SPLIT: Meaning of divorce in Matthew's Gospel

[Nimeniton]

.

…you have been made into a eunuc (a play on Biblical text) and you find it liberating… could it be because you are now free to strive for greater things?

Maran atha!

Angel

Hmm , well one can always strive for greater things. It is just one area that I will not harm people through but of course I can still harm them through other needs i.e social status, identity, employment etc. Interestingly I was given the option of chemical hormone treatment which is reversible when stopped. Most men take this option but I was not interested. I do not feel any less a man for lacking a libido. Whilst I was never a womaniser (more to do with lack of confidence rather than any virtue!) there are many detrimental aspects to the sexual urge other than the suffering unfaithfulness causes, such as sexual jealousy and the general weakness in character that comes from it. Some of us men will jump through hoops to get some sex even over looking bad behaviour from the spouse so as not to rock the boat. And of course there is an addictive element to it.

Anyway, thanks for the reminder to strive for greater things. Especially as life is so short.

 

[Nimeniton]

…are you implying that Catholics are as immoral as atheists?

Maran atha!

Angel

As immoral and/or as moral. I do not notice much difference between the two groups. In the end it seems to come down to individuals and how their families brought them up. With regard to Catholics, they talk about morality a lot but they do not seem to stand out from any other group in their practice of it. The groups of people that I did find admirable in the Catholic Church by their way of life, such as those who lived in enclosed orders seem to be on the decline.

 

[Nimeniton]

…for most of us, we do not need to be faced with a death/life experience in order to reclaim our control; many of us just do not care enough to even fight the urge/s…

Angel

It would seem that for many drug addicts even being faced with their own mortality is not enough. Of course, if one keeps failing then many will give up. personally the language of fighting is counter productive, one needs to sublimate and not suppress. The energy is real. It has to go somewhere.

 

[Nimeniton]

I hear a similar argument against Priest Celibacy… it seems that the Church is so wrong… forcing those poor Priests and Nuns to live a chaste and celibate life… but tit was made known to them prior to taking their vows that they had to live a chaste and celibate life in a Sacramental Union with Christ… the Sacrament of Marriage is no greater or lesser than that of the Priesthood: they are both a Sacred Union with and in Christ Jesus… but if the person entering into the Sacramental Life is not mature enough he/she ends up emulating the world and embracing worldly values and standards…

Angel

In my day to leave even the junior seminary was a shameful thing, certainly amongst the Irish community. So, it took a lot of courage to give up the vocation. Of course they know that they are taking on celibacy and are told that God will give them the grace. But they find themselves in the priesthood and still struggling. The lack of evidence in any higher morality amongst Catholics convinces me that there is no such thing as God’s grace. If the Catholic church had something unique then it should make a real difference in how Catholics live their lives.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

That still allows for polygamy for which there are many examples in the Old Testament. lamech, David, Solomon, Abraham etc. In fact not only is it not condemned but God even seems to encourage it.

‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah.** And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more**…’
2 Samuel 12:8

Given the situation in the Old testament one wonders where the idea of celibacy comes from. My own theory is that the idea originated from the east, possibly Buddhism. Buddhism certainly got as far as Afganistan. Anyway, it is all very interesting.

Gee, that passage you quoted – what was God angry with David for anyhow?

2Samu 11:26 And the wife of Urias heard that Urias her husband was dead, and she mourned for him.
2Samu 11:27 And the mourning being over, David sent and brought her into his house, and she became his wife, and she bore him a son: ** and this thing which David had done, was displeasing to the Lord. **

( The child dies for what David did, too. )

But let’s take your quote seriously for the absurdity it makes; Was David to have sexual relations with every woman in Judah and Israel, for God gave him those also… ( … ALL ISRAEL AND JUDAH … )



If that’s the case, why is he upset with David for taking a woman found in Judah???!

God never says he approves of David having sexual relations with Saul’s women; (not necessarily sexual wives) At the time of David, Kings kept women to show their wealth and strength – Solomon, for example, couldn’t possibly service 1000 women on a regular basis. I mean, even at six a night… he had other things to do, too…

There is a big difference between having a trophy woman for show and beauty, than for sex.

These women were potential Queens; and so David having control of them meant he couldn’t be undermined as King. In proof of this, realize that later David’s son, Absalom, would publicly sleep with all these women that his father left behind as a public sign that he was stealing his father’s kingdom. Absalom was killed, not blessed, for what he tried to do.

If you really are interested; Read the book of Esther – She is never bedded by the king! He just has her for show in his court. I suppose, these women were good to have around to distract diplomats from other countries during negotiations; and to host parties for them. But that doesn’t mean he really felt like he needed a golf course of wives…

Think about it; David’s bosom isn’t his genitals. God saying the one doesn’t justify the other. And in Davids old age, a virgin (Abishag the Shunamite) is sent to him to keep him warm at night – but the text makes it clear, David never used her sexually.

1King 1:3 So they sought a beautiful young woman, in all the coasts of Israel and they found Abisag, a Sunamitess, and brought her to the king.
1King 1:4 And the damsel was exceedingly beautiful, and she slept with the king, and served him, but the king did not know her.

And that woman who was never married to the King, nor had sexual relations with him, is at the heart of a dispute over whether Solomon or a treacherous brother of his has the right to the kingdom just a few paragraph’s hence. She’s nothing more than a pretty hot water bottle !

And again; David inherited the kingdom from Saul; It would normally be Saul’s sons who were responsible for their mother. But David upset the natural order – and by becoming king, he became responsible for the welfare of all Saul’s household; not just Saul’s wives, but his lame son as well.

Atheists and one liners… what a hoot.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I
Sadly, I keep hearing how even adultery is not a just cause for divorce–so the woman continues to be forced to live tied to a man that has long lost all respect for the Sacrament of marriage, for his wife, for his family, and for God!

Maran atha!

Angel

Adultery is cause for a divorce; even of a legitimate marriage;
See Canon law: #1152
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P45.HTM

As far as I recall he was following the church’s commandment. After all it was the wife who effected the separation. His sadness came from the difficulty this caused him. . St Paul seemed to understand this when he said, “But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion” 1 Corinthians 7:9. and even Christ when encouraging the state of eunochhood for the sake of the kingdom of God said, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given". Matthew 19.11. So obviously it is not given to everybody to refrain from all sexual activity.

So we have an interesting dilemma. Eunochhood is the desired state. But if that means you will burn with passion then it is better that you marry. Now presumably if you marry then it is because you feel that you cannot live without sex. So if your spouse separates and divorces you, you cannot remarry as it is forbidden so you are left to burn with passion. And St Paul says it is better to marry than to burn. So it is a catch 22 situation.

It isn’t a catch-22 for you – and to be more like you, a depressed men can take anti-depressants; many of them have the side effect of releasing him from sex drive altogether. God’s grace today, for some, is anti-depressants…

A Catholic woman, properly raised, would not put her husband in this position in the first place without a just reason. Marriage, joined under God’s law, is different than marriage joined at the justice of the peace… A woman who is taking advantage of a man’s weakness, however, doesn’t necessarily stop a man from re-marrying although she does make his life miserable regardless. For taking advantage of someone as a paycheck while convenient, but being flagrantly immature and refusing any semblance of honoring their oath to their spouse isn’t marriage – and the Church can see and judge that type of person.

No man or woman is required to get married; by definition and law, it must be their free choice. Once they have chosen, however, they are no longer free to do as they please; And part of that free choice brings about a duty to protect their spouse from sexual temptation;

So (long term) cutting off of sexual activity as part of a fight or as extortion is forbidden; it not only interrupts the prayer life of the couple by distressing one or the other – it also makes a lie of the marriage vows.

 

[jcrichton]

Jesus doesn’t say anything about adultery, the word in the Greek is “pornea” which is variously translated or taken to mean illicitness by the Church. So, essentially, if somebody enters into marriage without full consent of the will, without knowledge and recognition of the finality of the vows, etc. the Church recognizes that no sacramental marriage has occurred. If a sacramnetal marriage has occurred even adultery can’t dissolve it.

…thank you for the clarification; I have always understood the phrase to be “except in the case of adultery;” I will check my Bibles to see if there are any variations to that particular passage.

…still, what then is the recouse of a spouse whose husband/wife is constantly having extramarital affairs?

Thanks, again!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[wu123]

The idea of my needing a handbag is puzzling. How is it that men, of discount Loewe handbags whom I am the equal in all other respects, appear to be well served by their back pockets or (if they are European) sleek tiny manpurses? Why cannot discount Damier Graphite Canvas I manage as well? All I must over is lipstick, eyeliner, pressed powder, reading glasses, sun shades, tiny fragrance spray, sunscreen, Kleenex, tiny brush, tic tacs, chocolate bar, tiny sewing kit, liquid Wholesale Cheap Jerseys soap, wash-n-drys, address book, key chain (with nine Wholesale Cheap Jerseys keys, of which I have no idea what they open), and a wallet (containing charge cards, check book, pics of kids, membership cards, and cards that are stamped for cup of discount Loewe handbags coffee at a shop I’ll seldom visit again). When my kids were tiny, I also carried crayons and coloring books, fruit snacks, discount Damier Graphite Canvas and a alter of underpants.

 

[jcrichton]

No, I am just saying beware of using the word “always”. It is fairly obvious that divorces often have an effect on the children and family. Having said that some children prefer and even want their parents to be divorced if one of the parents is abusive. Some people are more civilised in how they go about divorces whereas others can be very hostile indeed. Usually there is some sadness. But people can and do learn from their mistakes and sosometimes but not always have a more contented and successful second marriage. It is not really a judgment of good v bad but better v worse.

It is a truism to say that if one pursues what will not make us happy then one won’t be happy. Christians say what is lacking is an absence of God by which they mean not obeying God’s will and to the Buddhist it is expecting the impermanent to be permanent and the insubstantial to be substantial.

…the more civilised often use comodity and gain as the measure of success while rejecting sacrifice and compromise; according to Scriptures God’s Commandments are permanent and they bring substantial joy, happiness and peace to those who Worship in Spirit and in Truth… so if I were to Love my wife and children and extended family and all others as myself, I would be enhancing not hindering both my own life and that of others… conversely, when I determine to ignore God and engage in selfish acts… happiness and peace is the furthest from my mind, consequently, I and those around me would be living the experience molded according to my ego and not God’s Will.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

i.e referring to an abandoned single mother looking for male support who wants to live with her, support her child but is happy to forgo sex.

Such selflessness is rare. Most men would look for a woman they can have sex with. This is true of Catholic marriages, a sexual relationship is desired. And most women understand this. They also know that sex helps to bond the relationship at least in the early stages. This is why early sex in a relationship is not a good thing as the bonding creates such desire that one overlooks the faults of the other and whether the relationship can be workable in the long run.

However, you are saying that once a permanent separation takes place then remarriage is not allowed and celibacy must be practiced. Even if the person burns with desire. And as St Paul says it is better to marry than to burn. And as he says this not just to virgins, not just to the unmarried but to widows, he recognises that even those who have been married can still burn with desire.

The situation is that if a husband leaves his wife through death she is free to marry and indulge in sex but if he leaves her for another then she must practice celibacy and does not have the solution to “burning” with desire that the widow has. So, as I said before, it is a catch 22.

Of course divorce should be discouraged but one also has to be practical of people’s capabilities. Having been to a junior seminary, when such places still existed, I became familiar with the many stories of priests who did not have a natural aptitude for chastity such as the use of prostitutes etc.

In my Buddhist days, we were encouraged to practise chastity. It is a very difficult matter to set up the right conditions. Personally I found it very easy when living in nature with no women in sight but not so in the middle of a city. An acquaintance of mine had no problem in a town but had problems if he did not have access to classical music and the fine arts even if he was in the countryside and away from women. The sex drive needs to be sublimated as suppression creates worse problems.

For those who do not have a natural ability to practice permanent chastity it seems to come out in other perverse ways i.e overeating (the deadly sin of gluttony) or irritability (the deadly sin of anger) or compulsive sexual behaviour. This has been my experience from practicing and observing others practicing chastity.

It is my belief that some are not capable of practicing permanent chastity and one does more harm than good by insisting that they comply.

I understand what you are saying; but St. Paul is not suggesting that Christians marry, remarry, and remarry till we get it right! He is speaking to those who were virgins and to widows (that is why he suggest that any young widow should not be placed in a possition of importance in the Church as they may fail to live to their obligations once they catch the eye of a suiter); the importance of a chaste life is not only for personal control/benefit but also as to distinguish themselves from the pagans who practiced unbrideled orgies…

…and it does go back to mental rather than physical since athletes and others in all sorts of disciplines control their passions (sex, food, recreational drugs, hunger, thirst, ect.) in order to achieve what they consider to be an examplary task/goal; conversely, there are people who have given themselves to useless and destructive habits because they refuse to live a disciplined life… water travels through the path of least resistance–sadly, we are more fluid than water when it comes to obeying God’s Commandments!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

A selfless attitude is ideal for the good running of society which is no doubt why society encourages it. At least most people insist on others being more selfless . However, pure and complete selflessness, I have never come across and personally doubt it is possible. It is , of course, a very attractive ideal. But I would say that for even sincere Christians that there is some element of lust in the relationship otherwise it would never become a sexual relationship! Selfishness is very subtle. There is even a spiritual selfishness. You practise your religion to avoid hell and get the rewards of eternal bliss. The sophisticated Christian sometimes does not admit to this and says that they are Christians just for God’s sake. But judging by their admissions to being a sinner, I take what they claim here with a pinch of salt. If they are selfish in material matters then I am sure they are selfish in spiritual ones too.

But Christians are not meant to be devoid of emotions; the difference between Christians and non-Christians is that we are compelled to act in self-control while non-Chritians often relish using and abusing themselves and everyone and everything around them; while I will not defend Christians as purists, I doubt that most who call themselves Christians are in persuit of sin as the means to selfuflfillment; what you, and others, may call selfishness is nothing more than self-preservation: live in sin = eternal damnation in hell!

Further, being Christian does not equate to being God, hence the sinner part (for all have sinned; there’s none just, not even one; if you say you have no sin, you make God a liar…); the Command is to perfection not to claiming to be perfect… so evey day is a walk in Christ towards Christ…

…I suspect that you have met/engaged more than one person in your life who have been obedient to Christ and are as self-less as is Commanded–part of that discipline is that they cannot announce their humble obedience to Christ (do not be like the hypocrites that… instead do not let your right hand know… do not seek man’s praises…)

…do Christian fail to live according to Christ’s Commandments? Yes! But only those who pridefully refuse to repent (to turn back to God) and strive to deepen his/her commitment and relationship with Christ by becoming a humble, obedient and active member of His Mystical Body are foolishly thinking that they can deceive God and escape the wasges of sin!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hmm , well one can always strive for greater things. It is just one area that I will not harm people through but of course I can still harm them through other needs i.e social status, identity, employment etc. Interestingly I was given the option of chemical hormone treatment which is reversible when stopped. Most men take this option but I was not interested. I do not feel any less a man for lacking a libido. Whilst I was never a womaniser (more to do with lack of confidence rather than any virtue!) there are many detrimental aspects to the sexual urge other than the suffering unfaithfulness causes, such as sexual jealousy and the general weakness in character that comes from it. Some of us men will jump through hoops to get some sex even over looking bad behaviour from the spouse so as not to rock the boat. And of course there is an addictive element to it.

Anyway, thanks for the reminder to strive for greater things. Especially as life is so short.

Exactly my point; life being as short as it is you’d think that most of us would be seeking to be the best that we can be… unfortunately, in the absence of God “the best” can mean a myriad of things–most conductive to selfish fulfillments at the cost of almost anything and anyone… as you’ve pointed out you can inflict damage that is not sexually related… but my argument is still the same: if you Love God above all and your neighbor as yourself you would be striving to help rather than hinder yourself and others.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

As immoral and/or as moral. I do not notice much difference between the two groups. In the end it seems to come down to individuals and how their families brought them up. With regard to Catholics, they talk about morality a lot but they do not seem to stand out from any other group in their practice of it. The groups of people that I did find admirable in the Catholic Church by their way of life, such as those who lived in enclosed orders seem to be on the decline.

…though I was responding to the question posed by you… I think that there is a difference between Believers and non-Believers… and even between the average person that goes by the title of “Catholic” and the true observing Catholic… it is my experience that while an observing Catholic may fail he/she strives to improve both his moral and spiritual existence while the non-Believer seeks all sorts of pleasures in reckless abandon–there are exceptions on both sides… and sadly more Believers are embracing the path of least resisance (the road that leads to perdition) as they seek to be friends with the world–this is specially true for the religious who have been caught up in that “modern” movement.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It would seem that for many drug addicts even being faced with their own mortality is not enough. Of course, if one keeps failing then many will give up. personally the language of fighting is counter productive, one needs to sublimate and not suppress. The energy is real. It has to go somewhere.

…whatever term works for you… I think that what is important is that we find a productive way/s to channel that energy… I’ve found that even the ugliest person in the world could have a redeeming quality/attribute… I’ve also found that the worse thing that anyone can do to another person is to ignore them completely… both of these facts deal directly with mental attitudes… with a simple word/expression we can build or destroy the psyche of those around us… sex can be quite such a tool (back to mental) that can create or destroy–when self-absorved, self-destroy…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In my day to leave even the junior seminary was a shameful thing, certainly amongst the Irish community. So, it took a lot of courage to give up the vocation. Of course they know that they are taking on celibacy and are told that God will give them the grace. But they find themselves in the priesthood and still struggling. The lack of evidence in any higher morality amongst Catholics convinces me that there is no such thing as God’s grace. If the Catholic church had something unique then it should make a real difference in how Catholics live their lives.

So you must believe that every single Catholic Priest, Nun, Religious, and parishioner all over the world is the same as the worst Catholics that have been presented in the news… or are you speaking from personal experience among those “Catholics” that live around you?

God’s Grace does not operate on an empty vessel; if a person refuses to submit his/her will to Christ, God will not force him/her to capitulate; a person cannot expect Divine intervention only when he/she wants something from God while embracing anti-Christian values… have you ever watch the olympic games? …those athletes live and breath their sports… and while many may have momentary lapses their commitment to perfecting their abilities takes precedence to most everything else… mind over matter–for Catholics: Christ over matter!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Adultery is cause for a divorce; even of a legitimate marriage;
See Canon law: #1152
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P45.HTM

Thanks, I’ll check it out promptly!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Warrior1979]

The bond of marriage is perpetual; and what God hath joined, no power on earth can separate.

I’m curious: Is it the position of the Church that God will NEVER separate that which He hath joined?

 

[Nimeniton]

…the more civilised often use comodity and gain as the measure of success while rejecting sacrifice and compromise; according to Scriptures God’s Commandments are permanent and they bring substantial joy, happiness and peace to those who Worship in Spirit and in Truth… so if I were to Love my wife and children and extended family and all others as myself, I would be enhancing not hindering both my own life and that of others… conversely, when I determine to ignore God and engage in selfish acts… happiness and peace is the furthest from my mind, consequently, I and those around me would be living the experience molded according to my ego and not God’s Will.

Maran atha!

Angel

I certainly agree that selflessness takes one’s mind off oneself and the misery of pre-occupation. No belief in God is required for that.

As to God’s commandments being permanent , I would say au contraire that what are purported to be God’s commands seem to evolve over time. In the Old Testament God values the Israelite over the non Israelite. For example it was OK to keep non Israelites as slaves but not Israelites.Leviticus 25:44-46 And also you could beat a slave hard so long as he did not die Exodus 21:20-2. By the New Testament the Jew and the Hebrew are seen as equal in the eye of God even though slavery is still condoned, one is expected to treat them better than the example given in Exodus 21:20-2. In time , however, even the Popes are issuing bulls condemning slavery.

So just in this example we can see that God’s commands are not permanent but evolving. In this case that slavery is acceptable to not acceptable; and from being able to beat a slave to treating them well

 

[Nimeniton]

I understand what you are saying; but St. Paul is not suggesting that Christians marry, remarry, and remarry till we get it right! He is speaking to those who were virgins and to widows (that is why he suggest that any young widow should not be placed in a possition of importance in the Church as they may fail to live to their obligations once they catch the eye of a suiter); the importance of a chaste life is not only for personal control/benefit but also as to distinguish themselves from the pagans who practiced unbrideled orgies…Angel

Let’s be precise he was talking to the unmarried and widows and not to virgins and widows, though some and even many of the unmarried may have been virgins but we can’t assume that they must have** all **been virgins… The church did after all attract sinners! I would agree that he was not idealising re-marriage. The ideal is chastity but he is making allowances for people’s weaknesses. There is also a difference between permanent chastity and temporary chastity. It is for example good to practice restraint in what one eats but one would not argue from that that complete abstinence is a good thing. The consequences in this case is death. For those who have strong sexual urges the consequences of permanent repression whilst not as severe as those for complete absence of food leads to perversions.

…and it does go back to mental rather than physical since athletes and others in all sorts of disciplines control their passions (sex, food, recreational drugs, hunger, thirst, ect.) in order to achieve what they consider to be an examplary task/goal; conversely, there are people who have given themselves to useless and destructive habits because they refuse to live a disciplined life… water travels through the path of least resistance–sadly, we are more fluid than water when it comes to obeying God’s Commandments!

Maran atha!

Angel

I think your view of athletes is rather idealistic considering the widespread abuse of performance enhancing drugs. However, temporary abstinence of sex has long been encouraged in sport a few days before an event for reasons of conserving energy. And , of course there has to be discipline.Permanent chastity, however, has never been encouraged. Judging by the sexual exploits of some top professional footballers in the UK at least, I am drawn to the conclusion that they have larger sexual appetites than normal.

As to it being mental rather than physical you can always read what those who have sex addictions/obsessions say. How often they use the mental will to suppress the drive and how time after time they fail despite periods of abstinence. Only after realising that the use of their own mental power is not enough do they then turn to others for help. One of the interesting findings I have discovered from my discussions on religious forums is how often evangelical converts have been former addicts of all types. They no longer believe in self power but look for help from without. They believe that God gives them the grace. Personally, I believe the support comes from finding a supportive community.

 

[Nimeniton]

Exactly my point; life being as short as it is you’d think that most of us would be seeking to be the best that we can be… unfortunately, in the absence of God “the best” can mean a myriad of things–most conductive to selfish fulfillments at the cost of almost anything and anyone… as you’ve pointed out you can inflict damage that is not sexually related… but my argument is still the same: if you Love God above all and your neighbor as yourself you would be striving to help rather than hinder yourself and others.

Maran atha!

Angel

I suspect there is something in us that makes us forget our mortality. In July of this year I was told I had metastatic prostate cancer cancer i.e had spread to the bones. They could only delay the inevitable through hormone treatment, in my case the orchiectomy, by on average two years though some lived up to five years and more rarely ten. When I told people this news many said how sorry they were for me. But when you think of it we should all be sorry for each other as we are all going to die. Some of those commiserating with me may indeed die earlier than me. The only difference was that an expert had given me a timeline. People like to give themselves long lifelines, myself included. There is no rational reason to do that. Just because statistics say we can live 70 plus years does not mean that will be our life span.

Another example of this distancing ourselves from our own mortality is the shock we feel when we hear someone is near death or has just died. Why should it be a shock? Millions die every year. What is there to be shocked about. It is a very common event. But yet we are shocked. Anyway, I do not fault people for this, it is just something I have noticed. Perhaps for some to dwell on death may lead them to being depressed.