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JReducation
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JReducation;8628667:
The Latin version of the Pauline mass.
That’s not exactly it. There are only six religious rules in the Catholic Church and eight religious orders:
Rules:
Basil
Benedict
Augustine
Carmel
Trinitarian
Franciscans
Religious Orders:
There were no more religious orders founded after the Jesuits. The Church prohibited the founding of orders.
- Benedictine
Cistercians
TrappistsCamaldolese- Augustinian
Canons
Rcollects
Assumptionists
Servites- Basilians
- Carmelites
- Dominicans
- Franciscans
Friars Minor
Poor Clares
Order of Penance
114 Branches- Jesuits
- Carthusians
I don’ t know which religious orders include their founders in the confetior. I know that Franciscans must include Francis in everything: confetior, Canon of the mass, litany of the saints, and the rite of profession. The revised Roman - Franciscan missal does not include him in the confetior since the other saints and angels were also taken out. He was in there when Peter and Paul, etc were in there in the old wording. He is in there in the EF, which is a point of consternation for some Trads. Thank God, not many. The point of consternation is that is says “our Holy Father St. Francis”. Some lay Trads argue that they should not be obliged to say this part, because they don’t consider Francis to be their father. They don’t understand that he’s the father of the house where the mass is being celebrated, so that even if the mass is being celebrated by a Jesuit, if it’s in a Franciscan chapel or church, he must follow the Franciscan calendar, lectionary and missal.
This is true. The Lutheran service of today, looks like the Lutheran people as it should. However the Augustinian mass of today, looks like the Augustinians too, as it should.
This is my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. I do know that religious orders do not take the laity into account when they write their missals and lectionaries or when they create their calendars. A religious order primarily exists for the salvation of its members. The members of saved through their life of prayer and their ministry. Their life of prayer is organized in a manner that reflects the vision of the founder and the mission of the order.Why would a layman want to worship like an Augustinian, if they are so different?
When a religious is allowed to become a priest, he does not cease to be a religious. He retains his identity and the spirituality of his order. When this religious is given a parish, his mission is to bring the laity to Christ, but he’s going to do it using the spirituality of his order. If you’re in a Franciscan parish, you will pray the mass as do Franciscans following our missal, lectionary, calendar, rubrics and customs. When you’r e in an Augustinian parish, you will do the same there. You will follow their missal, calendar, rubrics, customs and lectionary and so forth for each order.
For example, if you were in an Augustinian parish, the feast of St. Augustine and St. Monica would require a solemn high mass in the EF or a solemnity in the OF. In either case, they’re going to knock your socks off, while the Catholic parishes around them are having a low mass in the EF and a memorial in the OF. All ministries and all work ceases on the solemnities of Monica and Augustine. Don’t expect to be able to visit the Blessed Sacrament that day. The parish will be closed, unless the Blessed Sacrament chapel has access from the outside. In other words, you’re not just worshipping like the Augustinians, you are immersed in Augustinian culture. The same would happen if you were in a Franciscan parish or one of the other orders. The layman becomes part of the family. They don’t adapt to you, you adapt to them.
They can’t adapt to the laity, because they have a primary duty to preserve their order and to preserve the unity of their order. They must all be doing the same thing around the world. If they don’t preserve the unity of their order, they run the risk of extinction.
Does it make sense why a layman would want to worship like an Augustinian? It’s to preserve the Augustinian tradition and culture, which is necessary to the life of the Church. Whether you’re a Franciscan or a layman, the Augustinian presence, is necessary to your spiritual life and their way of worshiping enriches the Church, therefore it enriches you and me.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
I
iloveangels
Guest
Is the Franciscan missal now updated to coincide with this new 3rd Edition of the Roman Missal? In other words, are the Franciscans saying “And with your spirit” now too?
J
JReducation
Guest
All of the “hybrid missals” had to be republished.
“Hybrid missal” is my term. They are really blended missals. These are missals that were created for particular forms. Forms are not the same as rites. Dominicans, Carthusians and Carmelites have their own rites. They don’t have to use the Roman Missal.
The other orders have our own forms. We have to start with the Roman missal, to it, we add our holy days, our customs, and our rubrics… We go over to the Gospel Book and to the Lectionary and we do the same. We add the readings for our holy days. From there, we go over to the breviary and we insert our holy days, rubrics and customs.
It all has to be done in a way that preserves the integrity of the Roman Missal and the integrity of the spirituality of each religious order.
Just to give you an example. Oct 3 & 4, are the Solemnity of St. Francis for us. On the 3rd we commemorate the Passing of St. Francis. That liturgy is almost identical to the liturgy of Good Friday. It’s not a mass, just like that of Good Friday. On the 4th we celebrate the solemnity.
In the Roman Missal, St. Francis is a memorial. It has a special prayer, but the readings and the rest remain the same. In the Roman-Franciscan Missal, it’s a solemnity in the OF and a First Class Feast in the EF. It has it’s own collects, readings, propers, etc.
For example, in the OF, you would include three reading, the Gloria, the Creed and a Sequence, just as if it were Easter Sunday, with all of the bells and whistles. You have to make sure that the Gloria, Creed and all the responses are those of the Roman Missal, while you also have to make sure that all of the propers, collects, readings and the sequence is what is approved by the Franciscan Liturgical Commission. Then you send the whole thing back to the CDW for their final approval.
This has to be done by each order for all of their holy days. All of these missals had to be ready to go this past Sunday. Whether the religious were in a parish or in their own houses, they had to follow along.
This was a lot of work.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
Speaking of Franciscans, did anyone see the Sunday mass on EWTN? The Friar was so attentive to the changes in the wording that he lost his place in the missal. Our missal has many more pages and things are in a different place, because we have all of those Franciscan holy days. When you get used to one missal and they throw another in front of you, you have to learn where everything is. At one point, he had to turn from one part of the missal to another and you suddenly saw him flipping through it as one does through the Yellow Pages and the look on his face was priceless. He didn’t say a word, but I thought he was going to throw it at the cameraman. The new Roman-Franciscan Missal doesn’t have tabs. The old one had tabs. You started off and you flipped each tab to get you to the right Eucharistic prayer, the right collect, etc. This one has ribbons, but if you forget what color ribbon is in what place, you’re lost.
What were they thinking when they published a book that size without tabs?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
What were they thinking when they published a book that size without tabs?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
I
iloveangels
Guest
Understand. I’m a not very good SFO. I know that the liturgy of the hours is set up the same way, with Franciscan feast days instead of some of the others, etc. But it’s based on the same liturgy of the hours that the rest of the church uses, and when it’s updated, the Franciscan books will be too, necessarily.All of the “hybrid missals” had to be republished.
“Hybrid missal” is my term. They are really blended missals. These are missals that were created for particular forms. Forms are not the same as rites. Dominicans, Carthusians and Carmelites have their own rites. They don’t have to use the Roman Missal.
The other orders have our own forms. We have to start with the Roman missal, to it, we add our holy days, our customs, and our rubrics… We go over to the Gospel Book and to the Lectionary and we do the same. We add the readings for our holy days. From there, we go over to the breviary and we insert our holy days, rubrics and customs.
It all has to be done in a way that preserves the integrity of the Roman Missal and the integrity of the spirituality of each religious order.
Just to give you an example. Oct 3 & 4, are the Solemnity of St. Francis for us. On the 3rd we commemorate the Passing of St. Francis. That liturgy is almost identical to the liturgy of Good Friday. It’s not a mass, just like that of Good Friday. On the 4th we celebrate the solemnity.
In the Roman Missal, St. Francis is a memorial. It has a special prayer, but the readings and the rest remain the same. In the Roman-Franciscan Missal, it’s a solemnity in the OF and a First Class Feast in the EF. It has it’s own collects, readings, propers, etc.
For example, in the OF, you would include three reading, the Gloria, the Creed and a Sequence, just as if it were Easter Sunday, with all of the bells and whistles. You have to make sure that the Gloria, Creed and all the responses are those of the Roman Missal, while you also have to make sure that all of the propers, collects, readings and the sequence is what is approved by the Franciscan Liturgical Commission. Then you send the whole thing back to the CDW for their final approval.
This has to be done by each order for all of their holy days. All of these missals had to be ready to go this past Sunday. Whether the religious were in a parish or in their own houses, they had to follow along.
This was a lot of work.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Thanks for the answer…
Pax et Bonum.
PS, sounds like a lot of work. I’ll bet they were going like 90 to get it all done on the fairly tight timeframe for the 3rd Roman Missal.
PPS: Are you a third order regular?
I
iloveangels
Guest
Understand. I’m a not very good SFO. I know that the liturgy of the hours is set up the same way, with Franciscan feast days instead of some of the others, etc. But it’s based on the same liturgy of the hours that the rest of the church uses, and when it’s updated, the Franciscan books will be too, necessarily.
Thanks for the answer…
Pax et Bonum.
PS, sounds like a lot of work. I’ll bet they were going like 90 to get it all done on the fairly tight timeframe for the 3rd Roman Missal.
PPS: Are you a third order regular? Third order secular in a congregation or?
J
JReducation
Guest
We’re an independent congregation like the CFR, MFVA, FBE, FBP, LBSF and BC. We all follow the Rule of the Friars Minor, with our own constitutions.
The breviaries for the orders, with the exception of the Benedictines, are built the same way. Imagine the Roman Breviary as the skeleton. You take out whatever is in the way of a Franciscan custom or holy day and replace it. The same is done by the other orders.
The Bendictines, and all of the orders that follow the Benedictine Rule are in a very unique position. They are not bound by the rubrics of the Roman Church. They have an ancient tradition where the Abbot actually creates their missal and breviary. They have to preserve the basic, Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist, including the canon and the words on institutions. Beyond that, the abbot is the voice of Christ. He decides how the Divine Office and the mass are prayed for his abbey.
They usually group themselves as congregations. That simply means that several abbeys work together to create a common missal, lectionary and breviary. You may have as many as 20 or 25 Benedictine breviaries and missals, because every congregation is autonomous. I always have to chuckle when people say that they want to pray the traditional monastic office. The reason that I chuckle is because the Benedictines laugh at the laity when they hear this. I remember one Benedictine saying on EWTN, “When someone finds out which is the traditional monastic diurnal, please let us know.” He was trying to impress upon the audience that the diurnal or breviary is different from one place to another and so is their missal.
What is impressive about them is how the celebrate liturgy, not that they follow any single tradition. They follow the tradition for their congregation, unlike Franciscans who are over 114 congregations but all follow the same missal, lectionary and breviary, including the Secular Order. The five Ministers General decide for everyone else.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I
iloveangels
Guest
Interesting. Thanks for the reply.We’re an independent congregation like the CFR, MFVA, FBE, FBP, LBSF and BC. We all follow the Rule of the Friars Minor, with our own constitutions.
The breviaries for the orders, with the exception of the Benedictines, are built the same way. Imagine the Roman Breviary as the skeleton. You take out whatever is in the way of a Franciscan custom or holy day and replace it. The same is done by the other orders.
The Bendictines, and all of the orders that follow the Benedictine Rule are in a very unique position. They are not bound by the rubrics of the Roman Church. They have an ancient tradition where the Abbot actually creates their missal and breviary. They have to preserve the basic, Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist, including the canon and the words on institutions. Beyond that, the abbot is the voice of Christ. He decides how the Divine Office and the mass are prayed for his abbey.
They usually group themselves as congregations. That simply means that several abbeys work together to create a common missal, lectionary and breviary. You may have as many as 20 or 25 Benedictine breviaries and missals, because every congregation is autonomous. I always have to chuckle when people say that they want to pray the traditional monastic office. The reason that I chuckle is because the Benedictines laugh at the laity when they hear this. I remember one Benedictine saying on EWTN, “When someone finds out which is the traditional monastic diurnal, please let us know.” He was trying to impress upon the audience that the diurnal or breviary is different from one place to another and so is their missal.
What is impressive about them is how the celebrate liturgy, not that they follow any single tradition. They follow the tradition for their congregation, unlike Franciscans who are over 114 congregations but all follow the same missal, lectionary and breviary, including the Secular Order. The five Ministers General decide for everyone else.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I’m an SFO but not a very good one. The political involvement of the SFO bothers me a lot. I’m not much of a progressive nor am I a “radtrad,” but you can probably tell that by my posts in here.
J
JReducation
Guest
I’m not sure what that all means, but you have the same moral obligation to your order as I do to mine, by virtue of your profession. When we make profession in an order, we don’t get to pick and choose what we’re going to comply with and what we’re going to blow off. We profess to live according to the rule and constitutions and to obey the legitimate authority within the community.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
I
iloveangels
Guest
I know, and I’m in the process of working through it.
I think, after working with it for quite some time here, that it’s 2 things:
- part of it is me. I have to make a better commitment to follow through one way or the other, regardless of the fact that I was professed at the beginning of the consolidation of the order under the new rule.
- part of it is the situation. The SFO has been going through a lot of change. We were made autonomous as an order, meaning that we are no longer attached to the friars in the way we were before, which means that the order has a lot of growing up to do. It’s really a very good thing although it looks pretty weird right now and has looked even weirder as recently as a couple of years ago. I really should be in there helping with that, instead of holding my nose over the liberal-conservative-type politics they’ve gotten involved in. We need to dig deeper than that. The Franciscan third order is, after all, more than 800 years old. And it does pre-date American politics.
[The SFO is largely baby-boomers. And even though I am one, Arrrrrgh.]
I
iloveangels
Guest
Actually, more correctly, the SFO in the USA is mostly baby boomers. Not so in some developing countries!
G
GwenL
Guest
Franciscan liturgy question that I think Br JR can probably answer…
Today, as you know, was the feast of the Saints of the Seraphic Order. We had the readings from the Franciscan lectionary.
Our Romano-Franciscan sacramentary is NOT updated–it’s the same old version (“and also with you”). Not sure if we have the new one yet, but the rector has been on vacation for three weeks and the PV thought it might be in his room somewhere
In any event, we had to use two missals today. We used the Romano-Franciscan for the propers and preface for the feast, and the 3rd edition (new translation) for everything else. It was a bit of a scramble for the server and the priest.
It’s a good illustration of why the Franciscans put everything in one modified missal. Br JR, when was the update published?
Today, as you know, was the feast of the Saints of the Seraphic Order. We had the readings from the Franciscan lectionary.
Our Romano-Franciscan sacramentary is NOT updated–it’s the same old version (“and also with you”). Not sure if we have the new one yet, but the rector has been on vacation for three weeks and the PV thought it might be in his room somewhere
In any event, we had to use two missals today. We used the Romano-Franciscan for the propers and preface for the feast, and the 3rd edition (new translation) for everything else. It was a bit of a scramble for the server and the priest.
It’s a good illustration of why the Franciscans put everything in one modified missal. Br JR, when was the update published?
M
Marauder
Guest
Not all baby boomers. I am not a baby boomer, probably would be considered generation-x or pre-generation-x. But me and one other guy are the youngest in my fraternity by a long shot.
Also like JR, not real sure what you mean by this. From what I have seen SFO itself isn’t very politically involved other then its connection with FAN. Individual members of SFO have political involvement, but not the entire organization.
Brother JR may be better at explaining this then I am but to my knowledge SFO has always been autonomous. Several within all the Orders at times may have viewed it differently but the recent changes just clarified that SFO is a separate and distinct Order, not a subservient Order to the other Franciscan Orders. SFO is just as Franciscan as any of the Orders, all just have a different “flavor” of Franciscan spirituality.
Pax et bonum,
Jim, SFO
I
iloveangels
Guest
Hi Jim,
I think officially the SFO has been autonomous but before the consolidation of all the fraternities into regions in the last 15 years or so, many of them were directed by religious and they were not linked together really well. Now there is a much higher profile on the autonomy of the SFO. It was apparently a topic at the recent general chapter as some areas still have this old setup in place. [You said it perfectly in your last paragraph. Yes.]
Yes, I guess I’m reacting to FAN and JPIC, which replaced the older structures and worry me. You know, St. Francis was not a monk, nor was he famous for a “worked-out” contemplative method, like St. John of the Cross or anything like that. But the motive for absolutely everything he did was scripture and prayer. If we run off half-cocked and act like a bunch of progressive political activists, we are not behaving like St. Francis. In fact, we are acting like the exact opposite.
The church, remember, is neither conservative nor liberal, in the American sense, and even in the world political sense. It transcends all of that. It’s possible to find threads in scripture that sound more or less like one or the other political groups at times, but those threads in scripture don’t endorse those political views because the motivation is different than that of a political party (power). And if you follow the thread in scripture conscientiously, you’ll find that it no sooner than it brings up the point of agreement, then it brings up a problem for the political view. This is because political parties and all the like are only means to ends.
Franciscans have to keep it clear which is the charism and which is the apostolate. There is tons of confusion on this. I know that this has been a huge issue in the history of the Franciscan order, and has taken many forms, and it hasn’t gone away. Far from it.
Probably we should transfer these posts to the third order part of this forum, but I have no idea how to do that! HELP.
M
Marauder
Guest
I don’t have the same concerns you do about FAN or JPIC. They aren’t directly SFO. FAN is a group of Franciscans from several branches. I think both organizations are for those members of SFO and other Franciscan Orders that are active in the political arena to voice their concerns. You will have Franciscans, both individually or as an Order that are interested in particular outreaches. This allows those that are interested in those outreaches to have an outlet. Some Franciscans feel called to assist with the poor directly, some feel called to help the unborn directly, some feel called to help those with AIDS and some feel called to fighting for those things in a political arena. All are valid outreaches as long as they don’t forget the ideals of St. Francis and don’t let the outreach overpower the prayer life.
All you have to do is open a new thread in whatever forum or group you want. If you want you can always open up a thread in the “Franciscan Spirituality” social group.
I
iloveangels
Guest
Thanks Marauder,
I got lost in all this because ecology and politics (and later JPIC & FAN) etc was really all that they were talking about at one point. And because I had a conversation with someone fairly high up in the order about prayer being the motivation for everything Francis did, and they didn’t think so. For St. Francis, the relationship with God, and his attempt at living the Gospels was everything; from it flowed his apostolates. It is true that St. Francis thought that the apostolates flowed from the relationship in almost a seamless manner, but it’s still that they did. For him, it’s that the relationship with God was so deeply ingrained and he worked at it so hard that it was a given, and then the apostolates came. “God gave me brothers,” etc. I think we run the risk of forgetting that. I’m thinking about becoming active again.
PS. One of the other things I’m still trying to get my head around is how high profile Call to Action members can be keynote speakers at SFO quinquennials. It has happened in the past. One of the marks of the Franciscan charism is complete fidelity to the Holy See. It was one of St. Francis’ personal characteristics.
M
Marauder
Guest
This is where a good spiritual director is needed to keep things in balance. You will have many people that think their personal pet projects are the most important thing. They will usually make statements like you are not a good Franciscan/Catholic/Christian if you don’t [fill in the blank]. I have heard well meaning people say that in reference to praying at abortion clinics, attending Catholic prayer vigils, attending political action nights at state capitals, donate time/money to Haiti, etc. This is trying to project ones own charisms, talents, passions, etc. on other people. God gives everyone their own talents and it is up to them to determine their best use. Not using those talents is the problem. Different people are called to different things. Different Franciscans are called to different aspects of Franciscan Spirituality. IMHO that is one of the best things about Franciscan spirituality is that it is so broad. You can be embrace the contemplative life of the Poor Clares, the prayer life of St. Francis, the outreaches of St. Francis to the leapers and the poor and any combination of the above or to follow your own way while still following the ideals of St. Francis. Do some people corrupt the ideals of St. Francis? Yes it will happen even from the best of intention-ed people. The key is what are you doing with your talents and your prayer life in conjunction with your Franciscan community.
Should things like this happen, probably not. But remember that even people that may disagree with you even in Protestant religions may have pieces of the truth. One of the best speakers at one of my fraternity meetings was a bishop of the Episcopal church. Yes he wasn’t Catholic but his experiences both in relationship to Franciscans in the Catholic church leading the life of a “Franciscan” as an Episcopal bishop were very interesting. Remember that you can do more reform from within, then just standing outside the organization and complaining. Just remember to do it humbly as Francis would, never assuming you know all.
I
iloveangels
Guest
Thank you, Marauder, I’m learning this. The charism of the Franciscan order is indeed very broad. It’s not that I want to tell anyone what to do, but I need to find out what I am called to do. And I am thinking of returning.
J
Jean_Anthony
Guest
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