SPLIT: Offended by term NO Church

[Spelling]

I think political correctness like this makes sense, but only to a point. On the one hand it’s good to be nice, on the other hand people should not take undue offense if someone benignly uses an apparently offensive term out of habit or simply because he feels it’s more accurate or appropriate to the discussion.

That’s sort of the entire point. I have never seen anyone (either here or in real life) use the label “NO Mass” or “Novus Ordo Mass” who actually preferred the OF Mass. It’s used exclusively in my experience by those who prefer the EF Mass and have a continued need to quietly denigrate the OF Mass.

Seeing that time after time after time makes its use ever more repugnant.

 

[Digitonomy]

The MP uses Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form. That’s the language used when the Pope introduced the MP.

Actually, it uses “ordinary Form.” Not sure why “Form” is capitalized, it may be the German influence. It also uses “ordinary expression,” “normal Form,” “new Missal,” “new books,” “new rite.”

Spelling:

I would like to say that I don’t know why people cling to using “NO” or “Novus Ordo” but I do…Either they specifically want to be offensive or they just don’t want to be told what to do by those they question.

I don’t cling to using “NO” - I rarely use it. However, I agree that I and others don’t want to be told what to do by those (like yourself) that we question. Just as you don’t want to be told what to do by those (like myself) that you question.

 

[Bookcat]

The motu proprio did not specify a “correct term.” “Ordinary form” was one of several phrases used by the Holy Father to describe the “new rite.”

Yes he used several terms …but never “novus ordo” nor does the Church use this term.

 

[Spelling]

This is the point where I because it’s pointless to argue with proponents of political correctness.

Actually, the thought that NO could ever be taken as the word and not the abbreviation never ever struck me until on this forum. People are just way too petty.

You keep trying to spin things but you’re just drilling yourself in deeper and deeper. The use of “NO Mass” and “Novus Ordo Mass” is offensive to many. Even here, someone seems to be able to use EF Mass yet they still resort to “NO Mass.” How sad.

It’s not a matter of people being “petty.” It’s about people being rude and then trying to justify their answers.

 

[Spelling]

Yes he used several terms …but never “novus ordo” nor does the Church use this term.

Correct.

You’ll never see people stop using it here until it’s banned. Like “colored” or even “negro” in some places, it’s a quiet way to demean something one does not like.

 

[Spelling]

…However, I agree that I and others don’t want to be told what to do by those (like yourself) that we question. Just as you don’t want to be told what to do by those (like myself) that you question.

Of course you don’t! You would rather remain offensive! That’s NEVER been in question!

 

[Digitonomy]

That’s sort of the entire point. I have never seen anyone (either here or in real life) use the label “NO Mass” or “Novus Ordo Mass” who actually preferred the OF Mass. It’s used exclusively in my experience by those who prefer the EF Mass and have a continued need to quietly denigrate the OF Mass.

If you do a search of my posts you’ll find I have used it occasionally. And now let me congratulate you for meeting someone using “NO” who prefers the OF mass.

It is in fact a more accurate term in some cases, e.g. if we are talking about how widespread acceptance of the NO was in 1969. It wasn’t the ordinary form yet, and no one had ever heard that term anyway. On the other hand, the Church used the name Novus Ordo on the missal.

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Seeing that time after time after time makes its use ever more repugnant.

I don’t like to focus on ad hominem issues, but I notice that you are a new member - could it be that your previous experience (outside of this board) has been with a contentious lot that likes to denigrate the OF?

 

[Bookcat]

Correct.

You’ll never see people stop using it here until it’s banned. Like “colored” or even “negro” in some places, it’s a quiet way to demean something one does not like.

Though one needs to quickly add…that many use it cause it entered into a kinda of common use in the past…and they do not intend it in any negative way…

But certainly it is not the term to use really.

 

[Digitonomy]

Yes he used several terms …but never “novus ordo” nor does the Church use this term.

Not clear how we would define whether the Church uses or does not use the term. I can however provide cites for official use by Paul VI:

Usus novi Ordinis Missae minime quidem sacerdotum vel christifidelium arbitrio permittitur. Instructione autem edita die quarto decimo mensis Iunii anno millesimo nongentesimo septuagesimo primo provisum est, ut Missae celebratio antiquo ritu sineretur, facultate data ab Ordinario, tantummodo sacerdotibus aetate provectis vel infirmis, qui Divinum Sacrificium sine populo offerrent. Novus Ordo promulgatus est, ut in locum veteris substitueretur post maturam deliberationem, atque ad exsequendas normas quae a Concilio Vaticano II impertitae sunt.

and according to Wikipedia:

In advance of the 1969 decision on the form of the revision of the liturgy, a preliminary draft of two sections of the Roman Missal was published. The section containing the unvarying part of the Mass had the Latin title Ordo Missae (Ordinary of the Mass), the same title that the equivalent section had in previous editions of the Missal. It was unremarkably referred to as the “novus Ordo Missae” — “the new Ordinary of the Mass”

I don’t have a link, but a few years ago a member here noted that his copy of the newly published missal 40 years ago had “Novus Ordo Missae” printed on the cover.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Of course you don’t! You would rather remain offensive! That’s NEVER been in question!

I am 45 and the only mass I have every realy know is the New mass. My parish celebrate only the new mass and when specking to people about things all I hear is the mass or the Old latin mass. or just the OLD mass. Should I as someone that does love to on the rare occassion go to the next town to a EF Mass be offened by it bing refferred to as the OLD mass?

Spelling, Lighten up. it is and always will be, unless another form comes into being the NEW mass the novus ordo “NO”. The term comes from the fact that the missal reffers to the Order of the Mass and hence this was the NEW order of the mass. the novus ordo in latin.

Also the poster who posted about using Church and church is correct.

 

[malphono]

Until 7-07-2007, the terms OF & EF weren’t even heard of. People have gotten so super sensitive that its even difficult to hold a conversation. Lighten up troops.

Yes, indeed. It’s little more than “political correctness” taken to the extreme. I know plenty of clergy (even bishops) who consistently use the term “Novus Ordo” (and some of them are even fans of it).

 

[Bookcat]

Not clear how we would define whether the Church uses or does not use the term. I can however provide cites for official use by Paul VI:and according to Wikipedia:I don’t have a link, but a few years ago a member here noted that his copy of the newly published missal 40 years ago had “Novus Ordo Missae” printed on the cover.

Yes it is clear how the Church calls the Mass. It is the Mass…the Liturgy…the Eucharist. And if one wants to get into rite…it is the Roman Rite…and the ordinary form of the Roman Rite etc etc…not Novus Ordo.

As for the quotes in Latin you referenced…these were Latin texts referring in Latin to the New Order of Mass…after it was issued…differing from the former order. Saying it is the new one… It was not a “name”.

When my 2006 Toyota Corolla came out…and I bought it…I could say “I have the new toyota” and this would be accurate. Now that it is 2011 if I were to point to that car and say I have the new Toyota …I would not be accurate. I would have to say it was the 2006 Toyota Corolla (though I could perhaps produce a booklet that has “New Toyota Corolla” from that time period…on the cover…it is in English of course…but if it had been in Latin…well it would have said it in Latin…)

Same goes here.

Soon we will have the New Translation in English of the Roman Missal…one could call it the “new missal” and if one was writing in Latin …your going to put that in Latin…but in 40 years…it is not going to be referred to that way…

 

[Love_Divine]

Good grief! You guys are still going on about this?

Did it ever occur to you to give a person the benefit of the doubt? The accusations made against me? Wow! .

First
I’ve never read the MP. In fact, I can’t even call it by its proper name because I can’t remember Latin terms that well. (I still get Novus and Nuvos Ordo mistaken at times) I very vaguely even know what it’s about or its purpose.

Second
Any terms I’ve used, I innocently got off of wdtprs.com. Because Fr. Z uses terms inter-changeably I thought OF stood for “Old Form” and when it comes to the TLM, I use whatever term comes to mind first.

Third
I didn’t distinguish between NO Mass and TLM, EF, or whatever you want to call it Mass because I use it to refer to two different churches (as in buildings) I attend in two different cities. It’s a lot shorter than typing something like at the NO Mass I attend in another church I go to…"

Fourth
I don’t like to get caught up in labels. Apparently because I believe in all of what the church teaches and, I prefer to go to Mass, not to have fun, but because it’s the most Holy Sacrifice, and because of the lack of Mass choices I have, I prefer to just drive to another city for the FSSP’s TLM because I know I’ll get that there, I’m a “Traditionalist.” No, I’m a Catholic, whose beliefs are orthodox with what the Catholic Church teaches.

Fifth
As far as separating the two and making them look like different rites,I don’t think you need my use of NO church to do that. Look at the churches who offer both Masses as it is. They do a fine job themselves making the two Masses look like different rites, most likely unintentionally.

Sixth
Just so you’re all aware, you’re making your uncharitable accusations towards someone who was a revert, and within less than three months actually returned to the church. Do you think maybe, just maybe, all these writings that the pope put out in the past few years I might not have got around to reading yet?

 

[Bookcat]

I know plenty of clergy (even bishops) who consistently use the term “Novus Ordo” (and some of them are even fans of it).

Yes that is cause …unfortunately it got popularized that way years back…
but Church does not use this term…and it is not really the correct term.

 

[micahmike]

LOL, some people just live for excuses to get offended.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This is the point where I because it’s pointless to argue with proponents of political correctness.

Actually, the thought that NO could ever be taken as the word and not the abbreviation never ever struck me until on this forum. People are just way too petty.

It is the Holy Father who calls the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass such.

So are you trying to tell us that he is a “proponent of political correctness”?

I think the petty people are the ones who after finding out that something like this offends keep on doing it regardless and blame the other for being offended.

 

[Love_Divine]

LOL, some people just live for excuses to get offended.

I should just start getting offended everytime someone posts a comment stereotyping young people as people who won’t come to church unless the music is “more upbeat and folky.”

 

[Digitonomy]

As for the quotes in Latin you referenced…these were Latin texts referring in Latin to the New Order of Mass…after it was issued…differing from the former order. It was not a “name”.

So you’re saying Novus Ordo is merely a descriptive term sometimes found in official use. Funny, that’s exactly what I said about Ordinary Form.

Bookcat:

When my 2006 Toyota Corolla came out…and I bought it…I could say “I have the new toyota” and this would be accurate. Now that it is 2011 if I were to point to that car and say I have the new Toyota …I would not be accurate.

Several newer Toyotas have come out since then. A better example would be when people refer to “new highway 39” which was built decades ago. So long as “old highway 39” is still around, people will understand what “new highway 39” is. Not only that, the phrase is accurate (if unnecessary), until an even newer highway 39 gets built. And while the highway engineer and construction workers from that era might get offended if an old-timer insulted the new road and clearly preferred the charms of the old highway, no one is likely to hold it against him that he calls it the “new highway.”

 

[Bookcat]

So you’re saying Novus Ordo is merely a descriptive term sometimes found in official use. Funny, that’s exactly what I said about Ordinary Form.

Well…I think it is actually more than a descriptive here…but yes Pope Benedict XVI refers to them both by a couple of names (never Novus Ordo)

Several newer Toyotas have come out since then. A better example would be when people refer to “new highway 39” which was built decades ago. So long as “old highway 39” is still around, people will understand what “new highway 39” is. Not only that, the phrase is accurate (if unnecessary), until an even newer highway 39 gets built. And while the highway engineer and construction workers from that era might get offended if an old-timer insulted the new road and clearly preferred the charms of the old highway, no one is likely to hold it against him that he calls it the “new highway.”

Well…there have actually been a Changes by other Popes too since the…so it should be then the New New Order…

But I think the Toyota analogy or the New Translation of the Missal…still hold ground.

 

[Havard]

Though one needs to quickly add…that many use it cause it entered into a kinda of common use in the past…and they do not intend it in any negative way…

But certainly it is not the term to use really.

I’ve seen people continue to use the spelling Moslem, which apparently is offensive to Muslims because pronounced this way, it means “evil” in Arabic.