SPLIT: Musical instruments at Mass

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Well apparently you haven’t read the lifeteen planning guides.
There’s a lot of always/never statements going on here. You have not done your research here, and are making false accusations…

In just a casual flipping through my 4 lit planners I have available at home (the ones that match the current cycle as I do my planning away from my office) , I found this within 3 minutes. Almost every week has what you define as “sacred music”. Please watch your absolute statements.

From the lifeteen liturgy planner: St. Cecelia’s Corner pg 44 May 13, 2007
Today’s main “key word” for the liturgy is tradition. There are many great resources available where you can get suggestions for traditional pieces. If they work with teens, use them. Traditional music is not bad, but needs to be, like any other type of music, done well. There are traditional pieces that are very beautiful that if done in the right manner can effectively touch teens… Please do not remove this tradition from our church…

Song suggestion from 3 years ago
June 3, 2007 pg 68
Holy Holy Holy

p 127 St. Cecelia’s corner: June 6, 2004 Trinity Sunday
“Holy Holy Holy” is an old hymn, but a classic as well. Don’t be afraid to sing this hymn with your teens. Keep it simple, you don’t have to be too creative with this one, let the song play itself. …

Song suggestions: current liturgical planner
Easter:
. p 21 Jesus Christ is risen today
Joyful Joyful

June 27, 2010
P 98 All Creatures of our God and King
But, these are rare exceptions. I am curious, just how many Traditional hymns have you used for your group? Have you introduced chant to the teenagers?

It seems as though, in the planning guide that you cited, there is still some aprehension to using “Holy, Holy, Holy” as though the age of the sound would have some bad connotation. Even the introducton that you quoted, while seemingly encouraging Traditional music, seems to have somewhat of an attitude and these statements, as I reada them, are somewhat questionable.

Actually, the teens should be encouraged to learn the Traditional hymns of the Church’s sacred music treasury. The P&W genre would be better left, as I see it, for outside of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, especially since we are now entering one of the most solemn points of the liturgical year, Lent.
 
I’m curious.

Those of you who say that Praise and Worship music sounds “secular”–

How much Praise and Worship music have you actually listened to LIVE in a church setting?

I grew up playing piano, trained in the classics by a church pianist/organist (pipe organ).

I also grew up in a Baptist church which regularly used Praise and Worship music in the worship services. (It was called “Gospel” when I was growing up–same idea.)

So I know music.

Absolutely no way does live (in church) Praise and Worship music even vaguely resemble pop or rock music.

Now if you’ve listened to Praise and Worship music only via recording, then I can see your point and somewhat agree with you. When you hear all the insrumentation and the drum machine and the reverb–of course it sounds just like pop, rock, jazz, and possibly even a little soul, funk, and/or R and B.

But what you hear produced by the professionals in the studio is a whole lot different than what the faithful Christians sing in their church family accompanied by a live piano, live organ, or live small band/orchestra. There is absolutely no similiarity between family music and the studio stuff.

Of course, some local churches will use “tracks” for their Praise and Worship music, and this makes the music resemble secular pop or light rock. When we were still in the Protestant church, my husband and I objected often to the use of tracks in congregational singing. It seemed very fake to us–it WAS very fake, because the musicians weren’t there with us. We were following the track, instead of the musicians accompanying the singers.

But many churches try to use live musicians for their Praise and Worship time, and IMO, the music produced by Christians in church settings is sublime, reverent, and beautiful, and nothing at all, absolutely nothing, like secular music.

So I suggest that those who wish to compare Praise and Worship to “secular,” should please study it for a reasonable period of time (not just one random visit) in its church context before drawing any conclusions.
However, Cat, while the P&W genre may be alright for the Protestant ecclesial communities, it does not fit into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The context for this particular genre, which, whether you choose to admit this or not, has secular undertones to it, is for a Protestant worship service, not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The two are incompatible. It is a case where one song is not as good as another for use in the Church’s liturgy.
 
But, these are rare exceptions. I am curious, just how many Traditional hymns have you used for your group? Have you introduced chant to the teenagers?

It seems as though, in the planning guide that you cited, there is still some aprehension to using “Holy, Holy, Holy” as though the age of the sound would have some bad connotation. Even the introducton that you quoted, while seemingly encouraging Traditional music, seems to have somewhat of an attitude and these statements, as I reada them, are somewhat questionable.

Actually, the teens should be encouraged to learn the Traditional hymns of the Church’s sacred music treasury. The P&W genre would be better left, as I see it, for outside of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, especially since we are now entering one of the most solemn points of the liturgical year, Lent.
No, they are NOT rare exceptions, where in the world do you get that? I stated, in almost every week there is a song or 2 from what you consider “sacred music”. Now YOU are the one selectively reading. What I listed there was what I found from the 4 handy liturgical guides in just a couple of minutes. I didn’t scour each one.

'You’ve asked me this before in other threads and I’ve answered you. I am not discussing my practice here. I’ve told you repeatedly that yes, they do chant, and yes we do traditional hymns. I don’t have to answer to you here and my practice here is not being discussed.

You read them wrong, there is not apprehension, but encouragement, realizing that there might be apprehension from those reading it. There is no “attitude” in the statement, just like always you are reading what you want to read with a bias, rather than what is in black and white.

You stated that “Nowhere do they even suggest using genuine Sacred Music”. I have proven that wrong.

Point done.
 
I’m curious.

Those of you who say that Praise and Worship music sounds “secular”–

How much Praise and Worship music have you actually listened to LIVE in a church setting?

I grew up playing piano, trained in the classics by a church pianist/organist (pipe organ).

I also grew up in a Baptist church which regularly used Praise and Worship music in the worship services. (It was called “Gospel” when I was growing up–same idea.)

So I know music.

Absolutely no way does live (in church) Praise and Worship music even vaguely resemble pop or rock music.

Now if you’ve listened to Praise and Worship music only via recording, then I can see your point and somewhat agree with you. When you hear all the insrumentation and the drum machine and the reverb–of course it sounds just like pop, rock, jazz, and possibly even a little soul, funk, and/or R and B.

But what you hear produced by the professionals in the studio is a whole lot different than what the faithful Christians sing in their church family accompanied by a live piano, live organ, or live small band/orchestra. There is absolutely no similiarity between family music and the studio stuff.

Of course, some local churches will use “tracks” for their Praise and Worship music, and this makes the music resemble secular pop or light rock. When we were still in the Protestant church, my husband and I objected often to the use of tracks in congregational singing. It seemed very fake to us–it WAS very fake, because the musicians weren’t there with us. We were following the track, instead of the musicians accompanying the singers.

But many churches try to use live musicians for their Praise and Worship time, and IMO, the music produced by Christians in church settings is sublime, reverent, and beautiful, and nothing at all, absolutely nothing, like secular music.

So I suggest that those who wish to compare Praise and Worship to “secular,” should please study it for a reasonable period of time (not just one random visit) in its church context before drawing any conclusions.
I have been to many different churches throughout the country and I have to tell you that the majority of Masses are using music that sound secular. (Although especially on the South West - NV, CA, NM, AZ). There are cases that do not flash them up especially when played on a keyboard or a piano but they still sound either chorus line, or lounge singer style to me. ( I know, I’ve done the Hilton Inn Lounge act guy for a couple of years). The point being that If you go to a High Mass at a traditional church (Latin or English) and then go to a contemporary church there is a disconnect between the two. The music is supposed to be part of the Liturgy. Most weeks when I pick songs from OCPs Breaking Bread, I spend hours looking for a song that will fit in style and lyrics to what the readings are. It has been very difficult to find something that will fit. None of the Mass settings are appropriate either (except for the Chant Mass and the Heritage Mass). Most of the others have added words or are very secular sounding.
 
There are times that I go to a High Mass or Traditional Church and it feels as if I’m at a hockey or baseball game. In both cases, Contemporary or Traditional, it all depends on whose doing the music.

I’ve been reading up on this some, and it does appear that Motu Proprio speaks of other instruments being allowed under special circumstances if permission is given from the Ordinary. The preference is the Organ, of course (just as the preference is apparently only men in the choir), but it says in a couple of areas how “*In some special cases, within due limits and within the proper regards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special licence of the ordinary, according to theCæremoniale episcoporum”. *. At least that’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia says anyway.

Something else I find interesting is from what I read “to employ non-Catholics in church as singers and organists is only tolerated in case of urgent necessity, because they neither believe nor feel the words which they sing”.

What I would like to know from some; is it better and preferable to have a non-Catholic do the music rather than have devout, reverent Catholics use other instruments?
 
No, they are NOT rare exceptions, where in the world do you get that? I stated, in almost every week there is a song or 2 from what you consider “sacred music”. Now YOU are the one selectively reading. What I listed there was what I found from the 4 handy liturgical guides in just a couple of minutes. I didn’t scour each one.

'You’ve asked me this before in other threads and I’ve answered you. I am not discussing my practice here. I’ve told you repeatedly that yes, they do chant, and yes we do traditional hymns. I don’t have to answer to you here and my practice here is not being discussed.

You read them wrong, there is not apprehension, but encouragement, realizing that there might be apprehension from those reading it. There is no “attitude” in the statement, just like always you are reading what you want to read with a bias, rather than what is in black and white.

You stated that “Nowhere do they even suggest using genuine Sacred Music”. I have proven that wrong.

Point done.
Actually, you have not really proven much. The guide is only suggesting a handful of hymns. Most of their genre is of the Praise and Worship genre. While you state you will not discuss your practice, I believe that what I asking you is a fair question. Have you made any effort to introduce the teenagers to the Church’s patrimony of Sacred Music? Are they exposed to chant? Or, are they merely given to drink only Praise and Worship music, something that will not be as enduring as what the Church has held dear and in the highest esteem for several centuries.

We do not do the youth any favors by merely giving them music that sounds just like what they listen to on the radio. Again, if you want to do P&W, complete with a band, that is fine for retreasts. However, for the Holy sacrifice of the Mass, the music should be sublime, solemn, majestic and dignified.
 
There are times that I go to a High Mass or Traditional Church and it feels as if I’m at a hockey or baseball game. In both cases, Contemporary or Traditional, it all depends on whose doing the music.

I’ve been reading up on this some, and it does appear that Motu Proprio speaks of other instruments being allowed under special circumstances if permission is given from the Ordinary. The preference is the Organ, of course (just as the preference is apparently only men in the choir), but it says in a couple of areas how “*In some special cases, within due limits and within the proper regards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special licence of the ordinary, according to theCæremoniale episcoporum”. *. At least that’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia says anyway.

Something else I find interesting is from what I read “to employ non-Catholics in church as singers and organists is only tolerated in case of urgent necessity, because they neither believe nor feel the words which they sing”.

What I would like to know from some; is it better and preferable to have a non-Catholic do the music rather than have devout, reverent Catholics use other instruments?
Believe it or not, the previous director of music at my old parish in Austin was a Methodist. However, he actually had more of the Sensus Fidei than a lot of Catholic musicians I have met through the years. He had a genuine love of authentic Sacred Music, as defined by the Church. In fact, his wife served as director of music for another parish in Austin.

Our director even wrote the settings for the psalms and the Ordinary of the Mass, always faithful to the official texts. He even employed a lot of Latin, especially during Lent. He is also a fine organist, as is his wife.

Now, a recent statement from the Holy See removes the authorization of instruments from the individual bishop and has moved it to the episcopal conferences. However, there is the stipulation that they need to follow the authoritative documents of the Church governing the particular instruments involved. This includes the provision regarding the primary association with secular use.

It is sad to hear that you think that the TLM sounds like you were at a baseball game. With all due respect, I do not know if you had ever been exposed to genuine sacred music as it was meant to be used. For me, the times I have been at a Youth Mass, it was more of a rock concert setting. The drums, electric guitars, electric bass guitars detracted from the solemnity, dignity and majest of the Mass. A priest friend of mine was very discombobulated when he had to celebrate such a Mass. He did not find it all edifying and was rather jarred by the whole experience. He told me that there was a huge disconnect between the music and the liturgy, and, he is not an old priest. He likes classic rock and Jesus Christ Superstar, but, not for the Mass.
 
Actually, you have not really proven much. The guide is only suggesting a handful of hymns. Most of their genre is of the Praise and Worship genre. While you state you will not discuss your practice, I believe that what I asking you is a fair question. Have you made any effort to introduce the teenagers to the Church’s patrimony of Sacred Music? Are they exposed to chant? Or, are they merely given to drink only Praise and Worship music, something that will not be as enduring as what the Church has held dear and in the highest esteem for several centuries.

We do not do the youth any favors by merely giving them music that sounds just like what they listen to on the radio. Again, if you want to do P&W, complete with a band, that is fine for retreasts. However, for the Holy sacrifice of the Mass, the music should be sublime, solemn, majestic and dignified.
Actually, I have proven much.You said “NOWHERE” I said, “where” and proved it.

I already answered your question SO many times. Get over it.
 
Actually, I have proven much.You said “NOWHERE” I said, “where” and proved it.

I already answered your question SO many times. Get over it.
There is no need to be rude, agapewolf, With all due respect, you really have not answered anything. Please find in the LifeTeen Liturgy planner, the one on their website, where they advocate and support using Traditional, Sacred music. Most of what is used is out of Spirit and Song, a song book not known for being Traditional.

Again, you still have not answered my question about exposing the teens in your group to genuine Sacred music, especially during Lent. Oddly enough, the hymns that you cited in your website are not chants. Granted, they are traditional, but, they are not chants. I asked about chants and Latin.
 
There is no need to be rude, agapewolf, With all due respect, you really have not answered anything. Please find in the LifeTeen Liturgy planner, the one on their website, where they advocate and support using Traditional, Sacred music. Most of what is used is out of Spirit and Song, a song book not known for being Traditional.

Again, you still have not answered my question about exposing the teens in your group to genuine Sacred music, especially during Lent. Oddly enough, the hymns that you cited in your website are not chants. Granted, they are traditional, but, they are not chants. I asked about chants and Latin.
You’ve got to be kidding…You didn’t even read what I just posted then. I already quoted it.

Yes, i’ve answered it. I’ve answered so many times over.
 
So, to be clear, you would rather have someone sing/play the organ a piece about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist when they actually don’t believe it…instead of reverent believers who don’t use the organ?

Cat’s post summed up several great points that I won’t bother repeating. The points speak for themselves for the most part. Your comment about Protestants is interesting, as we’ve cribbed Sacred Music from protestants for ages. And of course, there’s also the issue that the Church has always been influenced by secular music throughout the years, whether people like to admit it or not. For example, in the early Church we used primary Jewish style music, however eventually Greek influences started to be integrated. Now we’re seeing the same thing, with more modern instruments being taken in. Over the years we’ve seen music evolve in the Church with the organ being introduced and women being permitted to sing. Which has come a long way from people used to have issues with any music at all.

Music is language, and all languages evolve.

And finally, with all due respect, just because someone is alright (or prefers) with contemporary music at Mass does not automatically mean they have not been exposed to Sacred Music in a “genuine” sense. Do we need to start prefacing all of our posts with our musical resume so we’ll be taken seriously? But since Cat broke the ice already…

The letters you see in my signature are certifications from Microsoft, Cisco, and CompTIA. For those who don’t know, they’re computer certifications for IT Personnel and are often needed to get jobs in the field. I went back to school to take those exams, and I’m finishing up within the next week or so. But this isn’t the first time I went to school.

From a technical stand point, I understand things about music. In my “past life” I graduated from TV - Broadcasting, specializing in video editing and doing sound in a live (and studio) environment. To be truly exceptional in doing live sound, you need a good ear. You need to be able to catch acoustics, harmonies, resonances. You need to catch frequencies that most people can’t, frequencies that are within the range of the human ear, but most people can’t catch. You need to be able to adjust different audio levels, balance the channels on the board so there’s a proper mix. It’s hard, unless you have a good natural ear and a natural intuition for it, and it is without being boastful I can say with confidence that I had (and still do) both the ear and the skills. Good enough to do it for a living, even. So the “sublime” you speak of, the “subtleties”, I can hear all of those with ease.

From a historical stand point, I understand things. My wife is a double major, vocal performance and composition. She has, for several years, been constant with her studies in the classical music scene. Over the time I have known her I have learned much about musical history, either through her or through wanting to better understand what she loves.

From a musician stand point, I understand things. I started playing drums at Church, and God continues to work in me to help me improve. Rhythm, timing, beats, volume, sound, all of it comes together in a natural blend thanks to the Lord.

From a participation stand point, I understand things. I have heard some great pieces of Sacred Music. I have been to the local Sacred Music Society’s concerts. I have been to our city’s orchestra. I have been to my wife’s concerts and heard her original Sacred Music scores. I have heard her talk about what she teaches the kids at her school. I live close by the Basilica that does a High Mass who has a wonderful priest and a talented organ player. I have been exposed to great, genuine Sacred Music that from a technical standpoint was well done.

Yet I still enjoy contemporary music at Mass, and will continue to play drums at them. I travel an hour plus to get to my parish when the High Mass is about 10 minutes away. On some Sundays I go to both, other Sundays only my parish. I know you might have trouble with this, but like Cat said earlier it is possible that people can think contemporary music is “sublime, solemn, majestic and dignified”. You might find this also hard to believe, but you can do this with contemporary instruments as well. I know this because, praise the Lord, people actually have described our music it in some of those words. Everything you describe about Sacred Music, we’ve been told ourselves after Mass every so often.

Your belief that people “haven’t been exposed to genuine Sacred Music” has now been refuted by two separate people with two different backgrounds. And even if it hasn’t it really boils down to one’s taste and attitude going into Mass. If you go in thinking “Sacred Music is horrible” you won’t give it a chance. If you go in thinking “contemporary music shouldn’t be done at Mass” then you probably won’t like it. It’s very subjective because music is a subjective subject. And since you are often discussing points that are very subjective, as some will disagree with you on it (just as some will disagree with your affinity to the Latin Rite and some will disagree with my Franciscan Spirituality).

The documents you have provided give food for thought, and we all thank you for them. But your subjective opinions are not necessarily to be treated as fact, as obviously some people will simply disagree. To use a food analogy; it’s as if might you might be lactose intolerant, but someone else can drink that milk for calcium.
 
You’ve got to be kidding…You didn’t even read what I just posted then. I already quoted it.

Yes, i’ve answered it. I’ve answered so many times over.
I did read what you posted, but, I am asking you how you are handling the situation. Unless, what you posted is from your /B] parish. In any case, you only cited enough songs to make up the count in one hand.
 
I did read what you posted, but, I am asking you how you are handling the situation. Unless, what you posted is from your /B] parish. In any case, you only cited enough songs to make up the count in one hand.

I’ve answered that question so many times over throughout the threads, I’m tired of answering it.

I ALREADY STATED. THIS WAS ONLY FROM A GLANCE FROM 4 LIT PLANNING GUIDES I HAD IN MY HANDS AT MY HOME.

How many times do I have to say this?

B-gal, why do you think so many threads you post on get closed, or a moratorium gets posted with the causes you take up? Because you don’t have an honest conversation with what is stated, instead of deflecting, or speaking of the points raised, or trying to push some other doubt that has no place in the situation.

Can you stay on topic please? You JUST said,
Please find in the LifeTeen Liturgy planner, the one on their website, where they advocate and support using Traditional, Sacred music
 
Melchior, with all due respect, my points have not been successfully reputed, neither by Cat nor agapewolf Agapewolf cited examples that one could count on one’s hand. The rest of the mix is generally chosen from Spirit and Song, a book not known for promoting anything traditional. It has very few Traditional hymns and, sadly, even at that point, it completely butchered Alleluia, Sing to Jesus to the point that it deleted all of the Eucharistic references the hymn contains. Cat did not really mention sacred music. She referenced Gospel music, a genre that is also not necessarily compatible with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Now,regarding our Methodist music director, I was not the one who hired him, my former parish did. A Catholic has since taken his place, and, oddly enough, some of the music, from what I understand, has tanked.

However, his Methodist beliefs do not detract from the fact that the organist in question had a greater sense of what is genuine Sacred Music than some of what I have encountered today. The music was always Tradtional. He incorporated chant. He incorporated Latin. He wrote Mass settings that were faithful to the text, which is more than I can say for Bob Hurd and the OCP bunch. For a Protestant, he actually knew more about Sacred Music than most Catholic musicians I know who have drunk too much of the OCP punch. He promoted genuine Sacred music, even with the school’s choir. He never brought in any of his Methodist influences into the Church. What he selected and played was consistent with what the documents of the Church stated. I know because I sat on the parish liturgy committee and he always made a great effort to be consistent with what the Church documents said. He did not engage in any creativity nor did he do strange things. It was always by-the-book.

Why he never became a Catholic after nearly a decade of playing the organ at every Mass, I do not know. He never went to his own ecclesial communities because he was playing all of the weekend Masses. Maybe he and his wife wound up becoming Catholic. It’s been about 10 years since I last saw him. All I know is that for the time that he was there, we had the best music because it was exactly what the documents stated it should be. It was edifying, it was majestic, it was solemn and it was noble. I cannot say the same thing about the music at Life Teen.

Sacred Music should not be consigned to a musem nor to a concert hall. It belongs in the Church because it is part and parcel of who we are. Not exposing young people to the treasures of the Church’s Sacred Music does a terrible disservice to them. Not exposing them to the organ and to chant robs them of their birthright as Catholics.

As I see it, contemporary P&W is not consistent with the heavenly liturgy. The genre is still secular, not matter how many “Christianized” lyrics you insert into a song. The instruments will still have the sound and the feel of secular pop/soft rock because that is what their primary association is.
 
I’ve answered that question so many times over throughout the threads, I’m tired of answering it.

I ALREADY STATED. THIS WAS ONLY FROM A GLANCE FROM 4 LIT PLANNING GUIDES I HAD IN MY HANDS AT MY HOME.

How many times do I have to say this?

B-gal, why do you think so many threads you post on get closed, or a moratorium gets posted with the causes you take up? Because you don’t have an honest conversation with what is stated, instead of deflecting, or speaking of the points raised, or trying to push some other doubt that has no place in the situation.

Can you stay on topic please? You JUST said,

When I already quoted several pages where it does. Stop ignoring it.
You still have not answered my question. Inasmuch as you cited four sources, they still had scant uses of Traditional hymns. I am not deflecting, agapewolf, you are. You have yet to answer my question. Rather than use the PW for the Mass, why not save that for LifeNight and use genuine sacred music instead, especially now that we are entering a solemn period where the musical instruments should be used on a very limited basis?

I went back and read your post. I counted only four Traditional hymns that were suggested. That hardly counts as a huge selection, agapewolf. Why limit it to just four? Why not just have genuine sacred music for the teenagers and, as I have stated before, leave the PW stuff for LifeNight?

Furthermore, even when the document you cited suggests using Traditional music, it almost makes it sound as though such will be a turn-off the teenagers. It’s as though they are suggesting its usage, but, with some aprehension.

With all due respect, you are the one not reading what I have written. You have yet to answer my question as to what you are doing. If what you are doing is just using four Traditional songs and making it seem like that is a lot, I do not think that it is enough. Would it be too radical to depart from the LifeTeen program and use genuine sacred music or, with all due respect, have we come to a point where the movement is more important than the integrity of the Liturgy?
 
Corruption in sacred music came not from without but from within. To be brief, Gregorian Chant “mutated” or became elaborated into such things as polyphony and some almost operatic. To reign it in, so as not it is not to become a distraction, and Holy Mass a theatre production, directives as to what consituted sacred music were and are issued. Corruption came from within, where then is the point of closing the door to external influence?

Earlier, on another thread, I have posted:
  • Mozart, Mason - Lodge Master of a Masonic Temple;
  • Schubert - Changed the words of Holy Mass so as it would accommodate his music, and a Pantheist, and
  • Bach - Lutheran cleric
All have been adopted as Catholic composers.
 
Corruption in sacred music came not from without but from within. To be brief, Gregorian Chant “mutated” or became elaborated into such things as polyphony and some almost operatic. To reign it in, so as not it is not to become a distraction, and Holy Mass a theatre production, directives as to what consituted sacred music were and are issued. Corruption came from within, where then is the point of closing the door to external influence?

Earlier, on another thread, I have posted:
  • Mozart, Mason - Lodge Master of a Masonic Temple;
  • Schubert - Changed the words of Holy Mass so as it would accommodate his music, and a Pantheist and
  • Bach - Lutheran cleric
All have been adopted as Catholic composers.
Kevin, in your quest to try and disprove me, I would suggest, with all due respect, that you read the authoritative documents of the Church. Pope Benedict XVI is a huge admirer of Mozart. In fact, he speaks highly of his music. Pope Benedict XVI is also an accomplished musician and he knows a great deal about Sacred Music.

For your information, Gregorian Chant has its roots in Judaism. The psalms were chanted. When the Gospels report that Jesus and the 11 sang a hymn as they went to Gethsemane, they were chanting one of the psalms.
 
It was edifying, it was majestic, it was solemn and it was noble. ** I cannot say the same thing** about the music at Life Teen.
** As I see it.**
I like how after I wrote 6000+ words you came back with the same subjective opinions. As strong as you state your opinions, they are still that; opinions. You’ve never been to my Church, never heard our music, never even seen our program. You assume much, my friend. And with these assumptions, you are demeaning the hard work myself and others have put into the program, you demean the people who have been touched by the ministry, and you demean those that are affected by our music in the words you describe.

Assuming. And I’m sure you know what assuming does.

Kevin’s point is that the Church accepted those composers as they played a role in the evolution of music in both a religious and secular way. Music will always have influences and evolve, it’s a language. You proved his point be stating that outside Protestant sources and outside influences have been accepted by the Church, including secular composers from a different era. Tell me, do you use any Olivier Messiaen?

With all due respect, it seem hypocritical to me you that preach from those documents, yet for ten years a Methodist was running the show at your other Church. Several of those documents also state that preferably men and boys should be doing the music as well, unless I read the Catholic Encyclopedia wrong.

And you don’t need to continually use “with all due respect”. As, with all due respect, it comes across as patronizing (in my opinion).
 
Kevin, in your quest to try and disprove me, I would suggest, with all due respect, that you read the authoritative documents of the Church. Pope Benedict XVI is a huge admirer of Mozart. In fact, he speaks highly of his music. Pope Benedict XVI is also an accomplished musician and he knows a great deal about Sacred Music.

For your information, Gregorian Chant has its roots in Judaism. The psalms were chanted. When the Gospels report that Jesus and the 11 sang a hymn as they went to Gethsemane, they were chanting one of the psalms.
Why do you think I have a personal vendetta to try and disprove you?
Pope Benedict XV1 may be a huge admirer of Mozart, this does not disprove Mozart had other influences from outside the Catholic Church.
Gregorian Chant was not restricted only to the addition of words to old melodies or to the creation of new ones, but also found an outlet in the simultaneous combination of both old and new melodies.

“You have my permission to admit other skilled musicians as assistants if you so desire” (Pope Gregory X111, Brief on the Reform of the Chant, October 25, 1577)
 
I am poring through five years of speeches that the Holy Father delivered concerning Sacred Music that should, I believe, address some items brought up by Kevin Wilcox and others. Inasmuch as these are not ex-Cathedra statements, I believe that the Holy Father’s intepretation will help to serve as a guide.

This thread is highly contentious. Debates and discussions concerning music tend to be. I had lunch with a one of my dearest friends, who happens to be a prelate. We talked about this thread. He is not much older than I am and has had some very bad experiences with the particular instruments and genre in question. He found them jarring and not at all conducive to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He is a very intelligent prelate and he also has a musical background. He is also faithful to the documents of the Church. I told him about the turn this thread has taken. He told me that often, important debates, whether they are done at the level of the laity or at the hierarchy can be contentious. He reminded me that at an early Church Council, one of the first, an actual slugfest broke out between bishops, bishops, mind you. At one point it got so bad that the emperor, Constantine, I believe, had to intervene and lock up the bishops until they settled some crucial doctrinal matters. When the Papal legate finally arrived and stated what the Holy Father had ruled, the debate died with the words “Peter has spoken”.

Often, this debate has turned into a verbal slugfest, contentious enough to rival any matches between John Cena and Randy Orton or D-Generation X against Chris Jericho and the Big Show. But, it is important to note that sometimes, we can be so attached to a particular movement that we think that it overrides what the authoritative documents of the Church have to say. Movements in and of themselves are not bad. From the Confraternty of the Doctrine to Communion and Liberation each movement, inclusive of LifeTeen and the Neocatechumenal Way, has made significant contributions to the Church.

However, when it comes to the Mass, the Holy Sacrifice belongs to no particular ecclesial movement to treat as its own private property. It is the greatest treasure of the Church. Thus, it is crucial that, as Melchior_ pointed out, the rubrics be followed. But, music plays an integral role in the Holy Sacrifice. There are authoritative documents of the Church that speak to the manner in which Sacred Music is to be conducted, including the use of instruments. We need to bear that in mind. It’s not about whether or not a piece feels good; rather, it is about whether or not the genre and the instruments are fit to be used in the Mass. Both Pope St. Pius X and the Venerable Pope John Paul II, stressed the need for the purification of the music used at Mass. Pope St. Pius X had to contend with the influences of opera and the theater that crept into the Mass. The Venerable Pope John Paul II made no bones about the fact that the same problem is happening today. This was confirmed by what the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist stated about the music used at Youth Masses. Pope Benedict XVI, an accomplished musician, added his voice when he stated in Sacramentum Caritatis that certainly we cannot say that one song is as good as another as far as the liturgy is concerned.

We need to take all of this into account.
 
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