M
MrS
Guest
Agreed. Thanks for noticing it too.
However, if one has a different mindset… well, it is all about them.
With benedictgal, as seen in so many of her posts on other threads… well, it is all about Him.
.
- Status
However, if one has a different mindset… well, it is all about them.
With benedictgal, as seen in so many of her posts on other threads… well, it is all about Him.
.
M
MrS
Guest
M
moreorless
Guest
Rather than looking for a document that expresses an outright prohibition on one particular musical instrument or style, why not try to cull the ideal from the documents that we have? Whether electric guitars and drums are allowed or not is perhaps not the point.
Does the Church express a preferred ideal? I think it does, and that the ideal is sacred chant, polyphony, and the organ. That does not mean that praise and worship music on guitars is per se proscribed, but just because something is allowed does not make it the best choice, or the clearly expressed preference of the Church.
M
moreorless
Guest
Are you arguing that 18 to 30 year olds are leaving the Church because too many parishes sing Gregorian Chant? Really?
The 18 to 30 year olds who are leaving the Church today are the ones who grew up during the anything-goes, Glory-and-Praise period of liturgical music. Perhaps the realization that we need to have is that the folk-style liturgical music has NOT attracted, or kept, young people in the Faith. Know it by its fruits.
B
benedictgal
Guest
But, what the Protestants do and what the Church does are two entirely different things. Just because they are using electric guitars and drum kits that does not justify the usage of these instruments for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
M
MrS
Guest
Further, many, many young people (under 30) are actually looking for a Catholic Church that is majestic in its beauty… not a gym, or a “modern” structure. The feel a sense of awe, even if they are not sure why. And IMHO they feel a sense of “protestantism” in most of the NO parishes.
I have had the opportunity to attend Mass in a number of parishes in the last two months.
Not one… not one (except my home parish that is) had a cross on the NO altar that was facing the priest.
Since the Pope just recently expressed his desire for this to happen, I guess they just didn’t get the message (no surprise there).
Additionally, the Pope requested the priests to teach the people that the reason for this is to make it clear that the priest is offering the Mass to God… and NOT to the people.
1- I think ALL the “alleluia” crosses should be removed. St Paul even says we must preach Christ Crucified.
2- get rid of the free standing altars… store them with the drum sets, or give them to the protestant faith communities.
3- bring back the holiness and awe of the sanctuary.
if the modernists don’t like that., then the priest and/or bishop is perhaps not doing a great job of teaching… or posters here might not be doing a good job of understanding what is unique… unique … to the Catholic Liturgy.
IMHO
.
P
pnewton
Guest
Of course it is entirely different, but it is not a secular use. That is the defining criteria. What Protestants do does not justify a thing. However, this does show one case, and a common one, that these instruments are not used in a secular setting, as per the Church’s guidelines.
I
iblessem
Guest
Just Remember everyone that checks out these threads, Benedictgal is a poster and has NO AUTHORITY in the Catholic Church. She sews weeds and trys to get good Catholics to question their commitments to Christ. That is the role of the accusser. Read her stuff and you will recognize her or him…always negative and condeming…so beware she will destroy your faith…be strong brothers and sisters
B
benedictgal
Guest
First of all, iblessem, there is no need to resort to insults and baseless namecalling. What you have accused me of doing is uncalled for, uncharitable and rather degrading.
Perhaps you should read the authoritative documents of the Church for yourself. I have formed my opinion reading these documents in tandem with what the Supreme Pontiffs and Vatican authorities have written on the subject.
With all due respsect, the most you were able to cite, in the thread on Lenten settings, were ilicit liturgical abuses that are being promoted by an OCP songwriter who has no right to insert his idiosyncracies into the Mass, especially during the Lent.
The Church has her standards of music. These are not dictated by musical publishers nor does she cull any suggestion from the way that Protestant ecclesial communities conduct their particular worship services. What the Church does in her sacrificial worship is vastly different from what the Protestants do.
Some time back, I was talking to a very dear priest friend of mine who taught me to value and cherish genuine sacred music. We talked about the lack of genuine sacred music in the Mass and about instruments and such. I was a little shocked when he told me that he watched an episode from South Park where Cartman decided that he would form a “Christian band”. What he did was take a rock tune and “Christianize” it, so to speak. My friend told me that, sadly, this is a trend that he has seen in some of the parishes in his area. I saw the episode later on and agreed with him. No matter how hard we try, we cannot mask the fact that a lot of these songs used at Youth Masses are really pop/soft rock songs with religious words. And, there is a huge difference between religious music and sacred music. Religious music may work alright for retreats and gatherings, but, it is not necessarily suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Sacred music, on the other hand, the kind that Church places in high regard, is what is suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Whether you choose to admit this or not, there are some serious problems with what is trying to pass as suitable music for use in the Mass today. Even Pope John Paul II found this to be a serious problem:
Iblessem, you can insult me and dismiss me all you want, but, there is truth to these words. Even Pope John Paul II, who founded WYD, lamented over the fact that today’s music stands in need of purification:
You choose to disregard most, if not all, of what I have said, even though the sources that I have used are authoritative. Often, there is a trend to take stock in what the publishers or the movements say because we think that they are an authority. They are not. It is best to consult the authoritative documents of the Church, in conjunction with what the Popes have written as their statements serve to clarify and augment things.
I
iblessem
Guest
Yes, pray first Benedictgal…and then you reread them. You are destructive to the faith of many. You sew weeds…I will pray for you.
B
benedictgal
Guest
Again, you are making inflammatory statements against my character and what I have written. With all due respect, I challenge you to read the authoritative documents of the Church and the writings of the Supreme Pontiffs. Perhaps you will find that they do not necessarily agree with your particular stance.
It is sad to see that when folks cannot make a point, they resort to insults and degrading statements, instead of reading the authoritative documents and listening to what the Church actually says, as opposed to going by whether or not something feels good.
Any of us who exercise a particular liturgical ministry owe to the people we assist and lead to make it a point of reading what the Church actually says, in tandem with what the Pope and supporting Vatican writings have stated. If we choose to ignore them, then we are doing a disservice to the people we are trying to help and we provide a poor example to the youth under our care.
I
iblessem
Guest
I never degraded you, I prayed for you. Your insults and condemnations of all music you disagree with is very elicit. You use the writing and rules of the church to judge others and insult our youth. You take away from the forgiveness and love that I see everyday in my walk with Christ. Did I forget to Capitalize christ…omg…am I in violation of the rules. That attitude is what you need to correct. My cultural music and the way I communicate with my creator is in union with the Cathilic Church. My pastor says so, my Bishop says so and my local community says so. Bob Hurd, a Doctorate of the Catholic Church, and professor at St. Patrick’s Seminary that teaches liturgy and trains catholic priests says so, so why shoud I take the word of some blogger that condemns all music that he/she doesn’t like. If I kneel when I shouldn’t and stand when it is incorrect, am I lost…No, you who judge… shall be judged… and you who act like all the world should submit to your musical tastes should open your heart and learn that the whole world does not conform with your translation of liturgy. All of my musicians love the traditional music you describe, but we also love the music of St Louis Jesuits, Dameans, Bob Hurd, Tom Boothe, John Michael Talbot and many other contemporary musicians as sacred. Pope John Paul kissed the feet of Melendez, the armless guitar player and he did not judge like you do in your rantings. So you are wrong if only by example…You are very insultive of our culture and that is what I distance myself from. The documents you always use to condemn music you disagree with also never agree with you. Reread them yourself…The documents encourage and inspire new generations to create and make holy the music of our local community in the Sacrifice of the Mass. You always say that we youth groups just do what feels good, but the opposite is true. The youth I see and minister too make a difficult choice to follow Christ. They need support and love and care, not condemnation of their music that praises our Lord…just because you don’t like THAT KIND of music.
I know this is a difficult lesson for you…but I pray you will open your heart Benedictgal and learn what grace has taught me.
May God Bless You Always,
K
KEVIN_WILCOX
Guest
As long as the Church caters for what an individual perceives as a need (in this case type of music) a gathering will happen. God encourages us to listen. The Church has a product and needs to respond to the marketplace - a marketing strategy - if there is going to be a positively productive result. Priests should study business management.
M
MrS
Guest
hahahaha… yeah, there is some truth to what you say if we were marketing a true product.
I never though of Christ that way… a “product”.
And in addition to His charity and kindness and patience… when He spoke and others refused to listen… He did not walk away… THEY DID.
.
M
MrS
Guest
How can you even say:
I never degraded you
when you post like this. It appears that benedictgal has really touched a nerve and perhaps you are concerned that you are reminded that it is you who have no authority, and no reference to Church authority to back up your position of choice.
.
C
chriso
Guest
It does seem your friend benedictal is very rigid when qouthing church documents and authority so far as they apply to what he/she agrees wtih, but when it comes down to it, applies personal assumptions as to what the text means to make the final point. There is a definate shift from the precise qouthing, to the assumption drawn. So, as you point out in your post, clearly also he/she has no authority either.
M
moreorless
Guest
Although I fear this thread may be shut down, I want to say: I have not seen Benedictgal “act like all the world should submit to [her] musical tastes.” Rather, she is encouraging everyone to understand what is the ideal and the clearly expressed preference of the Church.
The Church has a clear preference that the propers should be sung over hymns, for example (GIRM). Someone arguing that a hymn or a song by Bob Hurd or the St. Louis Jesuits is the sacred equal to a chanted introit is the person trying to foist his or her musical tastes on the Church, not the other way around.
M
MrS
Guest
Perhaps the point I wanted to make,missed the mark.
Benedictgal quotes the documents.
Others seem to quote themselves.
Neither poster has the claim to be the authority,
Benedictgal cites the authorities
Others cites preferences and personal likes and dislikes
so
Regardless of whether you agree with what a Church document might “say” to you or her, the fact remains that the real differences in what the Liturgy should include in the line of music comes down to this:
Is it more about Him…or more about you?
.
P
pnewton
Guest
That is not entirely accurate. I have never cited my tastes and dislikes, for example. Others have done the same. Benedictgal backs what she says with Church documents, but she also adds her interpretation of those documents, as must all who read them. It is in the interpretation and application that disagreement can occur, especially when specific instruments are not banned. By “specific” I mean being specified by name, as in “drums, guitars and saxophones are not allowable for Mass.” Nothing like that appears in any document.
What is proper is to encourage all to read the documents out there and weigh objectively their meaning.
A
ac_claire
Guest
I have a hard time trusting the genuineness of anyone who’s going to insist that drums and electric guitars (for instance) don’t fall into the category the document is talking about. And if they don’t, then what instruments on earth could the passage *possibly *be talking about?
- Status