SPLIT: Lutheran and Catholic baptism are the same?

[Lutheranteach]

To get permission for a mixed-marriage the Catholic must convince the priest that the marriage poses no danger that he/she will stray from the faith and must promise to do all in his/her power to have any children baptized and raised Catholic. The non-Catholic party is informed of the promise and what it entails but no promise is required of him/her because the Church recognizes that he/she may also, in good conscience, wish to raise the children in his/her Faith.

Put 10 priests in a room and ask them what the above entails and you will get 10 different answers. Baptism should be a non-factor. One is not baptized Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. they are baptized “into the faith” and that baptism is valid pretty much across the board.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I don’t have children, so I probably shouldn’t be attempting to answer. However I am a former Presbyterian. And I grew up in a family of one lapsed Catholic / Atheist (father), Anglican / Believer at core IMother), non-practising Presbyterian / Atheist (myself), and non-Baptised Believer at core (sister). If my life hadn’t taken some very negative turns, I would probably have never considered the church. It didn’t have much influence in my early life.

The trouble is not the baptism itself, which is recognised as valid by the Catholic Church. The problem will be the continuing education of your child in the Presbyterian Church. Despite the toning down of differences since Vatican II, there is still a strong under current of anti-Catholicism in the Presbyterian (and most Protestant) churches. The silly part is that if most Protestants actually sat through a few masses, they’d start to wonder what all the fuss was about.

It’s your call.

Protestants, especially Lutherans, would feel the same way about Catholics coming and sitting through our services.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Protestants, especially Lutherans, would feel the same way about Catholics coming and sitting through our services.

Been there done that…NOT Lutheran…but other demoninations…and there is a world of difference…starting with the Eucharist…which in my old denomination was only done once a month… I think you would have to agree, there are some Protestant denominations that are very far from Lutheran. And I saw firsthand the biasis against the Catholic church.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Been there done that…NOT Lutheran…but other demoninations…and there is a world of difference…starting with the Eucharist…which in my old denomination was only done once a month… I think you would have to agree, there are some Protestant denominations that are very far from Lutheran. And I saw firsthand the biasis against the Catholic church.

I’ve never taken a Catholic friend to a Lutheran service and not heard a comment about how similar they services were and how welcome they felt. As for bias I see very little in my area…but that is probably very different from place to place.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I’ve never taken a Catholic friend to a Lutheran service and not heard a comment about how similar they services were and how welcome they felt. As for bias I see very little in my area…but that is probably very different from place to place.

Never actually been to a Lutheran service…but when we were considering getting away from where we currently were to something more reverent…it was 2 choices…Lutheran or Catholic. But the further you get away from Lutheran…you will find a world of difference…especially in different specific churches…we were in a church affliated with the Baptists. After being in Assembly of God churches.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

I’ve never taken a Catholic friend to a Lutheran service and not heard a comment about how similar they services were and how welcome they felt. As for bias I see very little in my area…but that is probably very different from place to place.

Regarding a Lutheran service: They are so similar becauase the Lutherans - for the most part - retained the order of worship, etc. My Lutheran best friend went to Easter Mass with me an said, “This is just like a Lutheran service.”

Well . . . maybe . . . except the most important part of the Mass is the Eucharist, everything else is window dressing . . . . and you don’t have that.

So it might look the same - but it’s an inadequate reproduction.

Of course, on those rare occasions that I went to Church as a lad, it was a Baptist Church. And that wasn’t anything like a Catholic Mass or a Lutheran Service. Much more like the Steve Martin movie “Leap of Faith.”

Pax,
OA

 

[Lutheranteach]

Lutherans would disagree with that assessment, as you would expect, as we have very similar views on the real presence.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[manualman]

Lutherans would disagree with that assessment, as you would expect, as we have very similar views on the real presence.

But not perhaps on the Sacrament of Holy Orders as a prerequisite for its celebration, yes?

And I had a well meaning and quite sincere Evangelical guy argue with me for at least an hour that we could celebrate communion in our dorm room with Doritos and Pepsi if we liked and that it would not reduce the meaning one iota… One size definately does not fit all in the protestant world…

I will agree that the Liturgy is impressively similar in both places. I also will disagree that the rest outside the consecration is rather more than just “window dressing.” More like the consecration is the climax of the symphony, which doesn’t so much denigrate the prelude and all the rest.

As for the original topic, baptism does not require Holy Orders to confect. It is a disciplinary requirement, but not a doctrinal one. So Lutheran baptism is valid. But baptism is not a magic ceremony, it is supposed to be an outward manifestation of an inner reality. If that inner reality is that the couple has no intention of catechising the child in the catholic faith, the mere baptism itself has little effect in the long run.

And it is rather hard to keep track of the different protestant beliefs out there. Some baptismal formulas make them invalid altogether (Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier…)

 

[Janet1983]

I’ve never taken a Catholic friend to a Lutheran service and not heard a comment about how similar they services were and how welcome they felt. As for bias I see very little in my area…but that is probably very different from place to place.

When I was still Catholic (and in Germany) I had a good friend who happened to be Lutheran and she coincidently sung in the Catholic choir with me.
We actually made it a habit to take the bus into the city (as Lutheran churches were very rare in my area), attended the Lutheran service and then took the bus back and attended Mass.
I only skipped the Lutheran services that had baptisms or the Lord’s supper as it wouldn’t have worked with the timing.
I didn’t think there was too much of a difference, though when we started that I was unsure when to stand or sit, but their hymnal actually had something in the back that had the answers of the congregation and whether to sit or stand in it.
The only difference that I personally saw was that I had the attention span of a German Catholic during the sermon and couldn’t remember what it started out as about 10 minutes into it. I tried to listen, but I couldn’t keep my attention up.
Well the sermon was definitely very long.
We also sang a verse of a song that I recognized from my Catholic hymnal (and we sung it every time).
We quit doing all of that because my friend decided that sleeping in on Sunday was a nicer hobby than going to church with me so I decided to sleep in as well and only go to Mass (well I could walk there).

 

[bluelake]

Protestants, especially Lutherans, would feel the same way about Catholics coming and sitting through our services.

Which branch of Lutheranism are you referring to?
LCMS is your logo, however the ELCA branch is out of step with the Lutheran doctrine in my opinion. Some (ELCA) ordain gays and women.

bluelake

 

[JonNC]

=manualman;7137899]But not perhaps on the Sacrament of Holy Orders as a prerequisite for its celebration, yes?

Lutherans will say that, yes, we have ordination, though we don’t term it a sacrament. The difference would be that while the confessions are clear regarding the importance and desirablility of Apostolic Succession, we don’t view it as vital. And we would cite times in the past when Catholics, too, practiced presbyter ordination.

And I had a well meaning and quite sincere Evangelical guy argue with me for at least an hour that we could celebrate communion in our dorm room with Doritos and Pepsi if we liked and that it would not reduce the meaning one iota… One size definately does not fit all in the protestant world…

I will agree that the Liturgy is impressively similar in both places. I also will disagree that the rest outside the consecration is rather more than just “window dressing.” More like the consecration is the climax of the symphony, which doesn’t so much denigrate the prelude and all the rest.

And Lutherans should agree with this. LCMS former President A.L. Barry once said that the Lord’s Supper is the center of Lutheran worship.

As for the original topic, baptism does not require Holy Orders to confect. It is a disciplinary requirement, but not a doctrinal one. So Lutheran baptism is valid. But baptism is not a magic ceremony, it is supposed to be an outward manifestation of an inner reality. If that inner reality is that the couple has no intention of catechising the child in the catholic faith, the mere baptism itself has little effect in the long run.

I would disagree with the second part to the extent that we are marked by the cross of Christ in Baptism, so it has a significant effect. That, of course, is not to say that catechesis is not important.

And it is rather hard to keep track of the different protestant beliefs out there. Some baptismal formulas make them invalid altogether (Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier…)

Or just in the name of Jesus Christ, or rebaptism.

Jon

 

[Reuben_J]

As for the original topic, baptism does not require Holy Orders to confect. It is a disciplinary requirement, but not a doctrinal one. So Lutheran baptism is valid. But baptism is not a magic ceremony, it is supposed to be an outward manifestation of an inner reality. If that inner reality is that the couple has no intention of catechising the child in the catholic faith, the mere baptism itself has little effect in the long run.

This answer the thread nicely.

Lutheranteach:

Put 10 priests in a room and ask them what the above entails and you will get 10 different answers. Baptism should be a non-factor. One is not baptized Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. they are baptized “into the faith” and that baptism is valid pretty much across the board.

Baptism should lead to practicing the Catholic faith. Therefore it is a factor.

 

[1ke]

In response to the question in the “split” title, “Lutheran and Catholic baptism the same?”:

Lutheran and Catholic baptism both incorporate a person into the Church, the Body of Christ. The Lutheran baptism, being Trinitarian, is accepted by the Catholic Church as valid.

HOWEVER, Lutheran baptism does not **fully **incorporate a person into the Catholic Church. A person baptized Lutheran does **NOT **have access to the Catholic sacraments. This person also is not bound by Catholic Canon Law. This person is in imperfect communion with the Chucrh.

In order to become a Catholic, a person baptized in the Lutheran Church (or Presbyterian as the original post from which this one split was referring to) would require:

(a) if below the age of reason, it requires the parents to explicitly state their intention to bring the child into the Catholic Church through a Rite in the Church and then follow up by raising them in the Church and completing their sacraments.

(b) if above the age of reason, it requires that the baptized individual make a statement of faith themselves and be received into the Church and receive the remaining sacraments of initiation.

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by Phemie
To get permission for a mixed-marriage the Catholic must convince the priest that the marriage poses no danger that he/she will stray from the faith and must promise to do all in his/her power to have any children baptized and raised Catholic. The non-Catholic party is informed of the promise and what it entails but no promise is required of him/her because the Church recognizes that he/she may also, in good conscience, wish to raise the children in his/her Faith.

Put 10 priests in a room and ask them what the above entails and you will get 10 different answers. Baptism should be a non-factor. One is not baptized Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. they are baptized “into the faith” and that baptism is valid pretty much across the board.

I think it is the “raised Catholic” part that is at the crux of the statement. The CC accepts all valid baptisms, certainly Lutheran baptisms, and therefore would not insist on a Catholic baptism, but rather a valid baptism. They would insist on a promise to raise your children in the Catholic faith.

 

[bluelake]

Protestants, especially Lutherans, would feel the same way about Catholics coming and sitting through our services.

Which Lutheran Church are you referring to?
ELCA is no longer Christian. they ordain gays and women.

bluelake

 

[JonNC]

Which Lutheran Church are you referring to?
ELCA is no longer Christian. they ordain gays and women.

bluelake

I would dispute the idea that Lutherans in the ELCA are not Christian, or even that the ELCA is not Christian. There is a strong difference between heterodox, which the ELCA has become in some of these issues, and apostate.

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

I would dispute the idea that Lutherans in the ELCA are not Christian, or even that the ELCA is not Christian. There is a strong difference between heterodox, which the ELCA has become in some of these issues, and apostate.

Jon

I agree.

The “you’re or they’re not Christian because of X” is an accusation that is thrown around without too much consideration. There are practicing gays and lesbians who are Christian. We have no right to deem who is and who is not a Christian; that is beyond our pay grade.

It would be correct, however, to say that some ELCA churches that plan on or are ordaining gay clergy are not paying attention to Scripture.

 

[JonNC]

I agree.

The “you’re or they’re not Christian because of X” is an accusation that is thrown around without too much consideration. There are practicing gays and lesbians who are Christian. We have no right to deem who is and who is not a Christian; that is beyond our pay grade.

It would be correct, however, to say that some ELCA churches that plan on or are ordaining gay clergy are not paying attention to Scripture.

Exactly! And that’s why the term heterodox applies.

Jon

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Which branch of Lutheranism are you referring to?
LCMS is your logo, however the ELCA branch is out of step with the Lutheran doctrine in my opinion. Some (ELCA) ordain gays and women.

bluelake

Actually, bluelake, the symbol/logo that Lutheranteach uses is the Luther Rose. It is a symbol for Lutheranism in general and was developed for Martin Luther in 1530 and represent a summary of Luther’s basic theology. The LCMS Symbol is a triple cross one on top of the other. I have a feeling the LCMS also ordain gays too, they (the LCMS) just don’t know about it.