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Jerry-Jet
Guest
We are gracefully saved by that faith which continues through God willed works unto death.
Split:OSAS (from Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants)
- Status
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guanophore
Guest
It does exist! Granted it is only in one place they occur together…
“You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
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CentralFLJames
Guest
It all has to start with Actual Grace which God uses to beckon us to Him. He can use this kind of grace to enlighten our minds, to give us ephiphanies, or manifest inspiration from others (even those who are not in a state of sanctifying grace) to overcome the moral hurdles or intellectual obstacles etc. that conspire to make even the most obstinate sinner open to accepting Him. Once that unrepentant sinner responds to Actual Grace (or if an infant the grace that operates in its parent that inspires them to dedicate that child to The Lord) he can chose to reform his life (repent) and accept Christ through baptism.
Once the soul that sanctifies itself to the Lord through Baptism it is flooded with Sanctifying Grace (aka deifying grace). This is the Grace that is eternal and will carry be a part of the repentant and baptised soul for eternity (unless he reverts into apostasy and never again re-repents).
What those who have a hangup on works need to realize is that Sanctifying Grace is supernatural and IT is what does the works. Protestants have a poor understanding of Grace and the justification-sanctification process. That taken with anti-Catholic teachings that polarize their world-view around polemics against Apostolic Teaching make them easy prey to false teachings. If Protestants could accept Works as GRACE in action then it is easy to see that “we can’t boast of our works” since it is God’s grace that is working in us and doing things impossible for anyone to do apart from Grace. In other words a person in grace is a NEW CREATURE and is not the “old me” and what works we do are a consequence of Grace and ARE Grace doing God’s works. In essence its IMPOSSIBLE to not have good works if one is in a state of grace since Grace is living and supernatural and is never dormant or idle - grace MUST operate - even if the works of grace are transparent to outward observers as it works to transform the inner man.
Grace and Works are as inseparable as Jesus is to the Soul that accepts Him. Only grave sin can seperate us from Jesus and make our works our own - and of no merit.
James
Once the soul that sanctifies itself to the Lord through Baptism it is flooded with Sanctifying Grace (aka deifying grace). This is the Grace that is eternal and will carry be a part of the repentant and baptised soul for eternity (unless he reverts into apostasy and never again re-repents).
What those who have a hangup on works need to realize is that Sanctifying Grace is supernatural and IT is what does the works. Protestants have a poor understanding of Grace and the justification-sanctification process. That taken with anti-Catholic teachings that polarize their world-view around polemics against Apostolic Teaching make them easy prey to false teachings. If Protestants could accept Works as GRACE in action then it is easy to see that “we can’t boast of our works” since it is God’s grace that is working in us and doing things impossible for anyone to do apart from Grace. In other words a person in grace is a NEW CREATURE and is not the “old me” and what works we do are a consequence of Grace and ARE Grace doing God’s works. In essence its IMPOSSIBLE to not have good works if one is in a state of grace since Grace is living and supernatural and is never dormant or idle - grace MUST operate - even if the works of grace are transparent to outward observers as it works to transform the inner man.
Grace and Works are as inseparable as Jesus is to the Soul that accepts Him. Only grave sin can seperate us from Jesus and make our works our own - and of no merit.
James
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ppasa316
Guest
The key word in “Justify - Justification” This word means that a person is once for all pronounced not guilty before God. The righteousness on Christ is credited to the belivers life. The moment that someone places faith in Christ. If a person is declared righteousness by faith then it not of works. Again works is a by product of one’s faith. You see the person is already saved before any works is done. That doesn’t mean that a believer can sin all he wants as scripture tells us that he chastens those who sin. God sees that person through the lens of Christs righteousness. Deut 25:1 helps support this since it is a legal term. Paul also uses the word the same way in Romans. Rom 4:2-4, 5:1, Gal 3:6. Eternal life according to scripture cannot be earned. It is a free gift that comes as a result of believing in Christ. Jn 6:47, Rom 6:23, Rev 21:6 "I will give of the fountain of the water of life FREELY to him who thirsts. This scripture doesn’t say anything that we must do to receive of the water of life. It is a free gift.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
But how does that show Faith alone in which you are claiming?? You still haven’t answered my questionThe key word in “Justify - Justification” This word means that a person is once for all pronounced not guilty before God. The righteousness on Christ is credited to the belivers life. The moment that someone places faith in Christ. If a person is declared righteousness by faith then it not of works. Again works is a by product of one’s faith. You see the person is already saved before any works is done. That doesn’t mean that a believer can sin all he wants as scripture tells us that he chastens those who sin. God sees that person through the lens of Christs righteousness. Deut 25:1 helps support this since it is a legal term. Paul also uses the word the same way in Romans. Rom 4:2-4, 5:1, Gal 3:6. Eternal life according to scripture cannot be earned. It is a free gift that comes as a result of believing in Christ. Jn 6:47, Rom 6:23, Rev 21:6 "I will give of the fountain of the water of life FREELY to him who thirsts. This scripture doesn’t say anything that we must do to receive of the water of life. It is a free gift.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, however, it is like being acquitted. It does not mean that charges cannot be refiled if the same offense is committed again.
Jesus imparts his righteousness in actuality. If we later decide we no longer want to be “in Christ” by spurning the Son of God afresh, then there remains no sacrifice for sins. 
Such a statement is not scripturally supportable.
Yes. this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
it also "completes’ our faith, and we are justified in our works.
Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of “salvation”.
The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation that are completed at baptism, some that are being worked out in this life, and some that are not completed until the end of our life on earth.
Indeed! Since mortal sin is an expression of lack of faith, and separates us from God, we are in danger of being ‘cut off’ and thrown into the fire.
This is Catholic teaching.
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ppasa316
Guest
This is the last time. If you have faith your are justified. Doesn’t have anything to do with works. Abraham was justified by faith. He didn’t do anything to earn salvation. It was faith alone. Again his works are a by product of his faith. It doesn’t matter what the Catholic church teaches. It is what God’s Word Says. As a Christian i am saved by faith when i gave my lift to Christ. Yes I do works as obedience to Him but not to earn salvation. It is already done. "It is finished. I gave you plenty of scriptures. The great thing about it is I don’t have to go by what man or church says but by God’s Word. Its done. When I die I will be in Heaven because of my faith. Nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ. I will receive my rewards by my works. Jesus said Jn 6:47 “Truly, truly i say to you he who BELIEVES has eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Read it again and ask yourself what does this scripture mean. Gal 2:16 “a man is Not justified by the works of the Law but through Faith in Christ Jesus.” What does this mean?
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ppasa316
Guest
Yes, however, it is like being acquitted. It does not mean that charges cannot be refiled if the same offense is committed again.
Such a statement is not scripturally supportable.
Yes. this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
it also "completes’ our faith, and we are justified in our works.
Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of “salvation”.
The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation that are completed at baptism, some that are being worked out in this life, and some that are not completed until the end of our life on earth.
Indeed! Since mortal sin is an expression of lack of faith, and separates us from God, we are in danger of being ‘cut off’ and thrown into the fire.
This is Catholic teaching.
ppasa316;4884046:
Don’t go by what man or the Catholic church teaches but what does God say in His Word. It is not hard the bereans did it after paul taught.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Really? Let’s see about that.guanophore;4885261:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I just showed you that right up there. Now I would say that you need to apply your own exhortation to yourself because you have obviously contradicted the Word of God already right here.Don’t go by what man or the Catholic church teaches but what does God say in His Word. It is not hard the bereans did it after paul taught.
So now…let us see if you are as noble as these exemplary Bereans.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
Then you truly do not understand James 2:20-26 do you. Faith without works is dead. How much more clearer that what is stated.This is the last time. If you have faith your are justified. Doesn’t have anything to do with works. Abraham was justified by faith. He didn’t do anything to earn salvation. It was faith alone. Again his works are a by product of his faith. It doesn’t matter what the Catholic church teaches. It is what God’s Word Says. As a Christian i am saved by faith when i gave my lift to Christ. Yes I do works as obedience to Him but not to earn salvation. It is already done. "It is finished. I gave you plenty of scriptures. The great thing about it is I don’t have to go by what man or church says but by God’s Word. Its done. When I die I will be in Heaven because of my faith. Nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ. I will receive my rewards by my works. Jesus said Jn 6:47 “Truly, truly i say to you he who BELIEVES has eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Read it again and ask yourself what does this scripture mean. Gal 2:16 “a man is Not justified by the works of the Law but through Faith in Christ Jesus.” What does this mean?
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
From the Haydock Bible Commentary
er. 21. Was not Abraham…justified by works? We may observe, that St. James here brings the very same examples of Abraham and Rahab, which it is likely he knew some had miscontrued in St. Paul, as if the great apostle of the Gentiles had taught that faith alone was sufficient to salvation. But St. Paul neither excludes good works done by faith, when he commends faith, excluding only the works of the law of Moses, as insufficient to a true justification. See Romans iii. 27. And St. James by requiring good works does not exclude faith, but only teacheth that faith alone is not enough. This is what he clearly expresseth here in the 22nd and in the 24th verse. Man, says he, is justified, and not by faith only. And (ver. 22.) seest thou that faith did co-operate with Abraham’s works, and by works faith was made perfect. In fine, we must take notice, that when St. James here brings the example of Abraham offering his son Isaac, to shew that he was justified by works, his meaning is not that Abraham then began first to be justified, but that he then received an increase of his justice. He was justified at least from his first being called, and began then to believe and to do good works. It is true his faith was made perfect, and his justice increased, when he was willing to sacrifice his son. (Witham)
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sodak
Guest
We’ve likewise given you plenty of scriptures which you’ve chosen to ignore. Some which contradict what you are saying…
Where is THAT in the Bible? God’s word is found in his Church. The one that Christ instituted and promised to keep free from error.
That sounds like a works belief. When I die, if I make it to Heaven, it will be by the grace of God, since I don’t deserve to even look at Heaven from a distance. And that’s no exaggeration either.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
Jn 6:47 shows that we must have faithThis is the last time. If you have faith your are justified. Doesn’t have anything to do with works. Abraham was justified by faith. He didn’t do anything to earn salvation. It was faith alone. Again his works are a by product of his faith. It doesn’t matter what the Catholic church teaches. It is what God’s Word Says. As a Christian i am saved by faith when i gave my lift to Christ. Yes I do works as obedience to Him but not to earn salvation. It is already done. "It is finished. I gave you plenty of scriptures. The great thing about it is I don’t have to go by what man or church says but by God’s Word. Its done. When I die I will be in Heaven because of my faith. Nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ. I will receive my rewards by my works. Jesus said Jn 6:47 “Truly, truly i say to you he who BELIEVES has eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Read it again and ask yourself what does this scripture mean. Gal 2:16 “a man is Not justified by the works of the Law but through Faith in Christ Jesus.” What does this mean?
hus Jesus Christ concludes the first part of his discourse: “Amen, amen, he that believeth in me, hath everlasting life;” which shews that faith is a necessary predisposition to the heavenly bread.
Galatians 2:16
Ver. 16. &c. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law. St. Paul, to the end of the chapter, seems to continue his discourse to St. Peter, but chiefly to the Jewish Galatians, to shew that both the Gentiles, whom the Jews called and looked upon as sinners, and also the Jews, when converted, could only hope to be justified and saved by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law. — But if while we seek to be justified in Christ, by faith in him, and by his grace, we ourselves also are found sinners, as the false doctors teach you, and not to be justified but by the ceremonies and works of the law of Moses, this blasphemous consequence must follow, that Christ is the minister and author of sin, by making us believe that by faith in him, and complying with his doctrine, we may be justified and saved. For thus we must be considered transgressors, unless we renew and build again what Christ and we have destroyed. — For by the law I am dead to the law. That is, says St. Jerome, by the evangelical law of Christ I am dead to the ancient law and its ceremonies. Others expound it, that by the law and its types and figures, and by the predictions contained in the law, I know the Mosaical law hath now ceased, in which sense he might say, by the law I am dead to the law. — If justice. That is, if justification and salvation be to be had, or could have been had by the works of the law; therefore Christ died in vain, and it was not necessary that he should become our Redeemer. (Witham)
Shows that we aren’t saved by the works of the law. We don’t believe in saved by works of law. We believe in works of Christ. The corporal and spiritual works of mercy. Matthew 25:31-46 list these as the reason for the salvation of the saved, and the omission of them as the reason for damnation. part 1
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tobinatorstark
Guest
Part 2 from the Haydock Bible Commentary Matthew 25:31-46 (which just happens to be the daily readings for Catholics)This is the last time. If you have faith your are justified. Doesn’t have anything to do with works. Abraham was justified by faith. He didn’t do anything to earn salvation. It was faith alone. Again his works are a by product of his faith. It doesn’t matter what the Catholic church teaches. It is what God’s Word Says. As a Christian i am saved by faith when i gave my lift to Christ. Yes I do works as obedience to Him but not to earn salvation. It is already done. "It is finished. I gave you plenty of scriptures. The great thing about it is I don’t have to go by what man or church says but by God’s Word. Its done. When I die I will be in Heaven because of my faith. Nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ. I will receive my rewards by my works. Jesus said Jn 6:47 “Truly, truly i say to you he who BELIEVES has eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Read it again and ask yourself what does this scripture mean. Gal 2:16 “a man is Not justified by the works of the Law but through Faith in Christ Jesus.” What does this mean?
Ver. 34. Shall the king say to them … on his right hand. By setting forth to all the world the good works of his faithful servants, the Sovereign Judge silences the murmurs of the reprobate, who might otherwise object that they had it not in their power to do good. In the same manner, the conduct of the wise virgins was the condemnation of the foolish ones; the diligence of the faithful servant, of the sloth and drunkenness of the idle one; the zeal of the servants who multiplied the talents entrusted to them, of him that hid his talent in the ground; and the fervour of the observers of the commandments, of the negligence and remissness of those who are ever transgressing them. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — These works of mercy, says St. Augustine, prevail towards life everlasting, and to the blotting out of former sins; in Psalm xlix.
Ver. 35. For I was hungry, &c. We may take notice, that the wicked at the day of judgment, are said to be condemned for having omitted to perform good works. (Witham) — St. Augustine, in his 33d sermon, brings a beautiful reason why the kingdom of heaven is bestowed solely upon the works of mercy, and eternal damnation for the neglect of them; viz. because, however just a man may be, still he has many failings to atone for, on account of which the kingdom of heaven might be justly denied him: but because he has shewn mercy to his neighbours, he deserves in like manner to have mercy shewn him. But the wicked, not having shewn mercy to their neighbours, nor redeemed their sins by alms-deeds, or the like, are thus delivered up to eternal damnation. (Jansenius, concord.) — Jesus Christ only mentions one species of good works, though others may be equally meritorious; for the means of salvation are not precisely the same for all the saints; some are saved by poverty, others by solitude, and each by that virtue which he shall have practised in the greatest degree of perfection.
Ver. 36. And you visited me. How easy are the things our Saviour requires at our hands! He will not say at the day of judgment: “I was in prison, and you delivered me; I was sick, and you healed me; but only this, you visited me, you came to me.” (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — This seems particularly addressed to Christians engaged in the cares of the world, whose salvation principally depends on the practice of works of mercy.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
part 3
Ver. 40. As long as you did it to one of these, my least brethren. Can there be a more forcible motive to charity, than the assurance of revelation that the Son of God will accept all good of offices done to the afflicted, as done to himself. This condescension of the part of Jesus Christ, will fill the elect with sentiments of profound admiration and astonishment. — Then with fire in his eyes, and terror in his countenance, he shall say to the wicked: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. It was not originally created for rebellious man; for man was created subsequently to the fall and damnation of the rebel angels: and though he imitated their transgression, the sentence of everlasting burning was reversed by Jesus Christ … By his blood man has been redeemed from eternal punishment. If many, notwithstanding, are yet condemned to never-ending flames, they are punished under the quality of the slaves of the devil: for as they have wilfully followed his rebellious example, they must expect with him to participate in his torments. (Consult. i. John iii. 8.)
Ver. 41. Prepared for the devil. When Christ invited the just to his heavenly kingdom, he calls it a kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world; a kingdom of inexpressible happiness, which from all eternity he designed for those who he knew would faithfully serve him. But, when he pronounces the sentence of the reprobate, he speaks in a widely different manner. He calls it an everlasting fire, prepared not for them, but for the devils and wicked spirits, their accomplices. They have chosen to cast themselves into it; they must therefore look upon themselves as the authors of all their miseries and sufferings. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — The pain of loss is here expressed by depart from me, and the pain of sense by eternal fire. (Menochius and Maldonatus)
Ver. 42. Gave me not. Jesus Christ chargeth them not here with a want of faith, but with a want of good works. They certainly believed, but they attended not to good works; as if a dead faith, i.e. a faith not working by charity, could bring them to heaven. (St. Augustine, de fide & oper. chap. xv. and ad Dulcit. q. 2. ad 4.) — Jesus Christ suffers his members to want, in mercy to them, and to afford others an opportunity of shewing their love for him, and of redeeming their sins by alms-deeds, as was said to the king of the Chaldeans, peccata tua eleemosynis redime. (Daniel iv.)
Ver. 46. Everlasting punishment. The rewards and torments of a future life are declared by Jesus Christ, who is truth itself, to be eternal. Let no one be found to argue hence against the goodness and mercy of God, for punishing sins committed in time with punishments that are eternal. For 1. according to human laws, we see forgery and other crimes punished by death, which is in some measure an eternal exclusion from society. 2. The will of the sinner is such, that he would sin eternally if he could; it is an eternal God, a God of infinite majesty, who is offended. He essentially hates sin; and as, in hell there is no redemption, the sin eternally continuing, the hatred God bears to sin must eternally continue, and with it eternal punishment. The doctrine of those who pretend, with Origen, to question the eternity of the duration of hell’s torments; who can say with him, video infernum quasi senescentum, must encourage vice and embolden the sinner; for if the conviction of eternal torments is not capable to restrain his malice, the doctrine of temporal punishment would be a much less restraint. The present world would not be habitable, were there nothing for the wicked to apprehend after this life. There are many questions often proposed with regard to the situation and nature of hell-fire, &c. &c. &c. but in all these and similar objects of curiosity, it is best to adhere to the sage reflection of St. Augustine: “When we dispute upon a point very obscure, without any clear and certain documents from the holy Scripture, the presumption of man should stop short, and lean not more to one than the other side.” (lib. ii. de pecc. meritis et remiss. chap. xxxvi. ep. 190. ad Optat. chap. v. No. 16.) — On a recapitulation of this long and most interesting discourse, we may observe, that in the first place, it treats of those wars and persecutions which are to happen in the latter ages of the world; that it next proceeds to describe the heresies and schisms among Christians; the general propagation of the gospel; the great apostacy at the time of the Antichrist; and lastly, the grand and closing scene of the day of judgment. Thus these grand and momentous events are intimately connected with each other, and all materially regard the Church of Christ.
Ver. 40. As long as you did it to one of these, my least brethren. Can there be a more forcible motive to charity, than the assurance of revelation that the Son of God will accept all good of offices done to the afflicted, as done to himself. This condescension of the part of Jesus Christ, will fill the elect with sentiments of profound admiration and astonishment. — Then with fire in his eyes, and terror in his countenance, he shall say to the wicked: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. It was not originally created for rebellious man; for man was created subsequently to the fall and damnation of the rebel angels: and though he imitated their transgression, the sentence of everlasting burning was reversed by Jesus Christ … By his blood man has been redeemed from eternal punishment. If many, notwithstanding, are yet condemned to never-ending flames, they are punished under the quality of the slaves of the devil: for as they have wilfully followed his rebellious example, they must expect with him to participate in his torments. (Consult. i. John iii. 8.)
Ver. 41. Prepared for the devil. When Christ invited the just to his heavenly kingdom, he calls it a kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world; a kingdom of inexpressible happiness, which from all eternity he designed for those who he knew would faithfully serve him. But, when he pronounces the sentence of the reprobate, he speaks in a widely different manner. He calls it an everlasting fire, prepared not for them, but for the devils and wicked spirits, their accomplices. They have chosen to cast themselves into it; they must therefore look upon themselves as the authors of all their miseries and sufferings. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxx.) — The pain of loss is here expressed by depart from me, and the pain of sense by eternal fire. (Menochius and Maldonatus)
Ver. 42. Gave me not. Jesus Christ chargeth them not here with a want of faith, but with a want of good works. They certainly believed, but they attended not to good works; as if a dead faith, i.e. a faith not working by charity, could bring them to heaven. (St. Augustine, de fide & oper. chap. xv. and ad Dulcit. q. 2. ad 4.) — Jesus Christ suffers his members to want, in mercy to them, and to afford others an opportunity of shewing their love for him, and of redeeming their sins by alms-deeds, as was said to the king of the Chaldeans, peccata tua eleemosynis redime. (Daniel iv.)
Ver. 46. Everlasting punishment. The rewards and torments of a future life are declared by Jesus Christ, who is truth itself, to be eternal. Let no one be found to argue hence against the goodness and mercy of God, for punishing sins committed in time with punishments that are eternal. For 1. according to human laws, we see forgery and other crimes punished by death, which is in some measure an eternal exclusion from society. 2. The will of the sinner is such, that he would sin eternally if he could; it is an eternal God, a God of infinite majesty, who is offended. He essentially hates sin; and as, in hell there is no redemption, the sin eternally continuing, the hatred God bears to sin must eternally continue, and with it eternal punishment. The doctrine of those who pretend, with Origen, to question the eternity of the duration of hell’s torments; who can say with him, video infernum quasi senescentum, must encourage vice and embolden the sinner; for if the conviction of eternal torments is not capable to restrain his malice, the doctrine of temporal punishment would be a much less restraint. The present world would not be habitable, were there nothing for the wicked to apprehend after this life. There are many questions often proposed with regard to the situation and nature of hell-fire, &c. &c. &c. but in all these and similar objects of curiosity, it is best to adhere to the sage reflection of St. Augustine: “When we dispute upon a point very obscure, without any clear and certain documents from the holy Scripture, the presumption of man should stop short, and lean not more to one than the other side.” (lib. ii. de pecc. meritis et remiss. chap. xxxvi. ep. 190. ad Optat. chap. v. No. 16.) — On a recapitulation of this long and most interesting discourse, we may observe, that in the first place, it treats of those wars and persecutions which are to happen in the latter ages of the world; that it next proceeds to describe the heresies and schisms among Christians; the general propagation of the gospel; the great apostacy at the time of the Antichrist; and lastly, the grand and closing scene of the day of judgment. Thus these grand and momentous events are intimately connected with each other, and all materially regard the Church of Christ.
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tobinatorstark
Guest
guanophore;4885261:
Anything outside the truth, which the Catholic Church has, is false. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of truth. The Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ with his teaching. Those teaching that he taught us are not to be modified. The Magesterium of the Church is just that. So not to believe the Catholic Church is to go back on God’s word. God transmits his word to us in 3 ways. The Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magestrial teaching. We have 7 Sacraments which contain sanctifying grace, which is our share in the divine revelation. I am proud to say I believe in the Bible and that I accept the Catholic teachings and the anything else why which man set up (Protestantism and other)Yes, however, it is like being acquitted. It does not mean that charges cannot be refiled if the same offense is committed again.
Such a statement is not scripturally supportable.
Yes. this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
it also "completes’ our faith, and we are justified in our works.
Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of “salvation”.
The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation that are completed at baptism, some that are being worked out in this life, and some that are not completed until the end of our life on earth.
Indeed! Since mortal sin is an expression of lack of faith, and separates us from God, we are in danger of being ‘cut off’ and thrown into the fire.
This is Catholic teaching.
Don’t go by what man or the Catholic church teaches but what does God say in His Word. It is not hard the bereans did it after paul taught.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
ppasa, you are not subject to the same covenant as was Abraham. Your baptism in Christ makes you subject to the New Covenant. You can’t go back to the old covenant of Law that rules the Old Covenant or you become damned by it since you will still be in all your sins. This means you must follow ALL the NT teachings - not just those that seem like the minimal requirements. The lessons of Abraham are valid up to a point - but Christ has perfected the law and actually intensified it.This is the last time. If you have faith your are justified. Doesn’t have anything to do with works. Abraham was justified by faith. He didn’t do anything to earn salvation. It was faith alone. Again his works are a by product of his faith. It doesn’t matter what the Catholic church teaches. It is what God’s Word Says. As a Christian i am saved by faith when i gave my lift to Christ. Yes I do works as obedience to Him but not to earn salvation. It is already done. "It is finished. I gave you plenty of scriptures. The great thing about it is I don’t have to go by what man or church says but by God’s Word. Its done. When I die I will be in Heaven because of my faith. Nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ. I will receive my rewards by my works…?
Catholics here are not attacking your good and strong faith in Jesus. No, not at all. We are honestly trying to get you to look at the entire teachings since you are missing a lot of the other details.
You are simply being mislead that Justification and Sanctification is a one time event. It is not. The Protestant justification and sanctification theological framework was never before seen in The Church - it came from secular “theorists” and self styled academics. The entire goal of Protestantism is focused on “salvation” or “being saved” as if it was a prize to be forensically judged to be “won”. This is the WRONG focus since it makes heaven into a reward to be “won”. But heaven is an eternal home more than it is a prize. The goal is not “heaven” as a prize rather it is eternal beatitude with God in a love relationship as his inherited child. Our goal is nothing less than a two way LOVE RELATIONSHIP with God in the Trinity - all persons of the Divine Godhead! This is profound.
Jesus is our doorway. No one will be saved unless he is in a vibrant love relationship with God and The Trinity has taken residence in your soul and is sanctifying it and radically recomforming your nature. This is NOT a one time even. Repeat one does not enter into an eternal relationship with God by a single one time event.
One IS however initially justified through grace acting on the soul and one accepting Christ in faith. That initial justification happens in baptism where God radically reconfigures the fallen soul toward Himself and spiritually marks it as “His” and takes real residence within. That BEGINS the sanctification process.
But one must remain sanctified by NOT committing any grave sins or else God immediately vacates “the temple” of the soul so to speak. So if one commits a grave sin (fornication, adultery, masturbation, lust, slander to person’s reputation, abortion, murder etc.) God is GONE - PERIOD. The only way to be assured that God will come back and regain their sanctification is to sincerely repent of the error and confess those grave sins to an apostolic priest who will absolve those sins. IMMEDIATELY God will again take residence in the sinner soul and the sinner regains all the merits of grace that he has cooperated with over his entire life and God will continue healing that soul of the consequences of sin (forgiven sin still leaves scars so to speak). A non-Catholic does not have the means for assurances of being forgiven of his sins and regaining his sanctification - even if her repents. The only way a non-Catholic can regain God from a state of post-baptismal grave sin is by PERFECT CONTRITION. But this is EXTREMELY hard to accomplish. It takes a lot of repentance, examination of conscience and a commitment to never commit that sin again (one would rather die than to repeat it) and not many people have the discipline to do this (it can be done though with somone really desiring God’s grace). But ironically a person who is this in tune with God’s actual grace (repentant grace) must also eventually hear God’s call to be in His Church.
So the bottom line is “initial Justification” is just “the start of a right relationship”. That is an infant child’s love - but God wants us to grow and mature and most importantly “be holy as your Father is holy”. To keep oneself Holy one really needs the sacraments - especially in this day and age of abundent temptation and sin.
I am sorry to say this but most Christians are in the exact place Satan wants them - thinking they are safe in mortal sin. Being the walking dead and calling oneself “Christian” will not cut it after one commits a post-baptismal grave sin - no matter how happy one might feel or imagined that they are blessed. There is no direct reliable external correspondence between sanctification and outward appearances - especially if Satan wants you to go through life imaging you are “saved” when you are not (and there is no such thing until one is judged saved).
Bottom Line: Sanctification is in 3 stages - 1) initially at baptism, 2) through one’s entire life and 3) completed after death just before entrance into heaven (assuming Jesus recognizes and acknowledges you before The Father as His).
Don’t be one of those many calling themselves Christian who Jesus will say at their judgement “You called me Lord Lord and thought you spoke on my behalf but you choose to remain unrepentant of your sins and so I never made my home with you and I don’t know you.”
I hope you will hear and understand what I am saying,
James
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tobinatorstark
Guest
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Lux_Caelum
Guest
James, I have to say reading your posts sometimes leaves me in awe. Your ability to grasp the English vanacular and use it in a quick witted yet serious and factually based context is amazing. Are you friends with Dennis Miller? haha
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ppasa316
Guest
Sometimes you just have to go on and share the Word of God with someone else who has an open heart and a better understanding of God’s Word. It doesn’t say much of the Catholic Church when you have someone like Central James representing their catholic faith. We just have to remember that they are not arguing with you but with God.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
We just have to remember that they are not arguing with you but with God?
Pardon me please - I have the sound volume turned down on my end and must not have heard Gabriel’s trumpet announcing God’s presence. May I respecfully request that you give the hard of hearing a visual queue when you enter the forums?
I suppose some here would have insisted that our crusaders enter the field of combat with an open heart to the Muslims so they would be open to the truth too eh?
James
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