SPLIT: Not happy with homily about modern music

[TrueLight]

RE: my cut off from the world comment. Back in the day when Martin Luther King was assassinated, we went to Mass aching with loss and maybe more importantly, a certain loss of hope. The event was not even acknowledged, rather we had a homily on the different choirs of angels. I might have been interested in that at another time; not then.

It is the function of the laity to evangelize. I love the St. Francis quote:: “preach the gospel, if necessary, use words”. Our evangelization is being Christ to others - in our family, in our community and in the world. I think Christ expects us to encourage our children, hug a friend, take clothing to the homeless and needy, provide food, or contribute to a collection to drill wells in Africa. That is what I mean by not being cut off from the world. I lived pre-Vatican two. We contributed to Peters Pence and never knew what happened or who was helped.

We sang some Gregorian Chant and Holy God we Praise Thy Name every Sunday, and had congregations that (as previously stated) prayed the Rosary during Mass .They NEVER sang - except maybe the first verse of Holy God until the priest exited the altar to the side. In modern churches the choir is situated at the side of the Altar, signifying its position as a ministry. They assist the congretation to praise God in song. I like that much better than being parked up in a choir loft.

Don’t get me wrong, We have a history of some excepetional liturgical music that shoud be preserved. performed and used in liturgy. I am just saying that our music needs to fit our congregationsl spiritual needs. For many of us, that is more contemporary music. I am a little startled by rock music at Mass, but that fits for some. I could appreciate choirs singing chant, but probably could not participate which would diminish my experience of glorifying God during the Mass if it was done daily or weekly.

We need to recognize we are a diverse church and not condemn parts of us because we are different in our tastes. I can appreciate your need even if I do not want to join it.

Thanks for clarifying. I wholeheartedly agree we should not be cut off from the world as you described. But that doesn’t have to do with whether the choir is in the back or off to the side. I personally feel the choir should be in the back, because when the choir sings, we need to focus on prayer and worship, not be distracted by watching the choir.

We can have traditional music and still minister to the poor and needy. We can have a combination of Gregorian Chant and “Here I am Lord”.

 

[aicirt]

The hymnals provided in my church have about 800 hymns. I know that these cannot be Catholic in origin because I never heard them sung prior to Vatican II. Last Sunday we sang a hymn supposedly by Martin Luther.Another time we sang LORD of the DANCE, a Shaker hymn and Shakers were a cult. Another time the pianist played SOMEWHERE IN TIME before Mass. This one is from the Christorpher Reese movie by the same name.

Although I object to the above being a part of the church service, I don’t mind AMAZING GRACE because the story behind it is very moving and inspirational. I was surprised when the choir director did not know the story behind the hymn.

Personally like Battle Hymn of the Republic. The only time I heard that sung in a Catholic Church was for Bobby Kennedy’s funeral. Always liked THE OUR FATHER which was never heard in a Catholic Church because the ending was Protestant. Now we sing their version but with different musical emphasis on the ending. So, for me, the whole point is lost.

I cannot remember the last time we sang any of the hymns which were considered standard Catholic ones.

What is the thinking behind the selection of hymns? Are we trying to be ecunemical? Is it to make Protestants feel more at home at our Mass? Doesn’t make me feel more at home. How many Protestants are actually stopping in on Sunday because we’re playing their songs?

I like the choir in a loft. I find it and other ministries at or on the altar along with speakers etc. very distracting. I liked the “old” way where the emphasis is Christ in the tabernacle. Today, He’s not there. Everyone else is up there and He’s off to the side waiting.

 

[PiousTemplar]

Thanks for clarifying. I wholeheartedly agree we should not be cut off from the world as you described. But that doesn’t have to do with whether the choir is in the back or off to the side. I personally feel the choir should be in the back, because when the choir sings, we need to focus on prayer and worship, not be distracted by watching the choir.

We can have traditional music and still minister to the poor and needy. We can have a combination of Gregorian Chant and “Here I am Lord”.

My Priest says that when he got to our current parish several years ago, he was shocked at the music being played. He particularily mentioned ‘Here I am Lord’ as being one of the worst. He said the music needed reform immediately, and it’s been improving ever since!

 

[Jordan719]

WOW! This priest sounds like one I would love to see as pastor of my parish!

Amen to that. I wish my priest was a “fire and brimstone” pastor.

 

[TrueLight]

My Priest says that when he got to our current parish several years ago, he was shocked at the music being played. He particularily mentioned ‘Here I am Lord’ as being one of the worst. He said the music needed reform immediately, and it’s been improving ever since!

Ha ha. That song is beautiful.

It speaks of Evangelization, which I am a big proponent of. At least that is how I interpret it.

I, the Lord of sea and sky
I have heard my people cry
All who dwell in dark and sin
My hand will save.

I who made the stars and night
I will make the darkness bright
Who will bear my light to them
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart.

I the Lord of snow and rain
I have borne my people’s pain
I have wept for love of them
They turn away.

I will break their hearts of stone
Fill their hearts with love alone
I will speak my word to them
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart.

 

[PiousTemplar]

Ha ha. That song is beautiful.

It speaks of Evangelization, which I am a big proponent of. At least that is how I interpret it.

I, the Lord of sea and sky
I have heard my people cry
All who dwell in dark and sin
My hand will save.

I who made the stars and night
I will make the darkness bright
Who will bear my light to them
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart.

I the Lord of snow and rain
I have borne my people’s pain
I have wept for love of them
They turn away.

I will break their hearts of stone
Fill their hearts with love alone
I will speak my word to them
Whom shall I send?

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart.

I personally only like the traditional stuff.

 

[mcmitton]

… The music to which he is speaking has been written for holy worship and aslo vetted. When we speak of “modern” or “contemporary” music we need to keep in mind the the music seen as sacred was once modern when it was first introduced…

True, the music was written for holy worship, but vetted? Vetted by whom? OCP? GIA? USCCB?

Some of the lyrics strike me as theologically “off”, a good sound bite, but trite. Some are “spot on” regarding the scripture they reference.

Some melodies, rhythms, and tempi themselves are sometimes far from “noble”, and remind me of singing around a campfire, rather than kneeling at our Lord’s feet, at His table, or standing singing in joyous praise.

Our volunteer musicians select hymns from OCP, as that is our only source of material. We cannot afford “licensing” in order to photocopy better music.

But, we do what we can. Our congregation loves to sing. And that is wonderful. All we have to do is to select better music!

 

[Cat]

I usually never advocate “writing the bishop” because I think that church conflicts should be worked out between layperson and priest directly, not through “tattling” or “reporting” or “writing up a grievance or QCR.”

But in this case, the priest is preaching a personal gospel, and I believe he needs to be censured.

The bishops in the United States have approved music by Haugen, Haas, and other contemporary composers–that’s why these hymns are still in the parish hymnals. For a priest to teach that these composers and their music lead to eternal damnation is contrary to the bishops’ teachings.

There is no “list of forbidden hymns or composers.” Individual bishops in different dioceses have a list of certain hymns and composers that are forbidden in Masses in their parishes (e.g., in our diocese, Wagner’s Wedding March is not allowed because it is part of an opera, which is theater).

Certainly priests have the right to allow or disallow hymns in their parishes. The proper thing for this priest to do if he finds certain contemporary pieces objectionable is to instruct the music minister and/or musicians that these hymns are no longer to be used in the Masses. There doesn’t have to be a public denouncement made to people who are already poorly catechized and may become confused or even angry.

If the pastor has a written column in his parish bulletin, perhaps he can write up a justification, using reasonable and non-inflammatory language, on why he is including more traditional hymns and/or music styles in place of contemporary hymns. He should make it a positive change, not a negative “fire and brimstone” denouncement.

To imply that contemporary hymns and specific composers lead to damnation is to insult all the other priests and bishops who DO make use of these contemporary composers and their pieces in their Masses.

So I would first go to the priest and ask him to clarify what he said in the homily to make CERTAIN that I am not misunderstanding his intent.

Sometime what we say is different than what we intended to say. Perhaps the priest did not intend to say or imply that music can lead to eternal damnation, but perhaps he was distracted by something or someone and his words came out wrong.

Make CERTAIN that what you heard was what he intended you to hear. Perhaps the misunderstanding is your fault; perhaps it was YOU who were distracted. Don’t make a fuss over a fiction.

If he really was preaching what you heard, then tell him that you will be writing your bishop and tell him why.

And then write your bishop.

Right now, the priest is teaching a personal gospel about music, and many Catholics who agree with him about music are probably rejoicing. But he is still in the wrong to teach something that opposes what our bishops teach.

And if he is not stopped, what will this priest decide to teach next?

It is possible that he has other beliefs that are contrary to the bishops’ teachings, and if no one opposes him about the music issues, he may move on to these other beliefs and eventually, he will be teaching all-out heresy.

This must be stopped now. If this priest is allowed to continue to teach his own personal gospel, he will lead other Christians astray.

 

[hudson]

Sounds like an excellent Priest. Hopefully one day he will be a Bishop. In the meantime, I would write the Bishop and tell him how good of a job this Priest is doing.

 

[AnneTeresa]

I would be sad too if my priest did this. Let’s focus on what REALLY matters and it’s not the music. I too fear for the catholic church as it gets more and more split over things like this.

We have some more contemporary music at the mass I attend and everyone sings.

I don’t agree with “fire and brimstone” in the mass.

 

[PatriceA]

I usually never advocate “writing the bishop” because I think that church conflicts should be worked out between layperson and priest directly, not through “tattling” or “reporting” or “writing up a grievance or QCR.”

But in this case, the priest is preaching a personal gospel, and I believe he needs to be censured.

The bishops in the United States have approved music by Haugen, Haas, and other contemporary composers–that’s why these hymns are still in the parish hymnals. For a priest to teach that these composers and their music lead to eternal damnation is contrary to the bishops’ teachings.

There is no “list of forbidden hymns or composers.” Individual bishops in different dioceses have a list of certain hymns and composers that are forbidden in Masses in their parishes (e.g., in our diocese, Wagner’s Wedding March is not allowed because it is part of an opera, which is theater).

Certainly priests have the right to allow or disallow hymns in their parishes. The proper thing for this priest to do if he finds certain contemporary pieces objectionable is to instruct the music minister and/or musicians that these hymns are no longer to be used in the Masses. There doesn’t have to be a public denouncement made to people who are already poorly catechized and may become confused or even angry.

If the pastor has a written column in his parish bulletin, perhaps he can write up a justification, using reasonable and non-inflammatory language, on why he is including more traditional hymns and/or music styles in place of contemporary hymns. He should make it a positive change, not a negative “fire and brimstone” denouncement.

To imply that contemporary hymns and specific composers lead to damnation is to insult all the other priests and bishops who DO make use of these contemporary composers and their pieces in their Masses.

So I would first go to the priest and ask him to clarify what he said in the homily to make CERTAIN that I am not misunderstanding his intent.

Sometime what we say is different than what we intended to say. Perhaps the priest did not intend to say or imply that music can lead to eternal damnation, but perhaps he was distracted by something or someone and his words came out wrong.

Make CERTAIN that what you heard was what he intended you to hear. Perhaps the misunderstanding is your fault; perhaps it was YOU who were distracted. Don’t make a fuss over a fiction.

If he really was preaching what you heard, then tell him that you will be writing your bishop and tell him why.

And then write your bishop.

Right now, the priest is teaching a personal gospel about music, and many Catholics who agree with him about music are probably rejoicing. But he is still in the wrong to teach something that opposes what our bishops teach.

And if he is not stopped, what will this priest decide to teach next?

It is possible that he has other beliefs that are contrary to the bishops’ teachings, and if no one opposes him about the music issues, he may move on to these other beliefs and eventually, he will be teaching all-out heresy.

This must be stopped now. If this priest is allowed to continue to teach his own personal gospel, he will lead other Christians astray.

to Cat.

 

[I_Thirst]

WOW! This priest sounds like one I would love to see as pastor of my parish!

Amen! Or even in parishes around me where I could become a parishoner.

Due to the heavy rotation of Haugen & Hass in my parish, I prefer Daily Mass where there is no music. On Sundays, I prefer an Eastern Catholic Church about twenty minutes away.

 

[aicirt]

Are the objections to Haugen’s music based on what has been described as “insipid”, or because he is a Lutheran who promotes women being made priests etc.?

And what are the objections to Hass’ music?

 

[I_Thirst]

Are the objections to Haugen’s music based on what has been described as “insipid”,

Yes.

or because he is a Lutheran who promotes women being made priests etc.?

No.

And what are the objections to Hass’ music?

It’s insipid. YMMV.

 

[fall_fox]

TrueLight

We are in the world, but we are not of the world (John 15:19).

fall fox

Wonderful quote ! ! !

A lot of " stuff " happened after Vll that shouldn’t have. I don’t know where the clergy went, but they certainly stopped being the Shepperd’s they should have been. Even a small thing, maybe not so small, like the word Minister. That was always reserved for the clergy. not we have a Lay Minister for this, and a Lay Minister for that, and a Lay Minister for everything. I know we have a Priest crisis but using the word Minister gives a false connotation to those that shouldn’t be identified that way.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

For Midnight Mass, I would like the Judas Priest hit, “Living After Midnight.” Who is with me?

In all seriousness, I believe we have a major problem in our particular parish. We have wonderful cantors, but practically no one sings along. I try to, but I don’t have the best voice, so I get a little bit bashful if no one else is joining in.

I think that’s part of the reason other people rarely sing, but I also think people don’t even realize that it’s welcome for them to do so, there’s a sort of Puritanic misery at Mass in our parish right now. The Mass is a celebration, not a funeral.

Also, I don’t know if parishioners were encouraged to sing in the old days, because every time you do it, the older folks look at you like you’ve lost your [edited] mind.

 

[fall_fox]

This may not be the place, but I just have to let off steam somewhere.

I was at a Catholic Mass last Sunday (where we usually do not attend) and the homily was on the changes to take place in November/Advent. I thought I had a pretty sound understanding of the reasons for the changes - more consistent with the Latin Mass which is OK. I can handle change - have made a lot of them in my life. However, the priest did two things which surprised me, made me wonder what else is behind the changes and uncertain what else is coming.

One thing that really caught my attention is he mentioned, from the altar, the music of Haugen, Haas and someone else and suggested that we need to get away from secular influences like popular composers and performers. He tied them to what he called the secularization of the Church. In fact, the both wrote some meaningful lyrics and singable music. In many churches, Catholics actually sang!

fallfox

At my Parish we have a wonderful Music coordinator, at other Parishes not so much.
Just because something is in our missalette or hymnal, doesn’t necessarily mean that a song doesn’t have problems as far as he Catholic Church is concerned. Some have heretical problems. Oh they can "sound " great and be very singable, but that isn’t the total goal of our music. I’m sure you have heard of subliminal messages, well this music can be like that only it’s not so subliminal. As intelligent adults, we can usually spot something that is off kilter as far as our faith is concerned, but what about a more impressionable mind. It may sound good, it may be fun to sing, and because of that it is easy for the mind of accept something that is off kilter.
I really applaud this Orthodox Priest for trying to guide his parish, good for him.
I just wish he could be aware of the pride that is being shown toward him here at CAF.

OHANA
The other thing that was implied was that these things had to happen inf order for us to avoid damnation. It was in part, a real fire and brimstone homily.

As I thought about these messages, at first I was annoyed, then sort of angry, but now after a day of reflection, I just want to cry. I think our church is headed back to pre-vatican 2 and I remember how cut off it was from the world we are suppoed to evangelize …

fallfox
Real fire and brimstone, do you understand how dangerous that is for a Pastor to do? Pastors today need to conjol their flock so that they will continue to support the Parish as they should. He needs to tell them how gentle Jesus is toward us and that everything will be all right, everyone goes to heaven. Well not everyone will, there are consiquences to our actions and sometimes, just sometimes a little fire and brimstone is just what is needed.
There is now about 30% of those that are calling themselves Catholics that are going to and supporting the Church. If a Pastor has too strong a message and the Parisioners get upset and withhold some or most of their support, where is the money going to come from to pay that electric bill, replace that boiler, to get rid of that black mold that has been found. Your paris, sorry to say is also a busniss that needs to be cared for.
Back in the 1950’s, approximately 75% of those that called themselves Catholics went to and supported the Church. I can’t say how cutoff we were, but I’d say proof is in the pudding. Just look at the numbers. I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 67 yrs old, and I don’t remember being cutoff from anyone of course that wasn’t my mindset at the time. I just tried to serve mass as much as I could, I loved the mass. Today I still do, and maybe in some ways even better because of the English. There was an atmosphere that pre-Vll the Church had that I’m hoping will be recaptured with the revised Mass.

OHANA
I can handle change and can even see that we may need some re-ordering. I do not see that we need meaness of spirit.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This may not be the place, but I just have to let off steam somewhere.

I was at a Catholic Mass last Sunday (where we usually do not attend) and the homily was on the changes to take place in November/Advent. I thought I had a pretty sound understanding of the reasons for the changes - more consistent with the Latin Mass which is OK. I can handle change - have made a lot of them in my life. However, the priest did two things which surprised me, made me wonder what else is behind the changes and uncertain what else is coming.

One thing that really caught my attention is he mentioned, from the altar, the music of Haugen, Haas and someone else and suggested that we need to get away from secular influences like popular composers and performers. He tied them to what he called the secularization of the Church. In fact, the both wrote some meaningful lyrics and singable music. In many churches, Catholics actually sang!

The other thing that was implied was that these things had to happen inf order for us to avoid damnation. It was in part, a real fire and brimstone homily.

As I thought about these messages, at first I was annoyed, then sort of angry, but now after a day of reflection, I just want to cry. I think our church is headed back to pre-vatican 2 and I remember how cut off it was from the world we are suppoed to evangelize …

I can handle change and can even see that we may need some re-ordering. I do not see that we need meaness of spirit.

I wish I had a priest like that here. We need more priests like this one. You dont know how luck you are to have heard such a priest. He is obedient to the holy father and he is trying to bring the Church back to God and away from the world. Just stop thinking about yourself and think about God first. You should fear the day of judgment in which God will chose His sheep.

you should do everything you can to make the CC look beautifull and faithfull to God. So we can have a better chance of being saved and make God happy. We have to make God happy first.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Amen! Or even in parishes around me where I could become a parishoner.

Due to the heavy rotation of Haugen & Hass in my parish, I prefer Daily Mass where there is no music. On Sundays, I prefer an Eastern Catholic Church about twenty minutes away.

I am with you. Going to Mass on Sundays is quite upsetting to me because of the horrible music and a woman who thinks she is a star when singing those dreadfull songs.

 

[liturgyluver]

For Midnight Mass, I would like the Judas Priest hit, “Living After Midnight.” Who is with me?

In all seriousness, I believe we have a major problem in our particular parish. We have wonderful cantors, but practically no one sings along. I try to, but I don’t have the best voice, so I get a little bit bashful if no one else is joining in.

I think that’s part of the reason other people rarely sing, but I also think people don’t even realize that it’s welcome for them to do so, there’s a sort of Puritanic misery at Mass in our parish right now. The Mass is a celebration, not a funeral.

Also, I don’t know if parishioners were encouraged to sing in the old days, because every time you do it, the older folks look at you like you’ve lost your [edited] mind.

You’re not alone…there are other threads about the lack of singing in Catholic churches. Don’t worry about your voice, if you want to sing just do so - the hymn is there to be sung along to, not for background music, and certainly not for the cantor to sing alone to.

And as for those miserable people who stare at you, how dare they! It’s shameful enough that people don’t sing, but to make people feel guilty for singing is completey unacceptable! Just sing louder, and stare back at them, and at the end of mass say “Why weren’t you singing the hymns?” I bet they will just look embarrassed and walk away. Perhaps they might also realise that they are supposed to sing, (and if they don’t why don’t they go to a mass without music.)

Also mention it to your parish priest…they really dislike it when the problem is pointed out to them, but if you do this they may take more interest in the music, and encourage the congregation by putting something in the newsletter or mentioning it in the notices.