SPLIT: Musical instruments at Mass

[donr]

Wow, what a thread…
First let me start off by saying that I am a drummer who has played rock and blues and everything from Punk Rock to Polka music in a lot of states across this blessed country. I also play the electric and acoustic guitars and am learning the violin.
I would never, ever play the drums or my electric guitar in church. When I go to Mass I want to to be as far away from my secular life as possible so that I can worship the Lord in the most reverent way possible.
I think that the majority of people on this thread like the type of music they like and are not willing to budge one way or the other.
I truly come from a different perspective on this. I know (and you all do also) that drums and electric guitar with effects are secular. I have also played Jazz (elevator music) and drums and electric guitar are still secular. I am spoiled I grew up going to church with a old scratchy voiced organist who definitely did not add to the Liturgy (very distracting). I have also been to Rock Concert Masses in Phoenix and beautifully performed electric guitar pieces in a Las Vegas Mass. But the most moving experience I have ever had in church was in a gothic Church in Milwaukee with a great Organist and a Choir that gave me goose bumps on my arms and brought tears to my eyes when they sang the Kyrie. Gregorian Chant sound dull and uninspiring when you listen to a CD in your living room but when your in a natural acoustic setting praying peacefully there is nothing that lifts the soul higher than that.

I encourage all on this thread to seek out the best of all the different styles of music being performed at your local churches and make up your own minds. Be open minded and keep the rules of the church in your mind as well.

Go rock hard in your life and your jobs but when you go to worship the Lord step out of the box you’re in and be at peace. There is a reason that people seek out a vacation spot to get away from the hustle and bustle of the real world. Do the same when you go to Church its amazingly therapeutic and up lifting to the soul.

Amen

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Christianity is not to be seen as an escape from reality.
Some enter Religious Life for that reason.
Narcotics have the same effect.

 

[pnewton]

I’d question that assertion, frankly. The Protestants who incorporate bands into their services are in no way building some new kind of guitar/bass/drum music that is unique to worship. What they are doing is incorporating secular music into their services in the name of marketing to youth. A rock song that uses the name “Jesus” in it is still a rock song.

Little contemporary Christian music is of the Rock genre. In fact, back when I was doing that stuff, none of it was rock. But if you consider CCM secular, then you are right. I do not think, though, that is a common opinion, any more than Protestant churches are considered secular buildings.

 

[pnewton]

All things considered, if one takes a literal meaning of the latest Musicae Sacrae or any other Church documents, in the current vaccuum of a list of forbidden instruments, I see no other choice but to fall back to the default of subsidiarity. Let the priest on behalf of the bishop decide. In the end, they are the authority for this until such a list is made.

 

[chriso]

All things considered, if one takes a literal meaning of the latest Musicae Sacrae or any other Church documents, in the current vaccuum of a list of forbidden instruments, I see no other choice but to fall back to the default of subsidiarity. Let the priest on behalf of the bishop decide. In the end, they are the authority for this until such a list is made.

So very true, and so very faithful…

 

[Sarabande]

All things considered, if one takes a literal meaning of the latest Musicae Sacrae or any other Church documents, in the current vaccuum of a list of forbidden instruments, I see no other choice but to fall back to the default of subsidiarity. Let the priest on behalf of the bishop decide. In the end, they are the authority for this until such a list is made.

I’ve been following along this thread, but hadn’t posted anything because it has been discussed so often. For myself, I try to do my best in following the documents as much as possible. This for my instrument (my voice) is to not choose music that is too “operatic” and thus secular in nature because of how it has to be rendered. Also, I will sing using my classical training, but not in the over-dramatic operatic way.

As most of you know, although I do believe that organ is the preferred instrument for the Church based on what is outlined by the Church in her documents, I am also realistic with the knowledge that not all churches have organs or have people in the parish or the community who are able to play the instrument. And also, sometimes, the best instrument available may be the piano or the guitar or some other instrument. For these instances (and really even when playing the organ or singing/playing a classical piece of music) prudence and common sense is best utilized.

But getting to pnewton’s point, I also understand what he is saying. Although it is helpful to have people involved who understand the Church’s documents, etc., we still have to go along with the pastor or the priest at the parish. Unfortunately, for some priests (and I’ve worked in a enough parishes as a freelance musician) they will allow anything and everything. For other priests, they’ve worked hard to create a balance - some are more successful at it than others.

What I would love and have always said to myself is that life would be so much easier for us musicians if we could have a real, official list of what is not permitted - repertoire and instruments. But I know that will never happen at least in today’s world.

 

[donr]

Christianity is not to be seen as an escape from reality.
Some enter Religious Life for that reason.
Narcotics have the same effect.

My point is that the reason music and/or its instruments are not to be secular is that when you go to church you should be lifted to a higher place. You should never tap your foot while waiting in line for communion. Your ears, eyes, body and soul should be focused on the Lord, not how cool the drummers licks are. This may be confusing for some to grasp but its kind of like listening to a great piece of secular music (any style). You say to yourself, “what a great song”. You don’t really know why its a great song but it is. You didn’t even know what the instruments were in the song because nothing really stood out. Its mixed perfectly between instruments even though the guitarist or whatever took a solo. You didn’t say wow what a great guitarist you just thought that was a great song. The Mass should be the same way. The musicians are not playing / performing for you, they are helping you pray. Anything thing liberal or conservative that helps the whole of the congregation pray is good for the church. This does not mean what makes you feel good its more of a spiritual thing.

My fear is that when the teens grow up, or when they go to churches without a full band and just have the old nun with the scratchy voice their focus will not be on the Mass it will how awful the music was.
If you really wanted to bring teens into the church you would play gansta rap and grunge rock with Christian lyrics. But that is not the point now is it.

I find it funny that when ever I bring that up to a Life-Teen admin they say don’t be ridiculous. My point is that I am not being ridiculous, its just a different perspective.
The sacred music of the church should be utilized on a regular basis. Even though I am not allowed at this time to incorporate any at the Mass I assist at, once day I will convince the pastor that if done correctly will inspire his congregation.

nuff said for now

 

[ibkc]

Little contemporary Christian music is of the Rock genre. In fact, back when I was doing that stuff, none of it was rock.

OK, well, then an adult contemporary song that uses the name of Jesus is still an adult contemporary song, and a pop song that uses the name of Jesus is still a pop song. And so on and so forth.

 

[MrS]

Wow, what a thread…
First let me start off by saying that I am a drummer who has played rock and blues and everything from Punk Rock to Polka music in a lot of states across this blessed country. I also play the electric and acoustic guitars and am learning the violin.
I would never, ever play the drums or my electric guitar in church. **When I go to Mass I want to to be as far away from my secular life as possible so that I can worship the Lord in the most reverent way possible. **
I think that the majority of people on this thread like the type of music they like and are not willing to budge one way or the other.
I truly come from a different perspective on this. I know (and you all do also) that drums and electric guitar with effects are secular. I have also played Jazz (elevator music) and drums and electric guitar are still secular. I am spoiled I grew up going to church with a old scratchy voiced organist who definitely did not add to the Liturgy (very distracting). I have also been to Rock Concert Masses in Phoenix and beautifully performed electric guitar pieces in a Las Vegas Mass. But the most moving experience I have ever had in church was in a gothic Church in Milwaukee with a great Organist and a Choir that gave me goose bumps on my arms and brought tears to my eyes when they sang the Kyrie. Gregorian Chant sound dull and uninspiring when you listen to a CD in your living room but when your in a natural acoustic setting praying peacefully there is nothing that lifts the soul higher than that.

I encourage all on this thread to seek out the best of all the different styles of music being performed at your local churches and make up your own minds. Be open minded and **keep the rules of the church in your mind as well. **

Go rock hard in your life and your jobs but when you go to worship the Lord step out of the box you’re in and be at peace. There is a reason that people seek out a vacation spot to get away from the hustle and bustle of the real world. Do the same when you go to Church its amazingly therapeutic and up lifting to the soul.

Amen

ahhhhh

a voice of reason… because this poster’s voice hits the nail on the head

The Mass is supposed to be all about HIM

We adore
We praise
We glorify…

not the instruments… but HIM

Kind of hard to do when the concern is about what WE prefer in the instruments and music.

.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Musicians tend to notice music - when scoring for film, the musicians want to hear the background music others are not so interested.
I can appreciate how distracting music can be.
I love Scripture, if it is read well it can be an awe inspiring performance, when not, insufferable.
I guess, reading between the lines, whatever is presented to the Lord should be of the best quality.

 

[MrS]

Musicians tend to notice music - when scoring for film, the musicians want to hear the background music others are not so interested.
I can appreciate how distracting music can be.
I love Scripture, if it is read well it can be an awe inspiring performance, when not, insufferable.
I guess, reading between the lines, whatever is presented to the Lord should be of the best quality.

 

[donr]

I think all of this starts in our schools especially our Catholic schools. My wife started this last year as an music aid in our local parish school. She teaches K - 5. Although they introduce history of music in the class there is zero teaching of Chant. Why is this? They touch on Handl, Motzart and Bach but not their Catholic contributions to music. The Mass (once a month) songs are practiced but no training on a sung ordinary and the psalm is always read not sung. If we want participation at Mass with some great historical pieces than we need to train the young so when they get older it will be comfortable to them. Maybe even teach Latin in the schools.

 

[Sarabande]

I think all of this starts in our schools especially our Catholic schools.

Absolutely agree.

My wife started this last year as an music aid in our local parish school. She teaches K - 5. Although they introduce history of music in the class there is zero teaching of Chant. Why is this?

I know that one of the reasons is that the people in charge think that it is too hard for them and that it wouldn’t be something they’d be interested in learning. That was exactly what I got when I taught music at a local Catholic school. Luckily, though, the person in charge at the time gave me the go-ahead to teach it even though he believed I wouldn’t get anywhere with the kids. Well, within two years of teaching there, they learned the simple chants and many were excited to practice it during choir. I explained the meanings, where it came during mass, the proper pronunciation, etc. We had the Latin chants at my wedding and the students who came were singing out loud and clear by heart. What I found key is to be sincerely excited about teaching it and enjoying it. If you don’t really have that, they pick up on the negative energy and react in kind.

They touch on Handl, Motzart and Bach but not their Catholic contributions to music. The Mass (once a month) songs are practiced but no training on a sung ordinary and the psalm is always read not sung. If we want participation at Mass with some great historical pieces than we need to train the young so when they get older it will be comfortable to them. Maybe even teach Latin in the schools.

We had the same problems. I was instructed to teach just the mass hymns to all of the students for mass and that was it, but I was able to get in the chants. The only way I could introduce the Catholic contributions to music was during the actual music class and an afterschool music club which focused just on sacred music through the ages.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Gregorian Chant has health benefits:

• Gregorian Chant is based on breathing. It’s good for relief of asthma.
• Control the breathing one controls the mind. Long deep breaths relieve anxiety
• Gregorian Chant is good aerobic activity.
• At Primary School we started the day singing hymns. Great for waking up and clearing the mind.

 

[ac_claire]

I would never, ever play the drums or my electric guitar in church. When I go to Mass I want to to be as far away from my secular life as possible so that I can worship the Lord in the most reverent way possible.
I think that the majority of people on this thread like the type of music they like and are not willing to budge one way or the other.
I truly come from a different perspective on this. I know (and you all do also) that drums and electric guitar with effects are secular.

Amen, there’s no getting around the truth. These are secular instruments. Maybe they won’t be in 100 years, but they are now. At least we should all be honest with ourselves about this.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The first Christians were jews. When they met together for worship they wanted to sing, so they sang the Hymns and Psalms they already knew; and probably sang them to familiar tunes.
As Christianity spread, each country used its own familiar tunes for the Psalms and Hymns, so the music probably differed widely from place to place.

 

[ac_claire]

We have to use our common sense, so long as it agrees with the way you wish it to be, is more aptly put according to what I’m seeing here. The skewing thats taking place is on the part of those who insist on changing the words so they can twist it to mean what they want it to… and who dont have the humility to say they will wait upon Rome (which has indicated that more clarification is forthcoming) to more specifically define how we are supposed to handle things once they make the newly defined standards official. Now thats arrogant if I ever seen it…

The people who I see skewing things, honestly, are those who are trying to insist that electric guitars and drums are associated with anything in this culture right now except for secular music. Like I’ve said, I 100% can’t believe that that’s intellectually honest. I have too high an opinion of y’alls intellect (collectively) for that.

If there no specific list of preferred instruments, the interpretive choices seem to be either a.) go with what your own opinion on the matter is based on your own likes and dislikes, and justify it with relativistic “who’s to say what secular is?” arguments **OR **b.) look at the documents, which are *Church *documents, in the context of both Church history and other relevant Church documents. Such as the ones which specify over and over how important and fundamental sacred, timeless music is, and how Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place, etc., etc.

btw I didn’t know that Rome has indicated that more clarification is forthcoming. That’s very good to hear. Do you (or does anyone) happen to know the details of when this is going to happen, or where the announcement was made that more info is forthcoming? TIA

 

[benedictgal]

The people who I see skewing things, honestly, are those who are trying to insist that electric guitars and drums are associated with anything in this culture right now except for secular music. Like I’ve said, I 100% can’t believe that that’s intellectually honest. I have too high an opinion of y’alls intellect (collectively) for that.

If there no specific list of preferred instruments, the interpretive choices seem to be either a.) go with what your own opinion on the matter is based on your own likes and dislikes, and justify it with relativistic “who’s to say what secular is?” arguments **OR **b.) look at the documents, which are *Church *documents, in the context of both Church history and other relevant Church documents. Such as the ones which specify over and over how important and fundamental sacred, timeless music is, and how Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place, etc., etc.

btw I didn’t know that Rome has indicated that more clarification is forthcoming. That’s very good to hear. Do you (or does anyone) happen to know the details of when this is going to happen, or where the announcement was made that more info is forthcoming? TIA

It should happen soon. The document was supposed to have come out last year, but, given the change in administration at the CDWDS, that produced the natural delay. However, it is coming.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The Old Testament has many accounts of big celebrations and services being accompanied by music and dancing.
Many instruments are mentioned in the Bible:
Shawms, reed pipes - woodwind instruments
Psalteries, harps - stringed instruments
Tabors, drums - percussion instruments.

Gregorian Chant could be seen as a unifying of what was a disperate form of worship emerging in the Church.

 

[benedictgal]

The Old Testament has many accounts of big celebrations and services being accompanied by music and dancing.
Many instruments are mentioned in the Bible:
Shawms, reed pipes - woodwind instruments
Psalteries, harps - stringed instruments
Tabors, drums - percussion instruments.

Gregorian Chant could be seen as a unifying of what was a disperate form of worship emerging in the Church.

However, these instruments were not necessarily used in the cultic sacrificial temple worship of Ancient Israel. They were used outside of the official worship.