

Sorry I know this is kind of derailing the thread, but how?

Chalice and paten on one hand, spoon on the other.

A paten used for distributing communion in a Byzantine parish…sounds like more Latinization to me!

 

[ConstantineTG]

A paten used for distributing communion in a Byzantine parish…sounds like more Latinization to me!

We use it in our parish. I remember watching a video from St. Elias where there are two servers holding a big cloth. We don’t have the same amount of altar servers, in fact we usually only have one. Where is a small cloth that the priest holds that we hold under our chin in addition to the paten. I don’t know why a paten is a latinization, the intention is to prevent any accidental spillage of the Precious Blood so any valid way to do so must be done.

 

[ciero]

We use it in our parish. I remember watching a video from St. Elias where there are two servers holding a big cloth. We don’t have the same amount of altar servers, in fact we usually only have one. Where is a small cloth that the priest holds that we hold under our chin in addition to the paten. I don’t know why a paten is a latinization, the intention is to prevent any accidental spillage of the Precious Blood so any valid way to do so must be done.

The Ukranians added the use of a paten during the distrabutuion of the Eucharist in imitation of the Latins. Why would a Ukranian church even have a paten?

Most Byzantine churches both catholic and orthodox use a large red cloth. This is either held like you saw at St Elias or a corner of it is held by the priest and the communicant holds the rest under his chin while receiving. Works just fine, and no need for the Latinization.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Ukranians added the use of a paten during the distrabutuion of the Eucharist in imitation of the Latins. Why would a Ukranian church even have a paten?

Maybe they bought them as a set with the chalice?

 

[ciero]

Maybe they bought them as a set with the chalice?

And why would a Byzantine chalice come with a Latin paten.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And why would a Byzantine chalice come with a Latin paten.

Dude, if you have an issue with it, you know which Eparchy I belong to. They have a website with the email of the Bishop and all the priests.

 

[ciero]

Dude, if you have an issue with it, you know which Eparchy I belong to. They have a website with the email of the Bishop and all the priests.

Constantine…all I meant by this was…what is being done is a Latinization…you are the one trying to justify it. And you who have been “Byzantine” all of 10 min.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine…all I meant by this was…what is being done is a Latinization…you are the one trying to justify it. And you who have been “Byzantine” all of 10 min.

I don’t see what the big deal is with using a paten. Its due diligence to make sure the Sacred Species doesn’t fall on the ground. I think this is a classic case of over scrupulosity in rejecting all things “Latin” when there is nothing wrong with adapting something that makes sense. You didn’t even make an objective case for rejecting the paten except that its “Latin”.

And sure, rail on my being new to the Eastern Rite. Mind you that among Catholics, converts from outside the Church do better than cradle Catholics most of the time because they are more inquisitive and more interested with the faith. I’m not a convert but being new to the East I have more desire to learn than the average. Don’t underestimate what I know.

 

[Remington]

Sorry I know this is kind of derailing the thread, but how?

Chalice and paten on one hand, spoon on the other.

No.

Priest places spoon in chalice and then momentarily covers chalice with the veil he uses to grasp chalice. Then he places his free hand (that was formerly holding the spoon) under the base of the chalice and uses both hands when maneuvering the chalice into the sign of the cross.

I have seen a number of Byzantine Catholic priests do this.

 

[Remington]

The Ukranians added the use of a paten during the distrabutuion of the Eucharist in imitation of the Latins. Why would a Ukranian church even have a paten?

Maybe they were holding the diskos?

 

[Remington]

I don’t see what the big deal is with using a paten. Its due diligence to make sure the Sacred Species doesn’t fall on the ground. I think this is a classic case of over scrupulosity in rejecting all things “Latin” when there is nothing wrong with adapting something that makes sense. You didn’t even make an objective case for rejecting the paten except that its “Latin”.

And sure, rail on my being new to the Eastern Rite. Mind you that among Catholics, converts from outside the Church do better than cradle Catholics most of the time because they are more inquisitive and more interested with the faith. I’m not a convert but being new to the East I have more desire to learn than the average. Don’t underestimate what I know.

Naw, there is no reason to use a paten. The correct communion clothes should be used. Yes I agree no one should get all bent out of shape over “latinizations” but at the same time just use the cloth.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Naw, there is no reason to use a paten. The correct communion clothes should be used. Yes I agree no one should get all bent out of shape over “latinizations” but at the same time just use the cloth.

Our parish doesn’t have the servers to hold the cloth.

Besides, as I mentioned, I don’t know how a paten really takes away from the Byzantine tradition. The only complaint here is the origin of the paten is Roman. But its use doesn’t really change how Communion is given in the context of the Byzantine Rite. Our reason for using it is because there are no servers to hold the cloth.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No.

Priest places spoon in chalice and then momentarily covers chalice with the veil he uses to grasp chalice. Then he places his free hand (that was formerly holding the spoon) under the base of the chalice and uses both hands when maneuvering the chalice into the sign of the cross.

I have seen a number of Byzantine Catholic priests do this.

Now if there is one thing to rant about on this thread and also stay somewhat on topic, this is it.

 

[ciero]

Our parish doesn’t have the servers to hold the cloth.

Besides, as I mentioned, I don’t know how a paten really takes away from the Byzantine tradition. The only complaint here is the origin of the paten is Roman. But its use doesn’t really change how Communion is given in the context of the Byzantine Rite. Our reason for using it is because there are no servers to hold the cloth.

You do not need servers to hold the cloth. The priest holds 1 corner of the cloth along with the chalice…people hold the cloth under their chin while receiving…then hand the cloth to the next person in line…very simple.

The paten at communion is seen by most traditional Easterners as another latinization, it has no place in a Byzantine church. I suppose your priest uses a Latin purificator( small white cloth) along with the paten.

 

[Remington]

Our parish doesn’t have the servers to hold the cloth.

Besides, as I mentioned, I don’t know how a paten really takes away from the Byzantine tradition. The only complaint here is the origin of the paten is Roman. But its use doesn’t really change how Communion is given in the context of the Byzantine Rite. Our reason for using it is because there are no servers to hold the cloth.

There is a tradition within your rite/church. I really don’t know how it’s documented (if it is at all) but you should follow it. Maybe the paten/diskos IS your tradition, there are many Byzantine recensions. Some scream “latinization” just as loudly as some scream “modernism” and there really is no need for that. Just do what you bishop directs.

For what it’s worth, those sacred linens do a MUCH better job in a purely functional sense than patens do, particularly those patens on a stick.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There is a tradition within your rite/church. I really don’t know how it’s documented (if it is at all) but you should follow it. Maybe the paten/diskos IS your tradition, there are many Byzantine recensions. Some scream “latinization” just as loudly as some scream “modernism” and there really is no need for that. Just do what you bishop directs.

For what it’s worth, those sacred linens do a MUCH better job in a purely functional sense than patens do, particularly those patens on a stick.

No, the UGCC in my area is Latinized. We’re slowly going back to the proper traditions. But given the long list of Latinizations, I hardly think a paten is something to be upset about. I really don’t see how it distorts any Byzantine tradition, given our situation (lack of servers, etc.)

I think what would be a bigger concern is the blessing during Communion in the Eastern Rite. I mean, it shouldn’t be happening in a Roman Rite. But given how it becomes more complicated to do in the Byzantine Rite, given a priest literally has his hands full, I don’t know why it even started there in the first place.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[malphono]

The paten at communion is seen by most traditional Easterners as another latinization, it has no place in a Byzantine church. I suppose your priest uses a Latin purificator( small white cloth) along with the paten.

No argument from me that use of a paten in a Byzantine church is a latinization. At the same time, it seems to me that it amounts to but a small annoyance more than anything else.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

lack of servers

In my home parish we had a time when all we had in the parish were older teens and very young children. The teens were the servers but then they all left for college, so we had no servers.

We started to have adult males serve until the younger children got old enough.

So why not start this tradition in your parish? Speak with your priest and offer to serve yourself.

I served in this case and it was a wonderful experience.