SPLIT: Musical instruments at Mass

[pnewton]

Electric guitars and bass guitars and drums are suitable for secular music only, as their association is more along the lines of a rock concert and not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Let me jump in here, although what I am going to say is a little more exceptional. I have considered switching over to electric guitar. This last year I had a neck injury and my left hand has two fingers with reduced feelings. If I can stay with my accoustic, I am going to do that. If I think I need to go to an electric, I will also add an accoustic emulator. Just like some newer electronic organs can emulate the pipe organ to where all but the best trained ears can not discern the difference, so too have guitar emulators come a long way. This is just one small area in which tehcnology can effect the way documents are applied. That is why guidelines are given over specifics.

 

[LoyalViews]

Oh no, the OCP. The St. Louis (not so) Jesuits, Fr. Stan Fortuna, and ughh…Marty Haugen. . Some churches where I live use Glory & Praisewhich they take and turn into Headaches & Pains with their drums and swaying guitars and a nun in an alb clapping her hands off. I feel your pain! My parish uses a more reverent hymnal. Talk to the priest, try to get him to switch hymnals. If this church has one of those obnoxious Pastoral Administratorswho think they can prance around and tell the poor Priest what to do, don`t worry, the Pope frowns upon Pastoral Administrators.

 

[benedictgal]

They were internal LIFE TEEN documents that stemmed from both 2004 AND 2005, I assure you efforts are being made to enforce the GIRM. Music being as one of the topics. I take pride in the music that is chosen to support the Mass and adhere to the teaching of the Catholic church. I cannot speak for other churches of LIFE TEEN or any other church for that matter. It is a young program and still learning and being guided, but the positive impact that it has leads our youth the a deeper understanding of the Eucharist.

It’s OK if you’re not an advocate of the program, it’s not for everyone.I’ll keep you in my prayers

But, have you read the authoritative documents of the Holy See on Sacred Music or are you just going by what LifeTeen says or what the publishers say? There is a huge difference between the two.

Furthermore, I again go back to the same principle. Electric guitars (bass included) and drum kits are common to secular music. They are not part of the Church’s tradition. There is also a huge difference between religious music and sacred music. Sacred Music is what is fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; religious music is not necessarily designed for the Mass. All Sacred Music is religious, but, not all religious music is Sacred Music.

Why not teach the teenagers genuine Sacred Music? Eventually, they are going to grow out of the hip and trendy and they are going to look for substance. When there is no longer any flash, they will lose interest.

 

[benedictgal]

With respect, you are missing the point. It isn’t only the instrument but the person using the instrument as well. Your opinion that electric guitars and bass guitars aren’t suitable for Mass as a blanket statement doesn’t take into account how the correctly set-up and played instrument can sound. I’ve heard many Masses where guitars are used questionably but others where the guitar music was beautiful. In fact, just two weeks ago I played my guitar (with our group) at Mass where our archbishop presided. He made a point to compliment our group at the end of Mass. I’ve been involved in our music department over 30 years. I went through the years where music wasn’t given the attention it should have. I was part of that and I’m glad we’ve moved away from it. I’ve since learned what’s appropriate and to play the more traditional music (not easy) and some contemporary music that is appropriate. I work very hard at making it as reverent as I can.

However, I think that you are missing my point and the point that the documents are trying to make. Electric guitars and bass guitars, and drum kits have a secular association. You hear them at a Van Halen concert or at a Miley Cyrus concert. But, they do not belong within the context of the Mass.

The problem is that 30-40 years ago, there was a hotbed of experimentation where just about everything, good and bad (mostly bad) crossed the threshold. Pope Paul VI was concerned about this development, especially where it concerned music. That is why he wise observed that not everything is fit to cross the threshold.

 

[LighthouseRon]

However, I think that you are missing my point and the point that the documents are trying to make. Electric guitars and bass guitars, and drum kits have a secular association. You hear them at a Van Halen concert or at a Miley Cyrus concert. But, they do not belong within the context of the Mass.

The problem is that 30-40 years ago, there was a hotbed of experimentation where just about everything, good and bad (mostly bad) crossed the threshold. Pope Paul VI was concerned about this development, especially where it concerned music. That is why he wise observed that not everything is fit to cross the threshold.

Forgive me being blunt but I’m not missing your point, I simply can’t agree with it and let me explain why. I don’t dispute the documents, I agree with them. You say these instruments have a secular association? No argument here, but let’s look closer. Guitars at a Van Halen concert? Okay. Is that different than the organ at our baseball park or a local pizza joint that has a huge pipe organ (We really have one here.)? In those settings the organ sounds pretty secular, doesn’t it? Yet it is held in high esteemin the context of Mass. Once again, no argument from me but let’s look even closer. Is the same kind of organ used in a Catholic church as in the ballpark or the one that wraps around the periphery of the pizza joint? Most likely not. And the person playing the organ in the secular setting is more of a performer than as accompanyment in the Mass setting, right? Same thing applies to guitars. As an example there are electric guitars in the flying “V” style and electric guitars that are accoustics with a pickup such as what I use. Hardly interchangeable and share little more than six strings and a name. I’ve played my share of rock music but I wouldn’t have dreamed of playing that way at Mass, even in my younger days. I wouldn’t dispute that there are some guitars players at Mass in some places that is pretty awful. The point is it’s completely unfair to lump all of them together and simply proclaim them as unfit baised on your opinion. Simply put, the documents don’t support your argument that lumps all electric guitars as inappropriate as a whole. And if the archbishop is impressed I’m willing to bet it’s appropriate.

I urge you to be a little less defensive and reflect on what I’ve said.

 

[iblessem]

Remember when pope john paul ran to the armless guitar player in monterey, ca and kissed his feet. He was playing a beautiful song, not approved by the liturgical police, since i know the song by ron griffen… But it transcended the scribes and pharisees of the times and was pure love.

I love pope john paul ii for listening to melendez, our plain folk hero. We aren’t the elite, we are the simple. The regular people at every mass in the usa.

Maybe, just maybe, there is more to liturgy than laws. Just like the laws that jesus challenged…pope jpii knew that. He lived it and showed us the way by his example… Which made many in the church musical elite angry.

You may hear music during mass you don’t like, but is it wrong? Is ocp reaching with it’s “tenacles” to destroy liturgical music? Omg a guitar at mass!

I have “no” musical authority within the catholic church, but i like what nalr did and what ocp does for the general laity today. Yes, there are bad songs in the books i don’t like, but somebody else likes those songs that i don’t like…really?

I love john michael talbot, the jesuits, the dameans, ron griffen, bob hurd, d. Shutte, j. Foley, s angrisano, t booth, and many others who have worked to praise our lord. Their music drew mw to christ!

I have had 33 years of freedom in a small city to discover music that draws the community into worship. Students from my 1970’s classes come back with their kids and unfortunately grandkids to tell me that those old songs in my catholic school class were a defining moment in their lives. I’d never had known that when i was 24 and just having fun as a new teacher doing liturgy in a catholic school.

I have served many leaders, 3 bishops, 4 catholic school principals, several pastors, and 3 catholic music directors in this small city and none have chastised my efforts to improve liturgical music.

Yet, today, online we judge something we cannot hear based on a set list of sharing mass selections from a hymnal???

I want you to know that i support you in the discovery of your ministry. Read the documents. Study and learn. Bgal is right! I had nothing to go on. You are lucky…but after all the study…guess what?

But eventually you will need to step out in faith. Faith means you will not know what will happen. Experiment with music, write down your prayers and set them to music… Who knows… In a thousand years people will say only your music is liturgically correct. And the discussion will begin again…only the electric guitar is worthy in the mass…really?

What a fun discussion!

May god bless you all…and forgive me if i hurt your feelings…

 

[iblessem]

lighthouseron…you have common sense

 

[bpbasilphx]

\However, the psalm was not addressing what happens in liturgical worship. What psalm 150 notes is not quite what happened in the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel.\

**Since the Psalter was from the beginning a liturgical book, Psalm 150 describes exactly what happened in the cultic sacrificial worship of ancient Israel.

There are comments in the Talmud and other ancient historical documents that corroborate this.

The Temple Mount foundation has even reconstructed silver trumpets and cymbals to be used in the restored Temple.

From my orchestral experience, I would say that there’s no difference between an electric bass, if played well, and a scring bass in a parish ensemble.**

 

[TruthfulReign]

But, have you read the authoritative documents of the Holy See on Sacred Music or are you just going by what LifeTeen says or what the publishers say? There is a huge difference between the two.

Furthermore, I again go back to the same principle. Electric guitars (bass included) and drum kits are common to secular music. They are not part of the Church’s tradition. There is also a huge difference between religious music and sacred music. Sacred Music is what is fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; religious music is not necessarily designed for the Mass. All Sacred Music is religious, but, not all religious music is Sacred Music.

Why not teach the teenagers genuine Sacred Music? Eventually, they are going to grow out of the hip and trendy and they are going to look for substance. When there is no longer any flash, they will lose interest.

LIFETEEN placed the authoritative documents of the Holy See on Sacred Music and the music we play is substantial. I have read documents and I understand them. I like to mix our music with a flavor of both. We sing Tantum Ergo along with We Are One Body. We sing Holy God We Praise Thy Name and Amazing Grace/My Chains are Gone.

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30 (30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.)

I hope that that when the teenagers are sent off to college that they long for the Sacred, they long for deeper understanding, and they strive to learn more about our ancient traditions and Catholic faith. They will grow out of it because the service is aimed to a culture. Which leads me to question what defines a culture? Demographics, beliefs, language, customs, attitudes. Any person who has or has worked with teenagers knows that they have their own culture which ten turns back to:

“63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44”

An argument can still persist within the culture that guitars and drums are used in secular music. However if you go to a traditional African church you will find beautiful harmonies and drums praising God during the liturgy. If you go to Mexico you will hear the sounds of classical guitar. These are all honored methods to help the congregation to participate in a manner that is acceptable to their culture.

So I will end Psalm 150

Hallelujah! Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty.
Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings.
Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Is the same kind of organ used in a Catholic church as in the ballpark or the one that wraps around the periphery of the pizza joint? Most likely not.\

**Most likely YES.

There was a period of decadence in American organ building, and the same pipe organs with similar registrations were put in churches, including Catholic ones, as in theatres, which lately have been moved to pizza joints.

And I’ve seen too many Catholic churches with toy spinet organs, similar to those used in ball parks.**

 

[benedictgal]

I read the LifeTeen website and found these rather interesting passages:

Music
Teens listen to a great deal of music everyday. Although some of it may be objectionable, it is all produced very well and has incredible sound quality. To bring the liturgy to life for teens, youth Masses use musical instruments that teens are used to hearing on a daily basis. The tone must remain prayerful and the music selection should call the congregation into deeper prayer, not distract from it.

and

The Role of Music
Music is essential; it can draw teens into an experience of true worship. Good liturgical music (simple, sing-able, and scriptural) should be chosen. It is important that the music be enriched with instruments, sparked with life, and involve the community, not just the musicians.

The first segment was a little disconcerting. It seems to me that the organizers still do not get what genuine sacred music is. The music kids listen to on the radio does not necessarily translate well into liturgical prayer. The genres of rock music and sacred music are incompatible. Here is what the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy:

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

The second statement is sort of a mixed bag. I think that young people today want something deeper than what is currently offered. They hunger for something that goes beyond themselves and is extraordinary. We do them no favors by offering something banal that is not enriching to the soul.

Furthermore, I did not see the word “sacrifice” mentioned anywhere in the material on the website. Young people need to be made aware that this is not some communal, feel-good gathering, but, it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

Remember when pope john paul ran to the armless guitar player in monterey, ca and kissed his feet. He was playing a beautiful song, not approved by the liturgical police, since i know the song by ron griffen… But it transcended the scribes and pharisees of the times and was pure love.

I love pope john paul ii for listening to melendez, our plain folk hero. We aren’t the elite, we are the simple. The regular people at every mass in the usa.

Maybe, just maybe, there is more to liturgy than laws. Just like the laws that jesus challenged…pope jpii knew that. He lived it and showed us the way by his example… Which made many in the church musical elite angry.

You may hear music during mass you don’t like, but is it wrong? Is ocp reaching with it’s “tenacles” to destroy liturgical music? Omg a guitar at mass!

I have “no” musical authority within the catholic church, but i like what nalr did and what ocp does for the general laity today. Yes, there are bad songs in the books i don’t like, but somebody else likes those songs that i don’t like…really?

I love john michael talbot, the jesuits, the dameans, ron griffen, bob hurd, d. Shutte, j. Foley, s angrisano, t booth, and many others who have worked to praise our lord. Their music drew mw to christ!

I have had 33 years of freedom in a small city to discover music that draws the community into worship. Students from my 1970’s classes come back with their kids and unfortunately grandkids to tell me that those old songs in my catholic school class were a defining moment in their lives. I’d never had known that when i was 24 and just having fun as a new teacher doing liturgy in a catholic school.

I have served many leaders, 3 bishops, 4 catholic school principals, several pastors, and 3 catholic music directors in this small city and none have chastised my efforts to improve liturgical music.

Yet, today, online we judge something we cannot hear based on a set list of sharing mass selections from a hymnal???

I want you to know that i support you in the discovery of your ministry. Read the documents. Study and learn. Bgal is right! I had nothing to go on. You are lucky…but after all the study…guess what?

But eventually you will need to step out in faith. Faith means you will not know what will happen. Experiment with music, write down your prayers and set them to music… Who knows… In a thousand years people will say only your music is liturgically correct. And the discussion will begin again…only the electric guitar is worthy in the mass…really?

What a fun discussion!

May god bless you all…and forgive me if i hurt your feelings…

No, you have not hurt my feelings at all. However, I will say a few things regarding your post. First of all, there is nothing Pharisaical about what I have written. When folks start using the pharisees as a catch-all, it seems to me that they do not understand what the term means. The Pharisess had nothing to do with the cultic sacrificial form of worship that Ancient Israel employed. In fact, they were trying to impose priestly rituals on the people. That is what concerned Jesus. In fact, Jesus defended the rituals of Ancient Israel’s cultic sacrificial worship because His own Father dicated them. God does not contradict Himself.

The concern that I have (and, this was echoed by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist) is that we are bringing in instruments and mediums that are incompatible with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits (mind you, I wrote electric), are not compatible with the Mass because their usage is primarily secular. Whatever is fitting for a Van Halen concert, a Carrie Underwood concert and a Miley Cyrus concert, is not fitting for the Mass.

We also do young people a terrible disservice by not exposing them to genuine, sacred music. The documents call for doing just that. Even Pope Benedict XVI repeatedly makes that call. If you notice, he made some changes to the WYD Mass that he celebrated. Certain instruments were removed from use at that liturgy. He is providing us an example, but, unfortunately, there are many who choose to ignore him.

 

[benedictgal]

Forgive me being blunt but I’m not missing your point, I simply can’t agree with it and let me explain why. I don’t dispute the documents, I agree with them. You say these instruments have a secular association? No argument here, but let’s look closer. Guitars at a Van Halen concert? Okay. Is that different than the organ at our baseball park or a local pizza joint that has a huge pipe organ (We really have one here.)? In those settings the organ sounds pretty secular, doesn’t it? Yet it is held in high esteemin the context of Mass. Once again, no argument from me but let’s look even closer. Is the same kind of organ used in a Catholic church as in the ballpark or the one that wraps around the periphery of the pizza joint? Most likely not. And the person playing the organ in the secular setting is more of a performer than as accompanyment in the Mass setting, right? Same thing applies to guitars. As an example there are electric guitars in the flying “V” style and electric guitars that are accoustics with a pickup such as what I use. Hardly interchangeable and share little more than six strings and a name. I’ve played my share of rock music but I wouldn’t have dreamed of playing that way at Mass, even in my younger days. I wouldn’t dispute that there are some guitars players at Mass in some places that is pretty awful. The point is it’s completely unfair to lump all of them together and simply proclaim them as unfit baised on your opinion. Simply put, the documents don’t support your argument that lumps all electric guitars as inappropriate as a whole. And if the archbishop is impressed I’m willing to bet it’s appropriate.

I urge you to be a little less defensive and reflect on what I’ve said.

No, I still maintain my point. In all of the authoritative documents of the Church, the organ is given pride of place as the musical instrument par excellence for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Church’s documents do not give that same designation for any other instrument. While some can certainly be allowed, the Church specifically states that:

those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

Thus, your argument about the organ really does not hold water. Furthermore, the CDWDS indicated that it is not up to the individual bishop to decide an instrument’s appropriateness. Rather, this decision should be made by a country’s national episcopal conference, using the authoritative documents of the Holy See as the guiding principle.

 

[LighthouseRon]

No, I still maintain my point. In all of the authoritative documents of the Church, the organ is given pride of place as the musical instrument par excellence for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Church’s documents do not give that same designation for any other instrument. While some can certainly be allowed, the Church specifically states that:

Thus, your argument about the organ really does not hold water. Furthermore, the CDWDS indicated that it is not up to the individual bishop to decide an instrument’s appropriateness. Rather, this decision should be made by a country’s national episcopal conference, using the authoritative documents of the Holy See as the guiding principle.

If you took the time to read my posts you will see I haven’t disputed the claim that the organ has a special place within a Mass. As I said I agree with that. What I do dispute is your opinion that all guitars are inappropriate. The quote you list is generic. You are the one that’s deciding that all guitars and players of them fit into that. That’s a major assumtion on your part. That’s your opinion and you have every right to it. But please don’t ask everyone else to abide by your opinion. Why does a bishop not have the right to decide what instrument is appropriate but you do?

 

[benedictgal]

If you took the time to read my posts you will see I haven’t disputed the claim that the organ has a special place within a Mass. As I said I agree with that. What I do dispute is your opinion that all guitars are inappropriate. The quote you list is generic. You are the one that’s deciding that all guitars and players of them fit into that. That’s a major assumtion on your part. That’s your opinion and you have every right to it. But please don’t ask everyone else to abide by your opinion. Why does a bishop not have the right to decide what instrument is appropriate but you do?

Again, I refer you to what the CDWDS said:

As to the provision for n. 393, the Congregation appreciates the evident intent to encourage a new era of responsible creativity among liturgical musicians and composers, and has no difficulty in principle with a provision for the submission of texts of the Gloria, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, the acclamations and responses (perhaps more simply “the musical settings for the various parts of the Order of Mass”) as well as other rites to the Conference’s Secretariat for the Liturgy prior to publication. At the same time, it would ask the Bishops to extend the same provision to the melodies. It is clear that according to the past implicit criteria which it has developed, the Conference would not approve banalizing settings or others that conflict with the liturgical spirit. Moreover, at a juncture when new compositions are to be made, it seems prudent to set in place a filter to exclude inappropriate settings for the future. For the implementation of this norm of the Institutio Generalis, the Congregation is willing to sanction internal legislation at the level of working regulations (not requiring the formal recognitio of the Holy See), whereby the Conference regulates this matter as they do copyright, liturgical edition design and other matters in a case-by-case manner through the Liturgy Secretariat or any other appropriate organ of their devising.

Certain other provisions seem to require further study and specification before being introduced as adapting legislation. What is said here may be understood to apply to nn. 301, 304, 326, 329, 339, 343, and the portion of n. 393 referring to approved musical instruments. **In cases where the Conference of Bishops is to legislate, such legislation should be truly specific, and the law intends precisely that any particular episcopal legislation on these matters be enacted in common by the Bishops of the Conference rather than being left to be determined variously in different dioceses. In the absence of any particular legislation on such a matter, specifications contained in the universal law maintain their full force. **In other words, the Conference of Bishops may name specific materials or instruments as suitable in addition to those universally deemed so, but in the absence of such specification, only the “traditional” materials or those otherwise specified in the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani are to be regarded as approved.

It is not up to one individual bishop to make that determination; rather, it is to be done by the entire national conference. That is what I do not think you understand.

 

[TruthfulReign]

Music
Teens listen to a great deal of music everyday. Although some of it may be objectionable, it is all produced very well and has incredible sound quality. To bring the liturgy to life for teens, youth Masses use musical instruments that teens are used to hearing on a daily basis. The tone must remain prayerful and the music selection should call the congregation into deeper prayer, not distract from it.

This quote above is not stating that we should take the music youth listen to on the radio and translate it into sacred music. It’s speaking of the instrumentation and how because again their *culture * is used to listening it is acceptable…again

**“63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. **

This is what that above statement is referring to. It is NOT telling you to put on a rock concert durring Mass.

The Role of Music
Music is essential; it can draw teens into an experience of true worship. Good liturgical music (simple, sing-able, and scriptural) should be chosen. It is important that the music be enriched with instruments, sparked with life, and involve the community, not just the musicians.

We call this the 3 S’s. Singable so that everyone can participate. Simple in melody and instrumentally so as not to distract from the tradition of the Mass and scriptual, the music needs to be compliant to the teachings of the Catholic Church. The music is not for the musicans, it’s for the congregation as a whole to come into deeper understanding of the Eucharist.

If you search more you will find sacrafice. The teens are taught about the sacrafice and know that the Mass is about sacrafice. If you could only come to my church and see the reverent respect of the Eucharist and the level of understanding and deeper faith they have, you would see.

It is OK that you still take your stance that “the organ is given pride of place as the musical instrument par excellence for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.” It still is. Unfortunly we do not have an organ, (you’re gonna have a heart attack when you hear this next part) but we still use a keyboard to produce the sound of an organ in our parish and a piano at other times.

I know we will never see eye to eye and you think that my parish is superficial, but unfortunatly you are ignorant to the fact that most of our teens have a better understanding a deeper devotion than most adults do. That is something to be proud of and not superficial what so ever.

 

[LighthouseRon]

Again, I refer you to what the CDWDS said:

It is not up to one individual bishop to make that determination; rather, it is to be done by the entire national conference. That is what I do not think you understand.

I’m sure you’re familiar with this section of the GIRM:

While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be used in liturgical services in the diocese of The United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, provided they are truly apt for sacred use or can be rendered apt.

This is specific to this particular situation. As I’ve previously stated, when used properly guitars (and drums of the proper type) can be acceptable for Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m sure you’re familiar with this section of the GIRM:

While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be used in liturgical services in the diocese of The United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, provided they are truly apt for sacred use or can be rendered apt.

This is specific to this particular situation. As I’ve previously stated, when used properly guitars (and drums of the proper type) can be acceptable for Mass.

Percussion does not mean drum kits, similar to those used in a rock concert. The percussion instruments actually are those used for orchestras and not those for secular, rock music. Unfortunately, publishing houses and movements have stretched this to mean things that go beyond the original intent of the documents.

In fact, Sing to the Lord, a document which actually, references this. However, it does not carry the force of law because it never received recognitio from the Holy See. It failed to receive the necessary 2/3 vote to send to Rome for that recognitio.

In fact, there are some flaws in the document, including its recommendations for additional tropes to the Agnus Dei, something that contradicts the authoritative documents of the Holy See.

The document had stronger wording, but, unfortunately, publishing houses and the NPM made a huge lobbying push to water down the document. Thus, what started out as something that was supposed to have brought us in line with Liturgiam Authenticam wound up doing very little. It has only led to more confusion.

Both you and TruthfulReign, however, fail to answer my question and the question of the Synod Fathers as to why they considered music used at Youth Masses particularly problematic. These Synod Fathers are bishops from all over the world. They did not pull this concern out of the clear blue sky. They have experienced these types of liturgies and found them problematic, so much so that they considered them a shadow to the Mass.

Again, I believe that we are not doing the young people any favors by not exposing them to genuine sacred music. We are just merely giving them more of the same feel-good, little substance music that they already listen to in the secular world.

 

[iblessem]

I agree with LighthouseRon and Truthfulreign.

I’m sorry Benedictgal, but your arguments break down by your own quotes from the GIRM and common sense. You may know the law, but you have no clue about the “SPIRIT” of the law. Anytime people are excluded in any task because they don’t have the politically correct instrument or idea than I see a problem with that.

This kind of thinking makes God’s people run away, People did not run away from Jesus. Jesus was inclusive. You are exclusive of any idea that conflicts with your interpretation.

Please balance your great knowledge with the Holy Spirit and then you will see fruit from you labor…but not until then …

God Bless You All

 

[MrS]

I happened to wander on this thread… and offer my opinion … welcomed or not.

I see two distinct “camps” here.

In the one camp are those who insist on trying to justify **their **choice of music, the music their groups find “suitable”, and the instruments that are acceptable to **their **peers or to certain segments of Mass attendees.

In the other camp are those who are trying to explain, or just simply offer, what the Catholic Church has used for centuries… and what the Catholic Church offers in the way of instruction in the current age.

The distinctions are glaring.

The Pope, a few weeks ago, asked that all priests who celebrate the NO insure that a crucifix (with the corpus, not the risen Christ) be placed … ON … the altar, facing the priest.
Instruction should accompany its placement so that the people attending the Mass understand that the priest is offering the Mass to God… and not to the people.

In other words, the Liturgy is most important.

As to those distinctions I just referred to … it seems that the question here is this"

Is the Liturgy of the Mass… all about you… or all about God?

If you, then continue doing what pleases you.

If God, then stop and learn more about the eternal sacrifice of the Mass.

IMHO

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